Smart people and Adam and Eve

This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
Post Reply
User avatar
Evil_Bert
Posts: 111
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 7:40 am
Location: Northern Nevada

Smart people and Adam and Eve

Post by Evil_Bert » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:50 pm

I'm sitting in EQ, listening to the group of well educated (for the most part) men talking about the Fall of Adam as it was literally a real event. They speak of Adam being a real person along with the figures in the BoM. I am just stunned to watch the mental gymnastics without any cog dis. Bizarre.
Illegitimi non carborundum.

User avatar
Hagoth
Posts: 7076
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:13 pm

Re: Smart people and Adam and Eve

Post by Hagoth » Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:59 pm

Evil_Bert wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:50 pm
I'm sitting in EQ, listening to the group of well educated (for the most part) men talking about the Fall of Adam as it was literally a real event. They speak of Adam being a real person along with the figures in the BoM. I am just stunned to watch the mental gymnastics without any cog dis. Bizarre.
I had a similar reaction when members of my Gospel Doctrine class were analyzing the choices of individual words attributed to Adam, Eve and God in Genesis, as if there had been a stenographer there jotting it all down. In English.

BTW what is meant in the temple when they say that the man and woman are symbolic? Does it mean that Tim and Sally from down the street are symbolically representing a real Adam and Eve, or does it mean the characters of Adam and Eve are symbols for humankind in general?

Brigham Young said,
"You believe Adam was made of the dust of this earth. This I do not believe, though it is supposed that it is so written in the Bible; but it is not to my understanding. You can write that information to the States, if you please – that I have publicly declared that I do not believe that portion of the Bible as the Christian world do. I never did, and I never want to. What is the reason I do not? Because I have come to understanding, and banished from my mind all the baby stories my mother taught me when I was a child."
Is it merely the "dust of the earth" part that he's calling a "baby story" or is it the whole narrative?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

User avatar
EternityIsNow
Posts: 146
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 11:48 pm

Re: Smart people and Adam and Eve

Post by EternityIsNow » Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:11 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:59 pm
BTW what is meant in the temple when they say that the man and woman are symbolic? Does it mean that Tim and Sally from down the street are symbolically representing a real Adam and Eve, or does it mean the characters of Adam and Eve are symbols for humankind in general?

Brigham Young said,
"You believe Adam was made of the dust of this earth. This I do not believe, though it is supposed that it is so written in the Bible; but it is not to my understanding. You can write that information to the States, if you please – that I have publicly declared that I do not believe that portion of the Bible as the Christian world do. I never did, and I never want to. What is the reason I do not? Because I have come to understanding, and banished from my mind all the baby stories my mother taught me when I was a child."
Is it merely the "dust of the earth" part that he's calling a "baby story" or is it the whole narrative?
I think they are just saying the people are standing in for Adam and Eve, who were real historical people in the narrative. And BY believed God came down to earth with one of his celestial plural wives. They then ate something from this earth in order to procreate human bodies, they had sex, and had Adam and Eve. BY was fitting the story into his eternal polygamy worldview. Sorry, I don't recall the reference, but this version has been passed around before, maybe from someone's journal reporting on what BY said in private.

User avatar
EternityIsNow
Posts: 146
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 11:48 pm

Re: Smart people and Adam and Eve

Post by EternityIsNow » Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:12 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:59 pm
BTW what is meant in the temple when they say that the man and woman are symbolic? Does it mean that Tim and Sally from down the street are symbolically representing a real Adam and Eve, or does it mean the characters of Adam and Eve are symbols for humankind in general?

Brigham Young said,
"You believe Adam was made of the dust of this earth. This I do not believe, though it is supposed that it is so written in the Bible; but it is not to my understanding. You can write that information to the States, if you please – that I have publicly declared that I do not believe that portion of the Bible as the Christian world do. I never did, and I never want to. What is the reason I do not? Because I have come to understanding, and banished from my mind all the baby stories my mother taught me when I was a child."
Is it merely the "dust of the earth" part that he's calling a "baby story" or is it the whole narrative?
I think they are just saying the people are standing in for Adam and Eve, who were real historical people in the narrative.

