"Have you heard what Brother Bednar said?"

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Linked
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"Have you heard what Brother Bednar said?"

Post by Linked » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:49 pm

At a family get together last night a group of my siblings, spouses and parents were chatting. My parents are from LA, so I showed them the video of the LA commute with the hills ablaze. My dad responded with "Have you heard what Brother Bednar said?" I stiffened up a bit. "He said that this stuff, the fires and earthquakes, is not going to get better. It's just going to get worse."

I think my eyes rolled all the way around my head. This is one of my major buttons. A combination of self-fulfilling prophecy/armageddon with the leader worship, belief that prophets and apostles speak for God while never actually admitting it, and with a twist of partially agreeing with climate change studies but not because of climate change. URGH.

I emotionally responded that things have been getting better for humanity for hundreds of years, and are as good as they have ever been. This was an attempt to argue against the general apocalyptic track that things are worse than ever and our only hope is the end of times, which my dad has always had a fascination for. But it was a bad argument and I have been kicking myself since. A sibling chimed in that another apostle had mentioned that too. So I, still quite emotional, responded that so did Dallin Oaks in 2003. And Joseph Smith in 1833.

This was my lame attempt to prove that it is stupid to believe anything those guys say about anything related to the apocalypse, or anything at all. It was an attempt I should not have made. I screwed up guys.

If I had responded at all it should have been less emotional. And it should have been better than "Uh-uh, things are good, not bad." Something like, "Yes, fires may be likely to increase possibly due to the warming climate. I don't know about earthquakes though. But the overall quality of life for humanity is way up over the past couple hundred years, and continues to improve. Isn't it great?"

Or maybe some street epistemology. "Oh, he said that? So you are saying that these fires in California are a sign that armageddon, the second coming of Jesus Christ, and the millenium are near? So because you heard hearsay that a current apostle of the LDS church has hinted at the second coming being around the corner you think that the end of the world as we know it is coming when? Within 10 years or so? Ok. Has an apostle or member of the first presidency ever made a comment like this before, suggesting that something happening at the time was a sign the second coming was near? Let's check. Oh, they have? Many times? Since the beginning of the church? Wow, what do you think that means we should think about this hearsay from Brother Bednar?

Maybe next time.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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FiveFingerMnemonic
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Re: "Have you heard what Brother Bednar said?"

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:17 pm

Yeah man, gotta keep your head in the game and not take the bait. Smile and nod!

But if you must engage:
Sometimes you might be tempted to think as I did from time to time in my youth: “The way things are going, the world’s going to be over with. The end of the world is going to come before I get to where I should be.” Not so! You can look forward to doing it right—getting married, having a family, seeing your children and grandchildren, maybe even great-grandchildren
Elder Boyd Packer
OCT 2011 general conference - "Counsel to Youth"

Have to fight apostles with apostles

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Re: "Have you heard what Brother Bednar said?"

Post by Linked » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:23 pm

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:17 pm
Yeah man, gotta keep your head in the game and not take the bait. Smile and nod!

But if you must engage:
Sometimes you might be tempted to think as I did from time to time in my youth: “The way things are going, the world’s going to be over with. The end of the world is going to come before I get to where I should be.” Not so! You can look forward to doing it right—getting married, having a family, seeing your children and grandchildren, maybe even great-grandchildren
Elder Boyd Packer
OCT 2011 general conference - "Counsel to Youth"

Have to fight apostles with apostles
This is gold. Thanks FFM!
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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Jeffret
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Re: "Have you heard what Brother Bednar said?"

Post by Jeffret » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:42 pm

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:17 pm
Yeah man, gotta keep your head in the game and not take the bait. Smile and nod!

But if you must engage:
Sometimes you might be tempted to think as I did from time to time in my youth: “The way things are going, the world’s going to be over with. The end of the world is going to come before I get to where I should be.” Not so! You can look forward to doing it right—getting married, having a family, seeing your children and grandchildren, maybe even great-grandchildren
Elder Boyd Packer
OCT 2011 general conference - "Counsel to Youth"

Have to fight apostles with apostles
Ah, but he's dead. That counts against him. ("Fourteen Fundamentals of Following the Prophet", #3: "The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.")

But Packer was President of the Quorum of the 12 and Bednar is still a junior apostle. And Packer made that statement in General Conference and it was published in the Ensign conference edition, which should be considered as scripture. And Packer isn't long dead.

I think the point goes to Packer.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Re: "Have you heard what Brother Bednar said?"

