Infected with Doubt

[slavereeno]

My BIL just sent me a PDF copy of this:

http://www.dialoguejournal.com/archive/ ... fall-2017/

BIL has some shelf items but says he has "a firm testimony of Joseph Smith" he talks to me about stuff because I am the only one that will listen objectively without getting all anxious. I don't know what his point is in sending me the article. Sometimes, I misread his intentions. I want to be supportive but I am not sure how to respond. He offers no personal message in his email just this. I would appreciate any thoughts or suggestions?

TL;Dr:

A study called, “Infected with Doubt: An Empirical Overview of Belief and Non-belief in Contemporary American Mormonism” by Benjamin Knoll and Jana Riess.

The study gathered in-depth information from 1,156 self-identified American Mormons. This excluded those identified as former Mormons. Here are some of the findings:

• 49.1% - “I believe wholeheartedly in all the teachings of the LDS Church”
• 33.9% - “I believe many or most of the teachings of the LDS Church”
• 12.2% - “Some of the teachings of the LDS Church are hard for me to believe”

From the study, “It’s is notable that the number of family members who have left the Church does not make an independent difference in predicting the likelihood of someone being a Doubter once controlling for other factors. Friends leaving the Church seems to matter more than family leaving the Church.”

Doubters view traditional sources of authority, such as LDS general authorities and local leaders with less moral authority than believers. Doubters see the primary source of moral authority as their personal conscience and family members.

Doubters feel tired or burned out when they attend church. In asking whether they agree with this statement, “At the end of church, I usually feel tired or burned out”, 11.4% of believers agreed, whereas 60.4% of doubters agreed.

For those who identify themselves as former Mormons, the study asked what age they had disaffiliated. For those who are millennials, the average age of disaffiliation is 18.4 years, whereas for GenX is was 21.1 years and those of Boomers was 23.7 years.

[Mormorrisey]

I might not be the best person to have an objective viewpoint, as I'm big Jana and Ben fans. She/he may be TBMs, but they are pretty nuanced in some things.

So in sending this, it seems to me that he can see the problems, but doesn't know how to address them with the believers around him, and goes to the apostate for a little validation. So maybe just say thanks for sending me this, and I agree with a lot of what they say. And then wait to see for further responses. Just a thought. Good luck!

[didyoumythme]

You should ask him what he likes about the study to understand why he is sharing it with you. Guessing his intentions could get you in trouble.

Maybe he is saying that he won’t let his testimony be shaken by you?

At the end of church, I usually feel tired or burned out

This doesn’t show cause and effect, just correlation. I don’t think feeling burned out leads to non-belief, but once members stop believing, church feels much more like a chore. Just a thought.

[slavereeno]

Good advices. I am trying to keep things light. I remarked on some things I liked about the paper and asked if he thought belief and faith were the same thing. I also asked if he was familiar with the term cognitive dissonance. I hope that ends up not getting me into trouble.

[Reuben]

Good advices. I am trying to keep things light. I remarked on some things I liked about the paper and asked if he thought belief and faith were the same thing. I also asked if he was familiar with the term cognitive dissonance. I hope that ends up not getting me into trouble.

My daughter said she knew that term from reading it at FAIRMormon, after using it correctly to describe how she was feeling about something. You might be safe using it.

[Brent]

If you can be infected with doubt...can you be infected with belief?

[Not Buying It]

I HATE that phrase “infected with doubt”. Right away it implies something is wrong with the doubter. In my opinion, doubt is the appropriate response to the lack of evidence for - and to the evidence against - the truth claims of the LDS Church.

The appropriate phrase is “informed by doubt”.

[Corsair]

I HATE that phrase “infected with doubt”. Right away it implies something is wrong with the doubter. In my opinion, doubt is the appropriate response to the lack of evidence for - and to the evidence against - the truth claims of the LDS Church.

