No Help From Mormon Bishops on Abuse

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achilles
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No Help From Mormon Bishops on Abuse

Post by achilles » Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:15 pm

A news story in the Salt Lake Tribune reports that the two ex-wives of a resigning White House Senior Staffer both reported abuse by their husband and received no help/support from their LDS bishops. One was told to "keep in mind her husband's career ambitions" and to "consider carefully what she says might affect his career." She was not believed by either her Priesthood leadership or friends/fellow church goers.

Another ex-wife reported that he once dragged her naked out of the shower, and another time punched her in the face. She told the Daily Mail:
‘It was scary but it wasn’t like it was life-threatening. For years, I would go to Mormon bishops and I would try to find the words to explain what was going on but I was at a loss beyond the explanation that he got physical with me.’

The violence escalated to where Porter was choking his wife.

‘It was not hard enough for me to pass out but it was scary, humiliating and dehumanizing,’ she said.

‘It wasn’t until I went to a secular counsellor at my work place one summer and told him what was going on that he was the first person, and not a male religious leader, who told me that what was happening was not okay.’


Read more at http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyat ... hU24Wz7.99
This woman also wrote about why she stayed with him in a blog post last year: http://www.bornebackceaselessly.com/jou ... y-i-stayed

This dude is a returned missionary who went to BYU.

I know this is a sensitive issue here, and many have been doubly abused as their bishops "counselled" them to "think about what their accusation would do to the abuser and his image." This makes my blood boil. I know it's not unique to Mormons, but wow, it still chaps my hide.

https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/20 ... re-abused/

Utah Senator Orrin Hatch was asked to make a statement about the alleged abuse:
Sen. Orrin Hatch (R–Utah), for whom Porter had previously served as chief of staff, initially told the Daily Mail the allegations against Porter came from lying “character assassins.” His full comment:
It’s incredibly discouraging to see such a vile attack on such a decent man. Shame on any publication that would print this—and shame on the politically motivated, morally bankrupt character assassins that would attempt to sully a man’s good name.
Hatch changed his statement on Wednesday, after learning the actual details leveled by the actual victims. His new statement read:
I am heartbroken by today’s allegations. In every interaction I’ve had with Rob, he has been courteous, professional, and respectful. My staff loved him and he was a trusted advisor. I do not know the details of Rob’s personal life. Domestic violence in any form is abhorrent. I am praying for Rob and those involved.
Apparently “I didn’t see it with my own eyes in the workplace,” is the new “thoughts and prayers.” Note that the central moral issue was no longer the scurrilous women who must have lied to a slanderous press, but Hatch’s own heartbreak. He didn’t apologize to the women he had maligned hours earlier, and it’s not entirely clear if they are part of the group of people for whom Hatch is praying.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/201 ... ecret.html

The Church was asked to give a statement on the matter:
Eric Hawkins, a spokesman for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, said Thursday he couldn’t speak to the individual circumstances of the allegations. But he issued a statement that abuse is not tolerated. "It is difficult to speak to specific circumstances without complete information from all involved, but the position of the church is clear: There is zero tolerance for abuse of any kind,” Hawkins said. “Church leaders are given instruction on how to prevent and report abuse and how to care for those who have been abused.”
https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/20 ... 3749235287
“For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.”

― Carl Sagan

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MoPag
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Re: No Help From Mormon Bishops on Abuse

Post by MoPag » Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:21 pm

achilles wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:15 pm


The Church was asked to give a statement on the matter:
Eric Hawkins, a spokesman for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, said Thursday he couldn’t speak to the individual circumstances of the allegations. But he issued a statement that abuse is not tolerated. "It is difficult to speak to specific circumstances without complete information from all involved, but the position of the church is clear: There is zero tolerance for abuse of any kind,” Hawkins said. “Church leaders are given instruction on how to prevent and report abuse and how to care for those who have been abused.”
https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/20 ... 3749235287
WHAT A LOAD OF F@#%ING BULLSH*T!!!!!!!!!!!!

COMPLETE BULLSH*T!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please sisters and brothers, share your stories of bishops not helping you in an abusive situation with either Kate Kelly, or Carolyn Homer (from Exponent II), and I think Lindsay Hansen Park is taking them too. Contact them via FB or their blogs. They are all being contacted by reporters asking for stories. I shared mine with Kate Kelly this morning.

I'm shaking with rage right now.
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

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Red Ryder
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Re: No Help From Mormon Bishops on Abuse

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:58 pm

Mopag, you are such a strong, courageous, beautiful soul!

