First Sunday Councils

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Brent
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First Sunday Councils

Post by Brent » Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:45 pm

The Church just announced that every first Sunday in 2018 is a "Council Meeting" https://www.lds.org/ensign/2017/11/come ... s?lang=eng which begs the questions why and how. Why risk a brutal gossip session that alienates members and who is in charge of not letting that happen. I believe that the answer is pretty simple: Home Teaching and Visiting are such wretched failures that there is a near zero flow-back of information and by including an entire quorum or class or group into a "council" session you really multiple the chances of getting feedback by opening 20 streams of inquiry instead of 1 or 2.

Will it work? That's a fools guess. No, Yes, Maybe? You'll get feedback but the quality is going to be suspect because, well, ahhhh, gossip is adored and embraced by most Latter-day Saints. Yes, that's a giant jump but look at yourself! We all gossip to some extent and NOBODY likes a silence during a meeting which means some tongue will wave eventually. If you're a dissenter or someone in a loose orbit what happens when you're there? Gossip. And what happens when you are not there? Gossip about you. Home Teaching and Visit Teaching are about retrieving information. You visit. You learn. You fix it if you can, you pass it up the chain if you can't. Unfortunately this process is uncomfortable and invasive. Folks don't want to ask and folks don't want to share.

When I was an Elder's Quorum President I can't tell you how many times I got "100%! Got 'em all" reports I got only to have the Families visited corner me up and say "Not been home taught in 6 months...who's my HT?" Anecdotal yes, however humans tend to "under-share" about themselves and "over-share" about others. And yes, I often counted a drive-by at Walmart as a contact too.

The intent is probably good but the execution is going to really, really messy. As a resigned member my evil twisted mind wants to be relentless in attending the first meeting of each month just to mess with folks minds. Would they be talking about me if I don't? I seriously doubt it. I'm pretty well off the radar and there's much bigger issues out there.

What will the Council meeting look like? Not sure but...well...maybe I'll duck in once...maybe in a ward not my own.

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Nonny
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Re: First Sunday Councils

Post by Nonny » Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:54 pm

I have similar questions about the new RS format. So much so, that I got a sub for my other calling and am planning to attend the first meeting in January, on purpose, just to see what happens exactly. I haven’t been to SS or RS in the last 8 years, so that should surprise a lot of people. I’ll return and report if anything interesting turns up.

lostinmiddlemormonism
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Re: First Sunday Councils

Post by lostinmiddlemormonism » Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:48 am

I'm taking popcorn. It should be entertaining. Hell, our discussion about it coming up was entertaining in SS. People asking if this would be a good way for them to get counseling for their depression or not and others asking if it was going to be ok to share information like"....." which they then proceeded to share in that meeting. 'Tis going to be a hoot I tell ya!

-lost

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moksha
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Re: First Sunday Councils

Post by moksha » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:53 am

While no one should feel pressured to participate, everyone should feel safe sharing comments and ideas without fear of being criticized.
Is this even possible in the LDS Church? I think quite a few members survive in Church by keeping their mouth shut. Some TBMers seem to have a low tolerance for those expressing a differing opinion.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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StarbucksMom
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Re: First Sunday Councils

Post by StarbucksMom » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:58 am

I don't go to RS. I hate it. I only attend Sac 2-3 times a month. I don't want to be discussed as a project in these stupid councils. Should I email the RS pres., say I heard about this, that I am doing great/RS isn't something I enjoy/I don't want to be a charity project or my name discussed? Or just leave it alone? I mainly don't want drop in visits from the ward. I work full time now and my family time is valuable. At one time I emailed our former bishop, told him this, and the visits stopped. I also never invite the missionaries in when they show up. I know it's not super nice, but I really don't want to waste my time hearing them talk about how great Mormonism is.

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moksha
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Re: First Sunday Councils

Post by moksha » Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:07 am

moksha wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:53 am
While no one should feel pressured to participate, everyone should feel safe sharing comments and ideas without fear of being criticized.
Is this even possible in the LDS Church? I think quite a few members survive in Church by keeping their mouth shut. Some TBMers seem to have a low tolerance for those expressing a differing opinion.
So are you thinking these council meetings will devolve into faith promoting slogans that will be accompanied by applause, beaming smiles, and dittos?

No need to be so skeptical.

It wouldn't be so bad if there was a steady diet of the message "get out there and do what you're expected to do, but more of it" would it? I mean come on, we can all appreciate an hour of corrective instruction telling us that "yes it is hard, but think of the eternal reward" followed by a prayer that we may do all the things mentioned in today's council.

