Talking to family

This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
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didyoumythme
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Talking to family

Post by didyoumythme » Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:49 am

I went through my ‘faith crisis’ about a year and a half ago, and my parents haven’t talked to me about church stuff in a year. I brought up my concerns with them initially, but they refused to read/watch anything they considered critical, so we could never have meaningful conversations.

Recently, they said they are ‘almost ready to talk about things again’. The problem is, I’m am not super interested in talking about all the details anymore...that ship sailed a year ago as I studied things out and came to my own conclusions.

I may be willing to talk about ‘issues’ if they are interested, but is there any way to talk about these things without TBMs getting offended? Anytime I mention anything specific, they go into defense mode and I become the bad guy.

I’m not surprised by these responses anymore, but is there anyway around this? Are my only options to either avoid the topic or speak only in vague generalities that leave them thinking I ‘am lazy and just want to sin’?
When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease being honest, or cease being mistaken. - Anonymous

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Corsair
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Re: Talking to family

Post by Corsair » Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:25 am

Are they really read to talk or do they simply have their talking points that they want to deliver for you to receive? My family so far has not wanted to talk with me. Each time I have tried to open the conversation they accepted a bit of my perspective before retreating to their testimony and carefully ending the conversation.

Do you have a firm enough hold on your current beliefs to present them in a way to not threaten a brittle, LDS testimony? I started studying first and second century Christian history and after mentioning a few early names and events most Mormons back away slowly but still think that you are devout enough to not question your testimony.

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didyoumythme
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Re: Talking to family

Post by didyoumythme » Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:43 am

Corsair wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:25 am
Are they really read to talk or do they simply have their talking points that they want to deliver for you to receive?

Do you have a firm enough hold on your current beliefs to present them in a way to not threaten a brittle, LDS testimony?
I don't think they have talking points, because they know that won't change me. They say they are ready to talk about some of the typical issues in history...but they still go into defense mode at the drop of a hat. I think it would be more true to say they want to be ready to talk about issues, but they are still too committed to the traditional narrative to have a productive conversation.

I am confident in my current beliefs, which includes plenty of "I don't have the answer" responses ("but I know you don't have the answer either"). The problem is, I see no way to discuss my contrary beliefs without offending a Mormon.

For example -

"the book of mormon is not historical"
"mormon leaders do not receive special revelation"
"many stories told about mormon history are not true"
"the priesthood is not real"
etc.

I see no way to discuss these things without them getting offended. Unless I beat around the bush and speak really vaguely so as to not offend their delicate sensibilities. Any request for them to justify their beliefs is of course crossing the line.
When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease being honest, or cease being mistaken. - Anonymous

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No Tof
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Re: Talking to family

Post by No Tof » Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:49 am

I'm not as integrated as Corsair, but have been venturing back to the meeting house on occasion, to have more love at home and so far have had very few interested TBMs chatting me up.

I think a possible way to approach conversations would be to speak to the new and exciting information on the LDS.org site. Show them the essays on the site,(so they can see it is official and not a (cough) anti mormon lie factory, and see if they are interested in talking about those things. Let them do the reading and lead the conversation. Watch the "cog dis" begin to distill as dew on the grass on a bright spring day in June.

I fear, the interest expressed may be double speak for interest in challenging where you are and making efforts to bring you back.

A dose of love, mixed with firm boundary vigilance is a prudent course.

Hope it all goes smoothly.
Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and right doing, there is a field. I'll meet you there.
Rumi

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didyoumythme
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Re: Talking to family

Post by didyoumythme » Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:12 pm

My family knows about the essays and that people see issues. They just aren’t interested in discussion about them because they ‘feel the spirit leave’ and get offended by any contrary ideas.

I am wondering if there is any way to talk to them about my current beliefs and how I arrived there without offending them. In my experience, TBMs do not handle this very well. I presume that they subconsciously know their beliefs are not well founded, so they squirm when challenged.
When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease being honest, or cease being mistaken. - Anonymous

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wtfluff
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Re: Talking to family

Post by wtfluff » Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:18 pm

I'm with Brother Tof. ;)

Give them "homework". Once they've read the essays, then you can ask them questions about the essays. If they're unwilling to answer questions about things they've read on the church's official website, I think they should be able to see that they're not "ready" to talk about mormonism with you...

Edit: it seems you posted your last post while I was reading / typing... If they can't even read the essays, I think you should agree to disagree and not discuss religion at all.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

IDKSAF -RubinHighlander

You can surrender without a prayer...

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MalcolmVillager
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Re: Talking to family

Post by MalcolmVillager » Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:31 pm

This is tough stuff. My parents know something is up with my wife and me. My father has testified over and over to me and pleads that I not lose my testimony.

