Good Advice from the old NOM forum

This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
Post Reply
User avatar
oximormon
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 7:14 am

Good Advice from the old NOM forum

Post by oximormon » Sat Nov 12, 2016 11:38 pm

I was cleaning up files on my computer and noticed that I had saved a few posts from the old NOM forum that I found particularly helpful.
I hope bradlee doesnt mind me sharing it again here.... I have read this over so many times, and it has helped me immensely. If only we had access to the database from the old forum. Its such a source of frustration that the old site disappeared without notice :-(

Oxi.
I can definitely empathize, Pedro. I was in a similar situation with my wife for a number of years. Except, she began having a lot of issues with the culture because 1) she was infertile and couldn't have kids for many years (we adopted about a year ago) and 2) she works, enjoys her job, and wants to continue working throughout her life (which traditional TBMs tend to take issue with).

You know your situation best, so I can't tell exactly what to do (although I wish I could). For what it's worth, I can tell you some things that have worked with my wife, and maybe you'll want to pursue a similar path.

1) I used the church doctrine of agency to my advantage. I have repeatedly told many people to whom I have come out that the LDS church policy is to invite to participate and persuade to believe, and nothing beyond. Everyone, no matter what social position they are in, should have a right to opt out of the LDS church without shame or blame. By trying to force, coerce, or manipulate someone to believe ideas that don't make sense to them, you essentially go against church policy. Divorce is a form of coercion. No one should have to experience divorce simply because they have different ideas about abstract concepts regarding history and the afterlife.

2) I stopped saying, "I don't believe x," and started saying, "x idea doesn't make sense to me/I don't understand x idea." By saying the former to a TBM, they impute the burden of proof to you. By saying the latter, they tend to assume the burden of proof for themselves and do not feel that their beliefs are targeted, just that you don't understand them fully and it would upon them to convince you (which is often too big of an undertaking for them, and they just let it go). If they say, "well you used to profess belief in x," I just say that my beliefs evolved, and they may evolve to the point where I believe in x again. But I haven't been able to understand x doctrine for a while.

3) I started making the issue less about history, doctrinal contradictions, and even social issues (like gay marriage), and more about testimony and covenant. The reason that most TBMs are TBMs is because they think that they literally had a personal witness/testimony of x number of LDS ideas. I just say, "come to think of it, I never actually had an experience that I would consider a personal witness or testimony, I thought that I did at some point, but now that I think about it, I didn't." Even if you consider yourself to have had a "testimony," it is more advantageous to you to say that you never had one. No one can question whether you actually had a witness of something or not. By that same token, don't question others' claims to have had personal witnesses. Most TBMs feel that they are obligated to the LDS church because of the idea that they made a covenant. On covenants, I say, "the church arranged for me to make a covenant with God. I am the covenantor and God is the covenantee. The LDS church, Thomas S. Monson, the LDS members, my family, and my spouse are not the covenantees, therefore they have no right to enforce that covenant through any sort of social punishment, only God, in the afterlife. It is a risk I take with God, yes, but one that I should be able to take in this earth life without shame or blame from other mortals." I reemphasize the principle of agency.

4) I stopped struggling with the church and admitted to myself that I had just lost interest in it. Including wearing garments, attending the temple, attending church (I still attend sacrament meeting with my wife and help her in the library), doing home teaching, accepting callings, going in for temple recommend interviews, and attending tithing settlement.

5) I emphasized moral principles that were emphasized in secular humanism (you seem like a secular humanist as well), especially those that coincided with the moral principles emphasized in Mormonism. I emphasized that morality is important and that the LDS church helped orient people towards a good moral framework and healthy way of living (now, I don't really believe this entirely, but it is what I tell TBMs).

6) Instead of trying to challenge the LDS church's truth claims head-on, I downplayed their importance. I would say, "I don't know if x doctrine is terribly important to nail down as true or not, but I know that moral commitment to spouses, service to a community, etc. are very important in the here and now."