{{{{internet hugs}}}}
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Re: No Help From Mormon Bishops on Abuse

Post by StarbucksMom » Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:58 pm

MoPag wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:21 pm

WHAT A LOAD OF F@#%ING BULLSH*T!!!!!!!!!!!!

COMPLETE BULLSH*T!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please sisters and brothers, share your stories of bishops not helping you in an abusive situation with either Kate Kelly, or Carolyn Homer (from Exponent II), and I think Lindsay Hansen Park is taking them too. Contact them via FB or their blogs. They are all being contacted by reporters asking for stories. I shared mine with Kate Kelly this morning.

I'm shaking with rage right now.
Mopag, I wish I lived near you IRL so I could take you out to dinner/lunch--or just bring you some chocolate and give you a hug. I am so sorry for all you've been through this year and now all the emotions this is bringing to the surface for you. Hopefully you have a support group/counselor to talk to??

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moksha
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Re: No Help From Mormon Bishops on Abuse

Post by moksha » Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:27 pm

Here is the exact Tribune headline:
Mormon bishops told ex-wives of former Hatch, White House staffer to consider his ‘career ambitions’ when they reported his physical abuse, they say
It is amazing how newspapers can capture the gist of the story in a bit longer headline.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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MoPag
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Re: No Help From Mormon Bishops on Abuse

Post by MoPag » Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:27 am

StarbucksMom wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:58 pm

Mopag, I wish I lived near you IRL so I could take you out to dinner/lunch--or just bring you some chocolate and give you a hug. I am so sorry for all you've been through this year and now all the emotions this is bringing to the surface for you. Hopefully you have a support group/counselor to talk to??
Thanks StarbucksMom and RR. This whole thing has been super triggery for me, as I'm sure it is for lots of other people. I told my counselor about how my former bishop had tried to manipulate/pressure/guilt trip me to stay in my abusive marriage. She seems socked but not surprised.

I really hope this a turning point, or at least all of this can help other women and men in abusive situations realize they SHOULD NOT go to their Bishops.
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

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Not Buying It
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Re: No Help From Mormon Bishops on Abuse

Post by Not Buying It » Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:58 am

Friends, the Church statement is total crap. “Church leaders are given instruction on how to prevent and report abuse and how to care for those who have been abused.” Bull-freaking-crap. What kind of intense, focused, specialized training by experts on abuse do bishops get? Zero. Zilch. Nada. Church "training" generally consists of sitting in a meeting that isn't a whole hell of a lot different than Sunday School or Ward Council.

And you know what really sets me off? The Church knows there have been cases where bishops have given harmful counsel and direction. They know there have been bishops who counseled abused wives to stay with husbands and wives of disaffected Mormons to leave their husbands and all kinds of crap. They know this. But they act all "yeah, none of our bishops would ever do anything like that". Because they can never bring themselves to admit that there is a problem and they've caused it.

Given the choice between honesty and self-preservation, the Church will reliably choose the latter 100% of the time.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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Linked
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Re: No Help From Mormon Bishops on Abuse

Post by Linked » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:20 am

I didn't realize how prevalent it has been for bishops to recommend abused wives stay with their abusers, or even blame them for the abuse. That is absolutely horrible. How could anyone do that to another human being?

My deepest sympathies to those on this board who have gone through such abuse upon abuse.
Not Buying It wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:58 am
Given the choice between honesty and self-preservation, the Church will reliably choose the latter 100% of the time.
And in today's world where transparency is important to so many that tendency to self-preservation over honesty will ironically be part of what harms the church.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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Re: No Help From Mormon Bishops on Abuse

Post by Mormorrisey » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:38 am

MoPag wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:27 am

Thanks StarbucksMom and RR. This whole thing has been super triggery for me, as I'm sure it is for lots of other people. I told my counselor about how my former bishop had tried to manipulate/pressure/guilt trip me to stay in my abusive marriage. She seems socked but not surprised.

I really hope this a turning point, or at least all of this can help other women and men in abusive situations realize they SHOULD NOT go to their Bishops.
Unfortunately I think this is true, even for some bishops who DID deal with this as an issue in a better way. I've been reticent about sharing much about my experiences in fear of outing me, but this is very important, and perhaps I should add a trigger warning. But it is a large problem.

I think even bishops who do deal with this the right way, meaning they report it, merely puts the behaviour underground. I had two experiences with this. The first, when the wife approached me about her husband's abusive behaviour, which was more humiliating than leaving marks, I called the cops. Given the climate of some years ago, they told me that unless the wife spoke up, there was nothing they could do. So what I DID do, was tell the husband I called the cops and asked their advice. That made him rather quiet, and until they moved out of the ward about a year later, he watched his P's and Q's. But who knows after?