Post by Corsair » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:47 pm

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:17 pm
Sometimes you might be tempted to think as I did from time to time in my youth: “The way things are going, the world’s going to be over with. The end of the world is going to come before I get to where I should be.” Not so! You can look forward to doing it right—getting married, having a family, seeing your children and grandchildren, maybe even great-grandchildren
Elder Boyd Packer
OCT 2011 general conference - "Counsel to Youth"

Have to fight apostles with apostles
This is what is happening, with Elder Bednar playing the role of Lucy:

Image

However, according to Ezra Taft Benson in Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet:
Ezra Taft Benson wrote: Third: The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.

God’s revelation to Adam did not instruct Noah how to build the Ark. Noah needed his own revelation. Therefore the most important prophet so far as you and I are concerned is the one living in our day and age to whom the Lord is currently revealing His will for us. Therefore the most important reading we can do is any of the words of the prophet contained each month in our Church Magazines. Our instructions about what we should do for each six months are found in the General Conference addresses which are printed in the Church magazine.

Beware of those who would set up the dead prophets against the living prophets, for the living prophets always take precedence.

Lucy pulls the football from a hapless and faithful Charlie Brown just as suspiciously as the date of the Second Coming recedes in the future yet again. Benson's counsel to listen to what the living prophet said most recently is a likely counter-counter-apologetic if you point out this fact in anything but the most sacred of framing.

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deacon blues
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Re: "Have you heard what Brother Bednar said?"

Post by deacon blues » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:55 pm

I’m thankful that Elder Packer gave that quote. A study of Church history and doctrine shows that the Church was born and suckled on “Last Days” theology. 1866, 1890, and 2000 were all given as likely last years, though those who were wise in their own eyes could always add that “no one knows the day or the hour. The Church is approaching the age where it will have to outgrow the milk of apocalyptic motivation, and give members something more substantial. But I could be wrong.

The comparison of Elder Bednar to Lucy is right on.
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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MerrieMiss
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Re: "Have you heard what Brother Bednar said?"

Post by MerrieMiss » Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:03 pm

Or, more recently, the words of Uchtdorf from April:
One of the ways Satan wants us to manipulate others is by dwelling upon and even exaggerating the evil in the world.

Certainly our world has always been, and will continue to be, imperfect. Far too many innocent people suffer because of circumstances of nature as well as from man’s inhumanity. The corruption and wickedness in our day are unique and alarming.

But in spite of all this, I wouldn’t trade living in this time with any other time in the history of the world. We are blessed beyond measure to live in a day of unparalleled prosperity, enlightenment, and advantage. Most of all, we are blessed to have the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ, which gives us a unique perspective on the world’s dangers and shows us how to either avoid these dangers or deal with them.
Also quoted in October's New Era:

https://www.lds.org/new-era/2017/10/the ... eng#note1-

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Re: "Have you heard what Brother Bednar said?"

Post by Reuben » Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:12 pm

Corsair wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:47 pm
However, according to Ezra Taft Benson in Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet:
Ezra Taft Benson wrote: Third: The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.
Isn't he dead?

All we need is a recent pronouncement or restatement of the idea that we should compare prophetic pronouncements with what's in the standard works, and then we can forget about what Elder Benson said.
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.

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Re: "Have you heard what Brother Bednar said?"

Post by azflyer » Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:17 pm

No doubt it is very difficult to have conversations like this with family members. Whenever discussion like this comes up, I try to point out that Christians have been awaiting Jesus' return since they saw him ascend into heaven as described in the book of Acts.

I think after I make comments like this my family smiles, nods and then talks about me behind my back about how crazy I am... :? :roll:

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Re: "Have you heard what Brother Bednar said?"

Post by wtfluff » Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:18 pm

Linked wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:49 pm
Or maybe some street epistemology.
Oh man... I know I've encouraged you to "street epistemologize" with your family, but I'm not sure I'd touch that one with a 39.5 foot pole.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

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Linked
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Re: "Have you heard what Brother Bednar said?"

Post by Linked » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:33 pm

Thanks for all the kind replies.

So we've got Packer and Uchtdorf vs. Bednar. I would have thought Packer and Bednar would be on the same team; life comes at you fast.
azflyer wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:17 pm
No doubt it is very difficult to have conversations like this with family members. Whenever discussion like this comes up, I try to point out that Christians have been awaiting Jesus' return since they saw him ascend into heaven as described in the book of Acts.

