3 Things I have questions about

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Thoughtful
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3 Things I have questions about

Post by Thoughtful » Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:38 pm

1-I played the organ today and on my way up to the stand, the HC speaker "looked me up and down." I am wearing a largely shapeless dress with a sweater over it. It hits right above my knee, with Capri leggings underneath.

This HC speaker, when he was bishop of a different ward, used to ask the YW very inappropriate questions.

My clothing was modest according to garment standards. I am having a very good hair day though.

Is him looking at me like this causing me to sin because I'm picturing how satisfying it would be to see him suddenly spontaneously combust?

2- My middle school daughter is texting a boy she went to a movie with (read: she and friend ran into boy and his friend at movie, she say by him,) now he's texting her asking her to come to the park. I am not sure how I feel about him, but do not trust his best friend at all. How to proceed?

3- They reorganized the primary presidency. The new PP was formerly gay - married. She divorced and married a man when the POX happened. They called the YWP as a counselor. This makes me think, in the years I've lived here, I've only had music callings. All the other music ppl have 2 and 3 callings at the same time. Im at church nearly every week. I participate. I nuance my answers a bit, but not too crazy. I have a temple recommend. Chance would predict I would have been called to a presidency or even as a teacher by now, when they cannot seem to keep anything staffed. Clearly my bishop isn't a stickler to the handbook based on the new P.P. who should have an annotated record by now. And yet it doesn't happen. Why am I blacklisted? Spouseman says it's not that I'm unlikable, but more that it's obvious I cannot be manipulated. But I feel rejected everytime this happens, even knowing I probably wouldn't accept a presidency call anyway. The other part of me feels like sticking around would be easier if I had a reason to buy in. Is it my mandated reporter status & social media posts condemning abuse and Donald Trump? The nuanced answers in GD?

Reuben
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Re: 3 Things I have questions about

Post by Reuben » Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:44 pm

1. Yes, his look caused you to sin. Fair's fair. You caused him to sin first by wearing a scandalous outfit.

2. I would be open with my daughter about my doubts if I had concrete reasons to doubt. Otherwise... no idea. I might tell her that my intuition was buzzing, but make it clear that it could mean nothing at all.

3. IIRC, blacklisting people who are mandatory reporters only holds for bishops and other leaders who are expected to hear confessions, but I could be wrong. Maybe your leaders just never felt right about putting you into leadership but can't put their fingers on why not. The Mormon Magic 8 Ball taps into the subconscious, after all. It might have something to do with what your husband said.

Or it could be your scandalous outfits. Put away those porn Capris, Sister Thoughtful, before you make a brother stumble.
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.

Thoughtful
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Re: 3 Things I have questions about

Post by Thoughtful » Sun Apr 15, 2018 3:38 pm

Reuben wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:44 pm
1. Yes, his look caused you to sin. Fair's fair. You caused him to sin first by wearing a scandalous outfit.

2. I would be open with my daughter about my doubts if I had concrete reasons to doubt. Otherwise... no idea. I might tell her that my intuition was buzzing, but make it clear that it could mean nothing at all.

3. IIRC, blacklisting people who are mandatory reporters only holds for bishops and other leaders who are expected to hear confessions, but I could be wrong. Maybe your leaders just never felt right about putting you into leadership but can't put their fingers on why not. The Mormon Magic 8 Ball taps into the subconscious, after all. It might have something to do with what your husband said.

Or it could be your scandalous outfits. Put away those porn Capris, Sister Thoughtful, before you make a brother stumble.
Im wearing a bag with a sweater over and pants under. The outline of my knees through the capris you think?

And this is worse than having been gay - married? Should I take a lover?

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Perfigliano
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Re: 3 Things I have questions about

Post by Perfigliano » Sun Apr 15, 2018 3:50 pm

I think he was being sarcastic.
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Reuben
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Re: 3 Things I have questions about

Post by Reuben » Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:12 pm

Thoughtful wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 3:38 pm
Im wearing a bag with a sweater over and pants under. The outline of my knees through the capris you think?

And this is worse than having been gay - married? Should I take a lover?
Yes, it's worse. You don't give off the right signals that you're one of the tribe. In Mormonism, "one of us" means "good" and "not one of us" means "bad." You're in an unsettling state between the two.

So you obviously need to go "bad" and then "repent." I think you should totally take a lesbian lover. That's a great idea, Sister Thoughtful. Make sure there's plenty of PDA when the HC dude is around, to cause him to sin. You should both wear bags with sweaters over and pants under to feed his Ferengi modesty fetish. Then break up with her and repent in sackcloth and ashes. You'll be PP or RSP in no time.
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.