The second was a wife who felt "forced" into sexual activity. It had only happened once in their years of marriage, but once was once too many. Told her it was wrong, then met with the husband and told him if it happened again I would call the cops. As an older dude he was pretty ticked and told other HP's in the ward what I said. When one of them said I made this brother inactive with how I dealt with it, I said ANYBODY who did that to their spouse would be told the same thing, so go and spread that message around. I'm sure they told the SP on me, but I'll give that dude some credit, he knew it was wrong too, and never remonstrated me for how I dealt with that particular ward. Lots of unhappy wives with authoritarian husbands, and on Mother's Day I gave a talk on how to deal with their wives. NOT ONE MALE MEMBER told me they liked my talk, but lots of women did.

So I'm pretty confident that if this behaviour was going on, it was going to be hidden. Deeply, deeply hidden. It's just so sad that it happens in the first place, and even worse that those abused are counselled to stay. I would NEVER counsel that, and never did; but looking back, I'm sure anybody who was engaged in abuse, would make sure family members never talked to me in the first place. So is that better? I'm not sure.

Sorry that this whole experience triggered you, MoPag. Sending the positive vibes your way.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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Re: No Help From Mormon Bishops on Abuse

Post by MoPag » Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:36 pm

Mormorrisey wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:38 am

Sorry that this whole experience triggered you, MoPag. Sending the positive vibes your way.
Thanks Mormorrisey. Sounds like you were an awesome bishop!
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believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

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Re: No Help From Mormon Bishops on Abuse

Post by achilles » Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:54 pm

I just...I'm so very sorry for anyone who has gone through this. I would definitely have lots of ice cream and two listening ears for all of you! (the expensive ice cream, not the other crap...) I will never, ever, tell a person to tell their bishop first. Go straight to the cops.

I know it's more complicated than that. But I guess what I'm trying to say is this: don't go exclusively to a bishop to fix an abusive situation. Involve the authorities.
“For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.”

― Carl Sagan

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Re: No Help From Mormon Bishops on Abuse

Post by alas » Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:44 pm

achilles wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:54 pm
I just...I'm so very sorry for anyone who has gone through this. I would definitely have lots of ice cream and two listening ears for all of you! (the expensive ice cream, not the other crap...) I will never, ever, tell a person to tell their bishop first. Go straight to the cops.

I know it's more complicated than that. But I guess what I'm trying to say is this: don't go exclusively to a bishop to fix an abusive situation. Involve the authorities.
Better than straight out calling the cops, who really can't do much in most states unless they witness the abuse or the victim is ready to press charges, is to call a battered women's shelter. They have more training in dealing with domestic violence than cops do. The most dangerous times for women is when they try to leave or just after they call the cops, so you want to have a plan to stay safe. The shelter can help you decide if you are ready to leave, or what you need to do to stay safe after leaving. They can help you through the process starting any time, not just after or during a beating. If you want to press charges, the shelter can help with documentation, give you a safe place to stay.

Or, if it is "only emotional abuse" (emotional abuse is the most permanent damaging part of any abuse) then they can offer counseling while you asses how bad it really, can the marriage be saved, help with healing the damage.

My experience with working at a battered women's shelter taught me that statistically, on average women will leave and go back an average of seven times. During this period, if she is in counseling at the shelter, she is able to do the things she needs to in order to stay safe, have a plan for violent episodes, learn that it is not her fault, possibly get the man enrolled in anger management classes (the shelter I worked at gave the anger management classes itself)

So, if the danger is immediate and you are currently in danger, call the cops or go to the shelter. But if you need help over the next several months instead of just the next ten minutes, call a shelter, because that is what the police are going to tell you anyway.

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Re: No Help From Mormon Bishops on Abuse

Post by Mormorrisey » Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:57 pm

MoPag wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:36 pm
Mormorrisey wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:38 am

Sorry that this whole experience triggered you, MoPag. Sending the positive vibes your way.
Thanks Mormorrisey. Sounds like you were an awesome bishop!
I have to be honest, I'm not sure about that anymore. I certainly wasn't very diplomatic, and I think if I truly wanted to be of help, I wouldn't have pissed off almost every male in the ward. I haven't been in leadership to do things differently for well over a decade, and I'm sure my more aggressive style was part of it. Now I'm glad I'm out, but I still have some regrets about not being more helpful.
alas wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:44 pm
Better than straight out calling the cops, who really can't do much in most states unless they witness the abuse or the victim is ready to press charges, is to call a battered women's shelter. They have more training in dealing with domestic violence than cops do. The most dangerous times for women is when they try to leave or just after they call the cops, so you want to have a plan to stay safe...