We don't go around as missionaries trying to "infect people with the spirit". That's a terrible door approach. "We love to share our spiritual infection with you!"

My guess is that with a title like "Infected with Doubt" it will be slightly more palatable for strong LDS believers. I don't know Benjamin Knoll, but Jana Riess is a rather liberal believer. A title connecting "doubt" with "infection" makes it more likely for my devout family to read it while only making me roll my eyes sooner than expected.

I do like the statistics that they gathered. I would love to see the rate of apostasy in the church, but this is also helpful. I am annoyed that my disaffection was at age 38 instead of 21.1 for GenX in the study.

[oliblish]

We can certainly be infected with true church history. That is why we need to inoculate the children after all...

[wtfluff]

If you can be infected with doubt...can you be infected with belief?

If you want an interesting take on this thought, check out a book named "The God Virus".

[didyoumythme]

I HATE that phrase “infected with doubt”. Right away it implies something is wrong with the doubter. In my opinion, doubt is the appropriate response to the lack of evidence for - and to the evidence against - the truth claims of the LDS Church.

The appropriate phrase is “informed by doubt”.

Doubt/disbelief is the default position for all unsupported claims. The church tries to throw all their claims back at the exmos by saying “then you explain everything about the universe”. But of course, “I don’t know” is the best position to take in most cases.

They have to offer support for their wild claims, we don’t need support for our doubt.

[Corsair]

We can certainly be infected with true church history. That is why we need to inoculate the children after all...

Recommended vaccinations for children of LDS parents:

1. Chickenpox (varicella) vaccine
2. Diphtheria, tetanus, and pertussis vaccine (DTaP)
3. Hepatitis A vaccine (HepA)
4. Human papillomavirus (HPV) vaccine
5. Influenza vaccine
6. Measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine (MMR)
7. Pneumococcal vaccine (PCV)
8. General LDS history innoculation
9. Plural marriage, Polyandry booster
10. "Speaking as a man" discernment vaccine
11. Translation issues, both BoM and BoA vaccine variants
12. Porn avoidance/Chastity mindset/Purity interview tolerance vaccines

LDS parents who decline medical vaccinations are nevertheless urged to pursue the ecclesiastical vaccinations by age 8.

[Margarita]

As I see it...the numbers they have are slightly off..depending on the polls age wise. In my view..the average age is disaffection from the church is different..a lot of us boomers are gone and out ..leaving many of our children behind ..I resigned in 2008...after over 40 years in the church ..thousands are like me.

[slavereeno]

My guess is that with a title like "Infected with Doubt" it will be slightly more palatable for strong LDS believers. I don't know Benjamin Knoll, but Jana Riess is a rather liberal believer. A title connecting "doubt" with "infection" makes it more likely for my devout family to read it while only making me roll my eyes sooner than expected.

Hmm, I never know how exactly i feel about "liberal" believers...

I do like the statistics that they gathered. I would love to see the rate of apostasy in the church, but this is also helpful. I am annoyed that my disaffection was at age 38 instead of 21.1 for GenX in the study.

Quit yer complainin' I had to wait until I was 43

[slavereeno]

I HATE that phrase “infected with doubt”. Right away it implies something is wrong with the doubter. In my opinion, doubt is the appropriate response to the lack of evidence for - and to the evidence against - the truth claims of the LDS Church.

The appropriate phrase is “informed by doubt”.

+1 for this and Brent's comment. This was my feeling also it casts a negative connotation by the title's implication.

[slavereeno]

If you want an interesting take on this thought, check out a book named "The God Virus".

I will look into this

[slavereeno]

Update: BIL asked why I brought up cog-dis. We had previously discussed stages of faith and I said "You cannot progress from stage 3 to 4 without heavy doses of Cog-dis and doubt" That made him think (maybe), but I got no response other than that he believed Jana Reiss and Mormon Stories to be far too "out there" for him.