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deacon blues
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Re: 3 Things I have questions about

Post by deacon blues » Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:23 pm

I understand your frustration. To be fair, its possible that you would have these same problems in another church, but it is also possible to find another church where you wouldn't have these type of problems.
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

Thoughtful
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Re: 3 Things I have questions about

Post by Thoughtful » Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:02 pm

deacon blues wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:23 pm
I understand your frustration. To be fair, its possible that you would have these same problems in another church, but it is also possible to find another church where you wouldn't have these type of problems.
In another church, I would at least get paid to play the organ.

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alas
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Re: 3 Things I have questions about

Post by alas » Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:15 pm

I had the same problem, only with no usable musical talent...well, I can lead music, but I won't sing up in front so I *wont* lead music. But anyway, I went ten years fully active and never given any calling at all. I was a VT, because everyone is a VT, but no callings and I even asked the bishop and he just shrugged. Well, THAT was helpful. But apparently I was not blacklisted, just neglected. I guess I was just not sending off the Molly Mormon vibes.

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RubinHighlander
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Re: 3 Things I have questions about

Post by RubinHighlander » Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:44 am

1-He's either overly judgmental or a creep or both - either way it's most likely he's just a douchbag!

2- Our daughter turned 16 this year. She's the last one of six and so far the most difficult. She's proven several times now she's not trustworthy when it comes to us giving her freedom to hang out with friends and end up doing things she shouldn't. Although we've been out of the church for a couple years now, she knows there are expectations that have not changed, like sex and underage drinking. We try to give her opportunities to earn the trust back and there are times she can prove herself. It's the normal teenage pushing of boundaries. We ask lots of questions about friends she wants to hang out with, boys she wants to date. We ask to meet them, ask her about how much she knows about them, who else will be there, etc. Raising teens just sucks!

3- My DW put up with a lot of this. It wasn't that she wanted to be Primary Prez but she noticed how often she was passed over and basically stuck in nursery or instructing. Bishops and leaders do a lot of judging, sizing folks up for new callings to see who will not resist and who will do a kick butt job so they don't have to worry about it. They pick on the 5-10 "Great" families in the ward, that are not already working for the Stake, and rotate them through those leadership callings. I was at a regional conf. with DHO once and he even called the Bishops out on this issue and told them they need to dig deeper to involve more folks in the big callings. So it's really a systemic issue, at least behind the Zion curtain. I think my DW was on the 2nd class citizen list because we were a 2nd marriage melded family and she has a personality type that does not tollerate BS, especially from priesthood leaders.

When a priesthood leaders perceives a sister does not humbly and unconditionally submit to priesthood BS authority he will avoid her. I think if you ever spoke your mind in GD or gave a talk that was not right in line with the supressed "meow meow meow" tone of a church broke sister, you could end up on that list of 2nd class members and therefore kept in the lower ranks of callings all the remainder of your church going days.
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
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MerrieMiss
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Re: 3 Things I have questions about

Post by MerrieMiss » Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:35 am

Regarding number 3 -

So far as music callings go, that seems pretty normal. Most people I know who do music at church get stuck in it and never seem to get out.

I've always had this problem and I think a few people on this board have said a lot of true and helpful things. I am certain there is a vibe I give out that says I'm just not right for the job. Even when I was a believer I had it. I've been in a few presidencies, but never a president, and when I challenged the bishopric on something once, the entire presidency was promptly released (president moved, but we hadn't been in long and I'm sure the bishop didn't care for my straightforward way of handling things, he was so passive aggressive). Last year we moved into a struggling, inner-city ward and so did another family. She was put in YW right away and now she's in the presidency. I didn't get a calling for six months and now I have a very quiet behind the scenes entirely NOMish calling. It's the best calling I could have, but I can't help but think there'e something behind it. I complained to my dad about it and he said I was thinking about it too hard, they just need to fit people into callings that will say yes. I don't know. In a ward that struggles, it just seems odd. And I understand it when you say it would be easier to stick around if you had a reason to buy in.

And I do wear the right clothes. I don't say anything inflammatory. I don't say anything at all. I have a TR. But I don't walk the walk the right way. I never have. I have never fit in. I do not want to be in YW, but I'm not stupid and I know that's where the women on the top of the ward hierarchy are and I'm a little hurt that somehow it is so obvious I don't belong. Truly, the church is high school for life.

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moksha
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Re: 3 Things I have questions about

Post by moksha » Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:33 pm

Thoughtful wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:38 pm
Is him looking at me like this causing me to sin because I'm picturing how satisfying it would be to see him suddenly spontaneously combust?
Perfectly normal, it might even be considered out of the ordinary for listeners not to imagine the Dry Council speaker spontaneously combusting. Having a speaker who is also a prig calls for a brighter combustion.