So, if the danger is immediate and you are currently in danger, call the cops or go to the shelter. But if you need help over the next several months instead of just the next ten minutes, call a shelter, because that is what the police are going to tell you anyway.
Can't echo this enough, especially after my experience. And, after having worked closely with a great friend who was a social worker dealing with these kinds of issues in my academic life, that's what she would say as well. (In the mouth of two or three witnesses, etc. etc.) I think cops in this area have had more training on this issue, but always better to go to the experts and the right institutions for help. Great post, alas.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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Re: No Help From Mormon Bishops on Abuse

Post by wtfluff » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:25 pm

Not Buying It wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:58 am
What kind of intense, focused, specialized training by experts on abuse do bishops get?
Well... They are given the "hotline" number to call the law-firm, where the law-firm employee will tell them exactly what they need to do, to protect the church.

Yep, that's about it. :x
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Re: No Help From Mormon Bishops on Abuse

Post by Reuben » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:17 pm

Mormorrisey wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:57 pm
MoPag wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:36 pm
Mormorrisey wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:38 am

Sorry that this whole experience triggered you, MoPag. Sending the positive vibes your way.
Thanks Mormorrisey. Sounds like you were an awesome bishop!
I have to be honest, I'm not sure about that anymore. I certainly wasn't very diplomatic, and I think if I truly wanted to be of help, I wouldn't have pissed off almost every male in the ward. I haven't been in leadership to do things differently for well over a decade, and I'm sure my more aggressive style was part of it. Now I'm glad I'm out, but I still have some regrets about not being more helpful.
There was always a depressingly small limit to the influence you could have had on any abusers in your ward.

They don't see themselves as abusers. Not one of them is thinking, "I think I'll beat my wife today or make her feel like a turd just because." (Well, maybe one or two.) Instead, they think they're entitled to something, and that when they don't get it, certain actions against the party that withheld it are justified. The stories they tell themselves and others support their warped personal belief systems.

"She never has dinner ready when I get home. I just asked a simple question about it last time and she bit my head off. Then things escalated and she got hurt. I can't help it if I'm bigger and stronger."

If having been directly involved doesn't fix their perceptions, how would something their bishop says do anything? If they'll readily give into anger so they can force their loved ones into giving them a tiny perk, how would pissing them off at church appreciably change their loved ones' situations?

It takes a lot of therapy and external pressure to fix an abuser's warped worldview. Usually, nothing an outsider can do will help in the long run. Often, the most charitable thing an abused family member can do is leave them. It's possible you did the most you could by supporting the victims.
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.

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Re: No Help From Mormon Bishops on Abuse

Post by moksha » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:27 pm

Not Buying It wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:58 am
Given the choice between honesty and self-preservation, the Church will reliably choose the latter 100% of the time.
The irony of this is that over the long haul, honesty enhances organizational integrity and preservation.

The doors were cedar
and the panels strips of gold
and the Elders were High Priests
and the panels read and the priests exhorted:
We are the greatest church,
the greatest people:
nothing like us ever was.

The doors are twisted on broken hinges.
Sheets of rain swish through on the wind
where the Priests exhorted and the panels read:
We are the greatest church,
the greatest people,
nothing like us ever was.

The only singers now are crows crying, “Caw, caw,"
And the sheets of rain whine in the wind and doorways.
And the only listeners now are … the rats … and the lizards.

-- from Four Preludes on Playthings of the Wind, Penguin Books
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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achilles
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Re: No Help From Mormon Bishops on Abuse

Post by achilles » Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:18 pm

Alas--this is fantastic advice, and good to know (since all of this is kind of outside my experience). Call a local women's shelter. I'll have to put phone numbers for shelters in my phone along with other emergency numbers.

On a related note: since my mom died six months ago, all of her clothing has basically been undisturbed in my parents' closet, but it was holding my dad back in the grieving process. He just didn't know what to do with her clothes.

Last week, he sorted through her clothing and kept a few things for her memory. He had the impression to take the rest to a women's shelter in Logan, UT. I felt very happy about that. I know my mom would heartily approve of this, and know that maybe her clothes will help women who have to just get out as fast as they can, or who don't have anything to their name. My mom is an angel, and I feel that she would help these women in a heartbeat if she were still here.
“For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.”