If you, Brother Penguin, are not up for it you can always sulk as long as you do so silently and keep it to yourself!
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Corsair
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Re: First Sunday Councils

Post by Corsair » Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:56 am

It feels like the proverbial "nailing Jello to the wall" and hoping that something sticks. It's going to be a new round leadership roulette where the institutional church promotes the best instances of First Sunday Councils doind something useful. I'm willing to give it a chance and fully expect a new string of good and bad stories populating both /r/latterdaysaints and /r/exmormon. I'm sure the LDS Living will highlight some good examples while being haunted by the corrupt gossip sessions that some First Sunday Councils will devolve into.

First Sunday was already the "leader's choice" and the lesson quality reflected this for good or ill, depending on leadership roulette. I am interested in how this actually works on January 7, 2018. It coincides with the return of learning about the Old Testament in Gospel Doctrine class. Let's see if it stays centered on Jesus Christ or of it devolves into the silliest parts of the Old Testament: Gospel Doctrine Teacher’s Manual, Lesson 16, Balaam and his talking donkey.

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Brent
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Re: First Sunday Councils

Post by Brent » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:07 am

As a Teacher it always strikes me how easy people think teaching is. A "guided discussion" takes real work to guide, you have grab feet occasionally and say, "Right HERE" to keep someone from stepping into the void. I would be hopeful that the next few weeks and months will see the release of some kind of resources and training. I teach both High School and motorcycle safety and the ability for participants to get off track quickly is amazing. I have to say, "That's an interesting idea but..." and "Curious. Can we save that for later?" a lot. The real trick is deadheading a side track before it really gets rolling, you have to be able to quickly (and without offense) get back on topic.

It's hard. Trust me. I have true empathy for those that have to implement this grand idea.

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Jeffret
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Re: First Sunday Councils

Post by Jeffret » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:18 am

Brent wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:07 am
As a Teacher it always strikes me how easy people think teaching is. A "guided discussion" takes real work to guide, you have grab feet occasionally and say, "Right HERE" to keep someone from stepping into the void. I would be hopeful that the next few weeks and months will see the release of some kind of resources and training. I teach both High School and motorcycle safety and the ability for participants to get off track quickly is amazing. I have to say, "That's an interesting idea but..." and "Curious. Can we save that for later?" a lot. The real trick is deadheading a side track before it really gets rolling, you have to be able to quickly (and without offense) get back on topic.

It's hard. Trust me. I have true empathy for those that have to implement this grand idea.
+1

Guided discussions take lots of preparation and a good deal of skill.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")

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Brent
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Re: First Sunday Councils

Post by Brent » Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:43 am

Here's the jumping off point. I'm terribly nervous about the "What doctrine, if better understood..." bit but, in the end this is really a hopeful puff piece.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2018/01/to-s ... l?lang=eng

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MoPag
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Re: First Sunday Councils

Post by MoPag » Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:11 am

lostinmiddlemormonism wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:48 am
I'm taking popcorn. It should be entertaining. Hell, our discussion about it coming up was entertaining in SS. People asking if this would be a good way for them to get counseling for their depression or not and others asking if it was going to be ok to share information like"....." which they then proceeded to share in that meeting. 'Tis going to be a hoot I tell ya!

-lost
Yessss!!^^ I bet it's going to be absolutely horrifyingly hilarious! We should start a running thread: Sh*t I heard in First Sunday Council.
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

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Not Buying It
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Re: First Sunday Councils

Post by Not Buying It » Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:11 am

Brent wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:43 am
Here's the jumping off point. I'm terribly nervous about the "What doctrine, if better understood..." bit but, in the end this is really a hopeful puff piece.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2018/01/to-s ... l?lang=eng

Oh please, when have any of the Brethren ever taken this approach to leadership:
Role of the Leader

“The preacher was no better than the hearer, neither was the teacher any better than the learner; and thus they were all equal” (Alma 1:26).

To improve our councils, we avoid worldly concepts of leadership. In the Lord’s kingdom, the leader is “servant of all” (Mark 10:44). Similarly, the council leader, whether a presiding authority or a teacher, provides focus but is not the focal point. He or she avoids being the dominant voice or taking a position before hearing from the council.
And this sounds like a friggin' nightmare - yet more "assignments" and stupid expectations:
A council is incomplete without plans to act on revelation received. Council participants should be invited to make specific commitments that they will act upon. “At the end of your council, you need to have assignments,” said Sister Jean B. Bingham, Relief Society General President. “The most important work happens between meetings.”
This is a plan to try and fix the obnoxious tedium of our Sunday meetings by making them a little more obnoxiously tedious.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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Corsair
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Re: First Sunday Councils

Post by Corsair » Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:37 am

MoPag wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:11 am
Yessss!!^^ I bet it's going to be absolutely horrifyingly hilarious! We should start a running thread: Sh*t I heard in First Sunday Council.
This will become a regular feature on both NOM and /r/exmormon and /r/latterdaysaints. No new section will be needed. These stories will naturally be posted in appropriate forums like a curse that you can only remove by telling someone else about it.