And IIRC, BY believed a God came down to earth with one of his celestial plural wives. They then ate something from this earth in order to procreate human bodies, they had sex, and had Adam and Eve. BY was fitting the story into his eternal polygamy, progression to be a God worldview. Sorry, I don't recall the reference, but this version has been passed around before, maybe from the JOD or someone's journal reporting on what BY said in private. Also, given this was BY, he probably believed a celestial Adam was the God who came down to create Adam/Eve.

User avatar
Hagoth
Posts: 7076
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:13 pm

Re: Smart people and Adam and Eve

Post by Hagoth » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:54 pm

EternityIsNow wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:11 pm
I think they are just saying the people are standing in for Adam and Eve, who were real historical people in the narrative.
That seems like the obvious reason but it's kind of unnessessary, as if anyone in the session is going to need it explained to them that it's not really THE original Adam and Eve.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

User avatar
2bizE
Posts: 2405
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 9:33 pm

Re: Smart people and Adam and Eve

Post by 2bizE » Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:08 pm

These smart people have likely never stopped and thought about it. It's like they haven't found out about Santa Claus yet.
~2bizE

User avatar
Corsair
Posts: 3080
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:58 am
Location: Phoenix

Re: Smart people and Adam and Eve

Post by Corsair » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:42 pm

I am with you on this, but there are ways to think about Adam and Eve that don't quickly result in nonsense. A lot of Intelligent Design people will accept evolution and a 4.5 billion year old earth featuring some kind of Adam and Eve as specified as the first humans with souls. Along with resisting the urge to take Genesis chapter 1-3 literally, this does have the benefit of rendering the Adam and Eve story largely unfalsifiable.

I know that a lot of Young Earth Creationists are still around in Mormonism and Christianity at large. Some are embracing Flat Earth ideas these days which is a new brand of crazy. Most Mormons probably don't think historicity of Adam and Eve very closely. It largely does not impinge on their daily lives. Even plural marriage has more effect on life decisions than whether or not Adam had a belly button.

Reuben
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:01 pm

Re: Smart people and Adam and Eve

Post by Reuben » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:09 am

Corsair wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:42 pm
I am with you on this, but there are ways to think about Adam and Eve that don't quickly result in nonsense. A lot of Intelligent Design people will accept evolution and a 4.5 billion year old earth featuring some kind of Adam and Eve as specified as the first humans with souls. Along with resisting the urge to take Genesis chapter 1-3 literally, this does have the benefit of rendering the Adam and Eve story largely unfalsifiable.
That's exactly how I did it. Even after I tossed most of Intelligent Design (really, who would design us in such a haphazard way?) and went with very gently guided evolution, I still thought of Adam and Eve as the first humans with souls. But I didn't like Elder Holland's assertion that we can't appreciate the atonement without believing their story is literally true. I found it much more enlightening to think of it as allegorical, and not care whether it was literally true.
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.

User avatar
Jeffret
Posts: 1030
Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 6:49 pm

Re: Smart people and Adam and Eve

Post by Jeffret » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:34 am

Hagoth wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:59 pm
BTW what is meant in the temple when they say that the man and woman are symbolic? Does it mean that Tim and Sally from down the street are symbolically representing a real Adam and Eve, or does it mean the characters of Adam and Eve are symbols for humankind in general?
It's been a while since I've been to the temple, but I think they took that line out quite some time ago. (1990)

The temple ceremonies have not been officially interpreted beyond what's in the ceremonies themselves. This leaves participants the freedom to interpret them according to their preferences. Everyone can interpret them as they want, because the official channels have been silent on it. You could have interpreted that line as you want and there is no specific meaning. But now church leaders have removed it so I guess you shouldn't look for meaning in it at all.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 47 guests