― Carl Sagan

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Re: No Help From Mormon Bishops on Abuse

Post by alas » Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:28 am

achilles wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:18 pm
Alas--this is fantastic advice, and good to know (since all of this is kind of outside my experience). Call a local women's shelter. I'll have to put phone numbers for shelters in my phone along with other emergency numbers.

On a related note: since my mom died six months ago, all of her clothing has basically been undisturbed in my parents' closet, but it was holding my dad back in the grieving process. He just didn't know what to do with her clothes.

Last week, he sorted through her clothing and kept a few things for her memory. He had the impression to take the rest to a women's shelter in Logan, UT. I felt very happy about that. I know my mom would heartily approve of this, and know that maybe her clothes will help women who have to just get out as fast as they can, or who don't have anything to their name. My mom is an angel, and I feel that she would help these women in a heartbeat if she were still here.
That was a great idea of where to donate your mothers clothing. There really are women who escape in nothing but a nightgown. I know the shelter where I worked kept a supply of extra clothing on hand and we also had an arrangement with the local DI that we gave them extra donations we got and we could send women over for what we didn't have. In fact one of our workers got a huge kick out of the fact that as a femal nonmember, she could fill out a bishop's order. That was one time I felt good about the church.

But the experience of these two wives is really common. I would say that one woman out of ten was supported by her bishop. Some were even punished by being disfellowshipped for "breaking their marriage covenants." So, the range of leadership roulette was really wide. But the vast majority were treated as the guilty one who was breaking up the family for no reason. I got so disgusted with the church that I was embarrassed to be Mormon. It didn't even matter if the abuser started abusing the kids too. Now, the state of Utah will prosecute a mother who stays with a man who abuses the children, so her legal and moral obligation was to protect her children. But the denial runs deep. The bishops still tried to talk them into staying and forgiving (and going to jail?) and working it out.

Abusers do not change their behavior unless forced. Sometimes loosing their family will shock them into changing, but often they went on to abuse the second and third wives too.

The experts broke abusers into types. The first is kind of out of control and chaotic. They lose their temper and lash out. Then feel remorseful and this cycles between honeymoon phase and abusive phase. But soon they turn into the second type. They learn that this works. Their "temper is no longer out of control. They just use their temper to get their way. It is calculated and un remorseful. They are doing it on purpose and they know it.

One of the ways we counseled the women was to get them to see that negative consequences will change his "uncontrollable" temper. Their temper is NOT out of control. How often do they break their expensive golf clubs or break their whiskey bottle? Nope. They break their wife's stuff and hit her because that doesn't cost them money. They hit her where bruises will not show. They are in perfect control.

The abuse is not "temper". It is a calculated way of controlling the wife. They know what they are doing. At least after it has been going on for a while. Some of them probably learned in preschool that hitting the other kid got them the toy they wanted and they have been applying that same behavior ever since.

Sheesh, this is one of my "don't get me started," topics. And I get up n my soap box.

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Re: No Help From Mormon Bishops on Abuse

Post by Reuben » Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:29 am

alas wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:28 am
Sheesh, this is one of my "don't get me started," topics. And I get up n my soap box.
Please, soapbox it up. This stuff is important but not very well known. There are so many misconceptions, too. Educate us!
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.

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Re: No Help From Mormon Bishops on Abuse

Post by Thoughtful » Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:11 am

I could tell dozens of stories of Mormon bishops biffing it on response to abuse. Like clockwork, they tell the wife to stay and work it out. If wife says she can't, they coerce, threaten salvation, or suggest they will lose their children.

One of my friends is dead. Several others are divorced (4 last year alone), of these, all but one has left the church. One is currently in a motel, her bishop telling her to go back to him, and one is trying to figure out how to leave, while her bishop tells her to figure out how to stay. There are 3 women at church I strongly suspect are abused, their husbands are controlling and set off my "manipulator" alarm bells.

I do know one bishop who refers all marriage issues out to my colleague for counseling. The bishop, not being trained, feels unqualified to do counseling and refers out. There are a few reasonable ones.

There's a vital Twitter saying if churches taught women to spot and get away from abusers, they would leave their churches too.

It sure seems to be true... my friends and family who have left abuse by and large did not stay in the church. The ones still in are questioning too.

Everything seems to come back to tithing or polygamy. This seems to relate to both: culture of shame and silence, male domination and control, quiet wives not rocking the boat stay in church and continue to pay tithing.

I hope the media s****storm continues to expand until the church is forced to change handbooks and policies that currently aid abusers of women and children.

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