I shared with him that Noah's Arc, the garden of eden, and a 6k year old earth are not something I believe in. My dad has a 3 inch thick book from some fundamentalist Christian debunking science, age of the earth, and evolution claims. He says there are explanations.

I just can't talk to him. I don't want to win a debate or change his mind but he seems to feel responsible to change mine back.

What a mess.

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Unendowed
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Re: Talking to family

Post by Unendowed » Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:02 pm

didyoumythme wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:12 pm
I am wondering if there is any way to talk to them about my current beliefs and how I arrived there without offending them. In my experience, TBMs do not handle this very well. I presume that they subconsciously know their beliefs are not well founded, so they squirm when challenged.
The answer is not really, there is no good way to discuss problems with the church without offending your TBM family. At least that has been my experience. The church is so deeply ingrained into TBMs that it is part of their identity. They cannot distinguish between self and church. An attack on the church is a personal attack and self defense mechanisms will automatically kick in, fight or flight hormones are released, heart rates increase and emotions run high. I think if you have to have this conversation you need to stay away from details as much as possible and just talk about how you no longer believe in everything the church teaches anymore. It's a very difficult position to be in because you want to explain why you feel the way you do and hope to make them understand. Some people will never accept there are legitimate reasons to not believe in the church. It really sucks to have to be the person that always has to bites your tongue to keep the peace. That's why the middle way is so difficult.

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FiveFingerMnemonic
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Re: Talking to family

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:11 pm

Have you considered watching Richard Bushman's fireside where he answers the question about the dominant narrative and losing the grandsons in order not to offend the grandmothers? Do they know about Richard Bushman and Rough Stone Rolling?

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didyoumythme
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Re: Talking to family

Post by didyoumythme » Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:31 pm

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:11 pm
Have you considered watching Richard Bushman's fireside where he answers the question about the dominant narrative and losing the grandsons in order not to offend the grandmothers? Do they know about Richard Bushman and Rough Stone Rolling?
I have considered sending my family all sorts of things, but their mental gymnastics and "defend the church" reflexes are strong. I should try to get them to watch something like this again, but in the past they would never watch or read anything with all the "bad feelings" and what not.
When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease being honest, or cease being mistaken. - Anonymous

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didyoumythme
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Re: Talking to family

Post by didyoumythme » Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:35 pm

Unendowed wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:02 pm
The answer is not really, there is no good way to discuss problems with the church without offending your TBM family.
You are probably right about all of this. Should I try to help them see? Should I leave them in their ignorance?
When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease being honest, or cease being mistaken. - Anonymous

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JustHangingOn@57
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Re: Talking to family

Post by JustHangingOn@57 » Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:52 pm

My first instinct is to say, regrettably, that they are probably not interested in your opinions. From experience, they probably heard or read a talk that offers new gospel centered talking points that can be used when confronting one of gods lost lambs. In fact, I would imagine that said reactivation tool came with a faith inspiring story of success. The spirit is prompting them to use anything in their power to disentangle you from the snares of Satan. Hope that's not the case and they really want to try and understand you. Good luck!

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hiding in plain sight
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Re: Talking to family

Post by hiding in plain sight » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:04 am

JustHangingOn@57 wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:52 pm
My first instinct is to say, regrettably, that they are probably not interested in your opinions. From experience, they probably heard or read a talk that offers new gospel centered talking points that can be used when confronting one of gods lost lambs. In fact, I would imagine that said reactivation tool came with a faith inspiring story of success. The spirit is prompting them to use anything in their power to disentangle you from the snares of Satan. Hope that's not the case and they really want to try and understand you. Good luck!
I would have to agree with this as well.

If they are truly interested in finding the truth, they will go and dig into it themselves. Having a conversation with you will be more about finding reasons why your logic is flawed and why you are wrong.

And there is really no good way to bring up issues without it feeling like you are slapping them in their faces. Their beliefs are so integrally tied to who they are that a criticism of the church ultimately feels like a criticism of them.

Good luck as well.

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Mormorrisey
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Re: Talking to family

Post by Mormorrisey » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:18 am

I guess it all depends on how the discussion is framed, as other posters have identified. Good luck with your plan, I would just take it slow.

I've talked about my rather narcissistic mother on this board, and we are in a bit of a timeout because of church issues, and it looks like that's been extended. This is the email she sent to a sibling and I after conference:

"Are either of you ready yet to exit the great and spacious building, make your way back through the mists of darkness to the strait and narrow path, take hold of the iron rod and return to partake again of the fruit of the tree which was once so delicious to your taste?
I cannot abandon hope that one day it will be brought to the remembrance of you both who you really are, have always really been and to receive the courage and faith to embrace that persona once again."

Yeah, I won't be talking about church issues with Mommy anytime soon.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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FiveFingerMnemonic
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Re: Talking to family

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:23 am

Mormorrisey wrote:I guess it all depends on how the discussion is framed, as other posters have identified. Good luck with your plan, I would just take it slow.