7) I continue abstaining from alcohol, coffee, and tea. Some spouses may not mind their partners consuming these, but it helps the transition out of Mormonism if you abstain from these substances altogether (hey, you're used to it, right?).

8 ) I told my wife about paying tithing on the increase (as it is expressed in D&C) rather than net or gross. James E. Talmage's talk on tithing is very useful as well. Again, use the LDS church's most authoritative teachings about tithing to your advantage.

9) I made the goal no callings, no home teaching, no temple recommend renewal, no temple, no garments, and no tithing settlement. Paying a little tithing and attending a little church isn't so bad.

10) I have respected and supported my wife's decision to attend church and be active no matter her reasoning. I don't bring up uncomfortable doctrinal, historical, or social issues, and don't question her motive for participation. I don't openly question other people's reasons to be LDS and support their right to leave without shame and blame if they want.

11) I try to make a lot of non-LDS friends and integrate her in those friendships.

Six years ago, my wife responded to my hypothetical scenario in which I left the church by saying that she "couldn't support me." Now, after having made a huge transition out of church, our marriage is very good and the church is barely a source of tension.

.

User avatar
MalcolmVillager
Posts: 702
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:01 pm

Re: Good Advice from the old NOM forum

Post by MalcolmVillager » Sun Nov 13, 2016 4:07 pm

Thanks for finding this. I remember it. There is great advice here. I wish I could remember to do so many of these things as I disagree with friends and family. I think it can be helpful in defining boundaries without attacking or making it personal.

User avatar
2bizE
Posts: 2405
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 9:33 pm

Re: Good Advice from the old NOM forum

Post by 2bizE » Mon Nov 14, 2016 2:58 pm

Does anyone know where to find the talk on tithing by James Talmage described in the post.
~2bizE

User avatar
Red Ryder
Posts: 4144
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 5:14 pm

Re: Good Advice from the old NOM forum

Post by Red Ryder » Mon Nov 14, 2016 4:04 pm

2bizE wrote:Does anyone know where to find the talk on tithing by James Talmage described in the post.
It might be referring to this one from 1968 titled "the Lords Tenth". Talmage indicates tithes were offered on surplus after all needs of the individual were met.

http://www.cumorah.com/etexts/lordstenth.txt

A review of the talk and comparison to Hollands similar but cherry picked talk can be found here. Note the ellipses and parts removed by Holland (or his ghost writer). See appendix B about 3/4 of the way down the page.

http://www.i4m.com/think/intro/mormon-tithing.htm

Here's my favorite part. CAPs indicate what Holland removed and [brackets] indicate what he added.
(3) TALMAGE: AND, NOW, instead of doing as mortal landlords do-require you to CONTRACT WITH THEM to pay in advance, whatever your fortunes or your prospects may be-you shall pay me NOT IN ADVANCE, BUT when you have received; and you shall pay me in accordance with what you receive. If it so be that in one year your income is abundant, then YOU CAN AFFORD TO PAY ME a little more; and if it be so that the next year is one of distress and your income is not what it was, then YOU SHALL PAY ME LESS; AND SHOULD IT BE THAT YOU ARE REDUCED TO THE UTMOST PENURY SO THAT YOU HAVE NOTHING COMING IN, YOU WILL PAY ME NOTHING."

(3) HOLLAND: [so] instead of doing as mortal landlords do—requir[ing] you to ... pay in advance, whatever your fortunes or … prospects may be—you shall pay me … [only] when you have received; and you shall pay me in accordance with what you receive. If it so be that in one year your income is abundant, then … [YOUR 10 PERCENT will be a] little more; and if it be so that the next year is one of distress and your income is not what it was, then … [YOUR 10 PERCENT will be] less. … [WHATEVER YOUR CIRCUMSTANCE, THE TITHE WILL BE FAIR.]’
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 46 guests