I think after I make comments like this my family smiles, nods and then talks about me behind my back about how crazy I am... :? :roll:
Yes, I'm sure my comments got the same treatment. "Linked is crazy AND angry! I better keep my testimony so I don't end up like him." Unfortunately the unspoken distance between me and my siblings is feeling further than usual, and it is sad. There's a nice quote from Jung about loneliness that seems apt right now.
Loneliness does not come from having no people about one, but from being unable to communicate the things that seem important to oneself, or from holding certain views which others find inadmissible.
wtfluff wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:18 pm
Linked wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:49 pm
Or maybe some street epistemology.
Oh man... I know I've encouraged you to "street epistemologize" with your family, but I'm not sure I'd touch that one with a 39.5 foot pole.
Haha, yeah. There's no way you could get someone to commit to any concrete belief to analyze epistemologically regarding the second coming. Like so much else they have their cake and eat it too. The second coming is near. How near? No man knows, but believe me, it is NEAR...
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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Re: "Have you heard what Brother Bednar said?"

Post by moksha » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:35 pm

Elder Bednar is right to the extent that fires and earthquakes will not get any better. Heck, with a burgeoning world population fires will probably increase. Fire will eventually win out when our sun becomes a red giant in about 4.3 billion years.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Re: "Have you heard what Brother Bednar said?"

Post by Emower » Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:52 pm

I have decided that my parents will not change. Trying to get them to change is an exercise in futility. Dont do it. Trust the penguins advice, "smile and wave boys, smile and wave."
I usually say stuff like, "well you know I dont agree that" or "I think much differently now."

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Re: "Have you heard what Brother Bednar said?"

Post by wtfluff » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:05 pm

Emower wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:52 pm
Trust the penguins advice, "smile and wave boys, smile and wave."
The penguins eh?

There IS that one penguin...

Image

YES I'M BEING SARCASTIC.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

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Re: "Have you heard what Brother Bednar said?"

Post by RubinHighlander » Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:07 am

This site has a ton of pure data that provides all the evidence you need to support the fact the World is getting better for humans over time:

https://ourworldindata.org/natural-catastrophes/

Global warming will have a negative impact on some, positive on others, but technology keeps advancing and as religion keeps fading away, science will make life better for humans around the planet - at least that's what the data shows.

One of the last HPG meetings I had attended they were talking about the last days. "Well brethren, what do you think, is it the last days?" To which one brother said "It sure feels like it." To which I said "Thus has said every generation since Christ and Joseph Smith." I didn't go any further with my arguments against the instructor and comments about how crappy the world was before Jesus comes again.

The problem with arguing with TBMs on this topic is that it's one of the few things they have to make their otherwise boring lives feel special, because they have to do the gymnastics to make themselves buy into the super special people narrative. I used to think this way so I understand it. They want to feel they are part of something big, even though they are a very small religion in a very big world of 10s of thousands of other religions that also say they have all the answers. So it might sting a bit if you attack one of the few things they count as evidence to suggest their corporate leaders have any prophetic attributes.

Keep this data in your back pocket and maybe follow up with one or two of them to simply ask them what they think about the raw numbers that show the world is improving and maybe that's why the last days are not talked about much anymore in GC.

Good luck and enjoy the best days of humanity that we've ever had so far!
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
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Re: "Have you heard what Brother Bednar said?"

Post by Corsair » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:14 am

Reuben wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:12 pm
Ezra Taft Benson wrote: Third: The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.
Isn't he dead?

All we need is a recent pronouncement or restatement of the idea that we should compare prophetic pronouncements with what's in the standard works, and then we can forget about what Elder Benson said.
Yes, but his Fourteen Fundamentals were resurrected by Claudio R. M. Costa and Kevin R. Duncan in October 2010 General Conference. Both of these Seventies relayed Fourteen Fundamentals of Following the Prophet.

We are told that topics are not assigned by Salt Lake City, but by revelation. Two general authorities felt inspired to restate Benson's ideas to the general membership.

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Linked
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Re: "Have you heard what Brother Bednar said?"

Post by Linked » Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:56 am

RubinHighlander wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:07 am
This site has a ton of pure data that provides all the evidence you need to support the fact the World is getting better for humans over time:

https://ourworldindata.org/natural-catastrophes/
Great website, thank you for linking. That's really interesting data. Looks like reporting increased, but deaths decreased. Way to go humanity!
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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Re: "Have you heard what Brother Bednar said?"

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:00 am

Elder. It's Elder Bednar!

Looks like people prayed for rain every other decade after the 1920's. Or God started to listen. It seems he quit using that method of killing his children though.

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Linked
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Re: "Have you heard what Brother Bednar said?"

Post by Linked » Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:23 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:00 am
Elder. It's Elder Bednar!
Right? I put Brother Bednar because that is a direct quote from my senior missionary TBM father. He's funny like that. I think converting to mormonism was in some way his method of sticking it to the man. So when the church becomes the man and tells him to call certain people elder or whatever, he gets a little rebelious.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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