I've talked about my rather narcissistic mother on this board, and we are in a bit of a timeout because of church issues, and it looks like that's been extended. This is the email she sent to a sibling and I after conference:

"Are either of you ready yet to exit the great and spacious building, make your way back through the mists of darkness to the strait and narrow path, take hold of the iron rod and return to partake again of the fruit of the tree which was once so delicious to your taste?
I cannot abandon hope that one day it will be brought to the remembrance of you both who you really are, have always really been and to receive the courage and faith to embrace that persona once again."

Yeah, I won't be talking about church issues with Mommy anytime soon.
Reading this gives me PTSD symptoms from interactions with my FIL. :)

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mooseman
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Re: Talking to family

Post by mooseman » Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:23 pm

In a weird way, count your blessings. I cant even begin to bring up issues, the essays ect with my dad without him going into bible thumping, brow beating you will surrender intimidation tactics that make you feel hes about to start swinging.

Seriously. Few years ago i mention an article i read in rational faiths about Nephis laments and how Nephi MAY of made a mistake killing Labin...turned into a 40 min, off the cuff tirade about how that was scripturally and doctrinally damning to even suggest.
When i was younger, i off handely said the min wage should be higher...and got a "1 on 1" cornered in his car about how we live by the "sweat of our brow" and how, as a priesthood holder, he and i had an obligation to our families to use every breath to provide both their temporal and eternal care so if i "expected" more pay i needed to be prepared for more spiritual responsibility because i wouldn't be "blessed" just so i could enjoy life because thats not why we were here....
You get the picture. Its why when he declares he "knows all about adam god" or anything topic like hes challenging me to a prize fight hes confident he'll win, i back down out of fear. He has no idea were i stand on church issues, that i havent been in a chapel in 3 years...and i dread my sisters upcoming wedding because i dont want the fight that will happen when he learns im not going. (No joke. I keep gs on hand to wear anytime i have interactions with my parents, since 1 time they caught me out of them and bought me new ones for my birthday since i didnt have enough pairs to get me through the week, which is why they decided i wasnt wearing them)

Anyway, im jealous you can at least talk to them without feeling like your being challenged to a WWE event.
It's frustrating to see the last resort in a discussion of facts be: I disregard those facts because of my faith. Why even talk about facts if the last resort is to put faith above all facts that are contrary to your faith?

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wtfluff
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Re: Talking to family

Post by wtfluff » Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:37 pm

Mormorrisey wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:18 am
"Are either of you ready yet to exit the great and spacious building, make your way back through the mists of darkness to the strait and narrow path, take hold of the iron rod and return to partake again of the fruit of the tree which was once so delicious to your taste?
I cannot abandon hope that one day it will be brought to the remembrance of you both who you really are, have always really been and to receive the courage and faith to embrace that persona once again."
Oh goodness... I can imagine my mother saying something similar to this.

I'm not technically "out" to my family, but if I heard something like that, I'd be tempted to reply: "Mom, the fruit of 'that tree' tastes like S#!t."
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

IDKSAF -RubinHighlander

You can surrender without a prayer...

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Red Ryder
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Re: Talking to family

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:30 pm

Mormorrisey wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:18 am
"Are either of you ready yet to exit the great and spacious building, make your way back through the mists of darkness to the strait and narrow path, take hold of the iron rod and return to partake again of the fruit of the tree which was once so delicious to your taste?
Read this in the movie trailer guy's voice and this sounds like the introduction to a really good mormon satire movie?

Can I borrow this?
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

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Mormorrisey
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Re: Talking to family

Post by Mormorrisey » Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:01 am

Red Ryder wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:30 pm
Mormorrisey wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:18 am
"Are either of you ready yet to exit the great and spacious building, make your way back through the mists of darkness to the strait and narrow path, take hold of the iron rod and return to partake again of the fruit of the tree which was once so delicious to your taste?
Read this in the movie trailer guy's voice and this sounds like the introduction to a really good mormon satire movie?

Can I borrow this?
Only if you add, in the same voice, "But one man decided to end the cycle of oppression, and refused to compromise." Or something like that.

In all seriousness, thanks to mooseman, FFM and wtfluff for your shared pain. And sorry to threadjack, didyoumythme, and I surely hope you find a good balance in your discussions with your family. Just being matter of fact, and using facts, not hyperbole, seems to have worked with most TBM's who've actually engaged with me. Which haven't been many, to be honest.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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GoodBoy
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Re: Talking to family

Post by GoodBoy » Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:38 pm

Now might be a better time to talk about it than before. Because as apathy towards the church increases you can be more rational about the church's importance relative to your relationships with people you really care about. This usually means you can just let things go and hate the stupidity while loving the stupid.
Always been the good kid, but I wanted to know more, and to find and test truth.

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