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Linked
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Re: First Sunday Councils

Post by Linked » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:04 pm

Not Buying It wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:11 am
And this sounds like a friggin' nightmare - yet more "assignments" and stupid expectations:
A council is incomplete without plans to act on revelation received. Council participants should be invited to make specific commitments that they will act upon. “At the end of your council, you need to have assignments,” said Sister Jean B. Bingham, Relief Society General President. “The most important work happens between meetings.”
This is a plan to try and fix the obnoxious tedium of our Sunday meetings by making them a little more obnoxiously tedious.
One thing they could do that might actually improve the quality of EQ/HP/RS might be to have the 2nd and 3rd weeks be the weeks where you work on the assignments. It would go like this in EQ:

1st Sunday: Discuss how you can be a better husband and father; things like spend time with kids, do homework with them, more dates with DW, etc.
2nd/3rd Sunday: Plan family activities, figure out who you are going to contact for baby sitting, study the Algebra you have forgotten, etc.

Or maybe

1st Sunday: Discuss Linked and the other ward members who seem to be fading away and how to get them re-engaged.
2nd/3rd Sunday: Practice fake smile, study up on Linked's social media presence, think of assignments you can give Linked to force him to think about church more, etc.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

dogbite
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Re: First Sunday Councils

Post by dogbite » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:34 pm

Give your home teacher explicit instructions that you and your family are off limits for any discussion or targeting in any such meeting.

That's where I'm leaning right now. Probably still ineffective but at least you made your wishes known.

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Red Ryder
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Re: First Sunday Councils

Post by Red Ryder » Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:49 pm

I haven't been a 3 hour mormon for over a year now. One hour has been enough for me so I don't plan to attend these meetings but for those who do, you guys should take it as an opportunity to get offended and go inactive!

Think about it. When they start talking about the inactives, you get offended, storm out yelling about how insensitive it is to talk about people who are inactive. Then, since you're offended and went inactive, they can now talk about you knowing how and why you went inactive. Now you've short circuited their discussion.

EQP: let's discuss the inactives. What about Brother Ryder?
Elders Quorum: he got offended and went inactive.
EQP: why? What can we do to help him?
Elders Quorum: he got offended because we talked about inactives.
EQP: how can we help him?
Elders Quorum: uh, stop talking about the inactives?
EQP: huh?
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Wonderment
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Re: First Sunday Councils

Post by Wonderment » Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:49 pm

Think about it. When they start talking about the inactives, you get offended, storm out yelling about how insensitive it is to talk about people who are inactive. Then, since you're offended and went inactive, they can now talk about you knowing how and why you went inactive. Now you've short circuited their discussion.
:D :D :D Hahahaha ! That's ingenious. Also hilarious. :D I would LOVE to see a hidden camera video of that meeting. Good excuse to make a batch of popcorn and be entertained for awhile. :D - Wndr.

Reuben
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Re: First Sunday Councils

Post by Reuben » Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:08 pm

I hope they talk about me. The bishopric knows what's up, and I've been putting a lot of extra time into home teaching. The only plausible explanation is just what I told the bishopric: I greatly dislike having to choose between honesty and social standing, and I strongly object to the church's dishonesty and indoctrination. I would love it if they would talk about those things.

Also, one of the bishopric is quite NOM, and would rebut the typical crap explanations for why people leave.
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.

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Spicy McHaggis
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Re: First Sunday Councils

Post by Spicy McHaggis » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:30 pm

I don't attend SS or PH, I haven't in years. After Sac Meeting on Sunday a guy came up to me to tell me he did our home teaching this month so I wouldn't need to worry about it.

I guess I'm his home teaching partner. Nobody has said a thing to me about home teaching in six or seven years. My partner is a nice enough guy but I haven't spoken to him in years. At this point in life, I cannot stomach the thought of going to someone's home a pretending I have any belief in any sort of god.

These counsel meetings will ultimately fail, like every new program they put out. I am almost curious what they would say about me considering I haven't been to PH in years, but I just don't care what they think.

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dareka
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Re: First Sunday Councils

Post by dareka » Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:07 am

Wonderment wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:49 pm
:D :D :D Hahahaha ! That's ingenious. Also hilarious. :D I would LOVE to see a hidden camera video of that meeting. Good excuse to make a batch of popcorn and be entertained for awhile. :D - Wndr.
Popcorn is the perfect idea, especially because it will be Fast Sunday. Be sure to pop it in the microwave in the church kitchen so the smell will waft through the whole building. Then sit back and enjoy all the icy stares from those fasting individuals who are jealous that you can eat. :D

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