He understands the stages of faith based on an article by a TBM. To him they look like this:

stage 2: belief borrowed from parents
stage 3: belief borrowed from leadership
stage 4: questioning belief a little and probably its a sin when you are doing it.
stage 5: own belief of the same stuff from stages 2 and 3

My (way oversimplified) understanding of the faith stages, (I have read the book):
stage 2: borrowed belief
stage 3: literal belief
stage 4: unbelief
stage 5: symbolic belief

I think I got away with telling him I was stage 4, because he misunderstands the stages, or has a TBM interpretation of them (he's never read the book) For example he thinks my Dad is stage 5, but my Dad is at best a 2-3. If he knew the real meaning of the stages I think the cat would be out of the bag.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

Update: BIL asked why I brought up cog-dis. We had previously discussed stages of faith and I said "You cannot progress from stage 3 to 4 without heavy doses of Cog-dis and doubt" That made him think (maybe), but I got no response other than that he believed Jana Reiss and Mormon Stories to be far too "out there" for him.

He understands the stages of faith based on an article by a TBM. To him they look like this:

stage 2: belief borrowed from parents
stage 3: belief borrowed from leadership
stage 4: questioning belief a little and probably its a sin when you are doing it.
stage 5: own belief of the same stuff from stages 2 and 3

My (way oversimplified) understanding of the faith stages, (I have read the book):
stage 2: borrowed belief
stage 3: literal belief
stage 4: unbelief
stage 5: symbolic belief

I think I got away with telling him I was stage 4, because he misunderstands the stages, or has a TBM interpretation of them (he's never read the book) For example he thinks my Dad is stage 5, but my Dad is at best a 2-3. If he knew the real meaning of the stages I think the cat would be out of the bag.

This is pretty interesting, in debates with my father in law he claimed to be stage 5 without needing to go through 4.

[slavereeno]

This is pretty interesting, in debates with my father in law he claimed to be stage 5 without needing to go through 4.

So what are your FILs beliefs? Because my BIL thinks he is stage 4-5 and I think he 3 but looking over the wall at 4. Fowler suggests you can't skip stages, or that he never had observed a human that could move to a stage without having spent years in the previous stage.

Stage 5 Persons:

• Should be open to truths found in other religions, even truths NOT found in their own religion

• Should not be threatened by anything said about their religion

• Should never include the phrase "one and only true church" in their testimony

• Should love, respect and be genuinely happy for someone who leaves the church even see it as a great step forward

• Should be willing to admit falsehoods, frauds, and problems with their religious tradition and leaders, even if they are still participating

• Should be supportive and respectful of other peoples faith traditions

• Are more rare than most people think

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

This is pretty interesting, in debates with my father in law he claimed to be stage 5 without needing to go through 4.

So what are your FILs beliefs? Because my BIL thinks he is stage 4-5 and I think he 3 but looking over the wall at 4. Fowler suggests you can't skip stages, or that he never had observed a human that could move to a stage without having spent years in the previous stage.

Stage 5 Persons:

• Should be open to truths found in other religions, even truths NOT found in their own religion

• Should not be threatened by anything said about their religion

• Should never include the phrase "one and only true church" in their testimony

• Should love, respect and be genuinely happy for someone who leaves the church even see it as a great step forward

• Should be willing to admit falsehoods, frauds, and problems with their religious tradition and leaders, even if they are still participating

• Should be supportive and respectful of other peoples faith traditions

• Are more rare than most people think

Seeing as how he is quite orthodox I personally label him as a 3 but he defensively feels he is a 5. I admit the possibility that fowler's buckets can't be universally applied, but more likely anytime you introduce the stages concept to TBMs of course they are going to feel they are advanced in nuanced belief defensively. Just like pre faith crisis when I felt I had a good handle on all the issues when in reality I knew very little.

This is a flaw in using Fowler's divisions as a tool to try and educate stage 3 people.

Since stages are numeric, people will feel unfairly judged and somehow lesser for being labeled.