But I feel rejected everytime this happens, even knowing I probably wouldn't accept a presidency call anyway.
Who wants to join an organization that would have them as a member? However, it is nice to be recognized as being capable of something greater or at least different.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

Reuben
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Re: 3 Things I have questions about

Post by Reuben » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:21 am

RubinHighlander wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:44 am
When a priesthood leaders perceives a sister does not humbly and unconditionally submit to priesthood BS authority he will avoid her. I think if you ever spoke your mind in GD or gave a talk that was not right in line with the supressed "meow meow meow" tone of a church broke sister, you could end up on that list of 2nd class members and therefore kept in the lower ranks of callings all the remainder of your church going days.
I want to ensure that we don't all end up thinking this is always true, because it's not.

In my current ward and last ward, both the YW president and RS president have been women who don't put up with BS regardless of the gender of the person spewing it. It wasn't because these women were the only ones available, because the wives in those 5-10 "great" families weren't all that way. I worked with the last bishop in leadership quite a bit because I was the HPGL, and the current one because I was YM president. Knowing them and their leadership styles as I do, I'm comfortable claiming that they called these presidents partly because of their strong personalities and willingness to speak up. Those bishops valued their input and even pushback.

In fact, I witnessed more than once, in our last ward's ward council, the bishop being told by the RS president that an idea that came from bishopric meeting he was presenting wasn't very good. The bishop asked for alternatives, she gave them, we discussed them and accepted one, he genuinely thanked her, and we moved on. He also asked multiple times for some light extemporaneous education in her area of expertise.

Both bishops are intelligent, kind, thoughtful, and humble. The last was a Sunstone reader. The current one is married to a working biochemist. I can't speak on Thoughtful's bishop, but I can say it's a fact that not every leader in the church is an orthodox, misogynist pig-dog. In the well-educated wards I've mostly been part of, those kind seem to have been rare.
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.

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redjay
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Re: 3 Things I have questions about

Post by redjay » Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:24 am

Thoughtful wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:38 pm
Why am I blacklisted? Spouseman says it's not that I'm unlikable, but more that it's obvious I cannot be manipulated. But I feel rejected everytime this happens, even knowing I probably wouldn't accept a presidency call anyway.
Move to Europe within three weeks you'll be the RS and your husband the Bishop.

Short on bodies in this neck of the woods.

That is, as long as you don't insist on dressing like a hooker :?
At the halfway home. I'm a full-grown man. But I'm not afraid to cry.

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RubinHighlander
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Re: 3 Things I have questions about

Post by RubinHighlander » Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:11 am

Reuben wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:21 am
In fact, I witnessed more than once, in our last ward's ward council, the bishop being told by the RS president that an idea that came from bishopric meeting he was presenting wasn't very good. The bishop asked for alternatives, she gave them, we discussed them and accepted one, he genuinely thanked her, and we moved on. He also asked multiple times for some light extemporaneous education in her area of expertise.
That's good to hear Reuben! I hope that is the trend moving forward, that it's not just lip service and placating, but real respect and equal leadership.
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
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Reuben
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Re: 3 Things I have questions about

Post by Reuben » Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:37 am

RubinHighlander wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:11 am
Reuben wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:21 am
In fact, I witnessed more than once, in our last ward's ward council, the bishop being told by the RS president that an idea that came from bishopric meeting he was presenting wasn't very good. The bishop asked for alternatives, she gave them, we discussed them and accepted one, he genuinely thanked her, and we moved on. He also asked multiple times for some light extemporaneous education in her area of expertise.
That's good to hear Reuben! I hope that is the trend moving forward, that it's not just lip service and placating, but real respect and equal leadership.
So do I. I suspect it's like every other social thing, wherein the church functions almost exclusively to give momentum to the thing, whether it's good or bad. In more religiously progressive and educated areas, even in the Morridor, the momentum seems to be reduced. Elsewhere... well, I expect sexism to be like racism, sometimes lagging many decades behind, with great weight added by tradition, past teachings, and the church's refusal to admit wrong lest it diminish believers' faith.

Sorry I was so blunt in my earlier reply.

[/threadjack?]
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.

Thoughtful
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Re: 3 Things I have questions about

Post by Thoughtful » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:22 pm

redjay wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:24 am
Thoughtful wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:38 pm
Why am I blacklisted? Spouseman says it's not that I'm unlikable, but more that it's obvious I cannot be manipulated. But I feel rejected everytime this happens, even knowing I probably wouldn't accept a presidency call anyway.
Move to Europe within three weeks you'll be the RS and your husband the Bishop.

Short on bodies in this neck of the woods.

That is, as long as you don't insist on dressing like a hooker :?
My ward is small, not in Utah, and most active ppl have 2-3 callings. Including Spouseman. Including all the other music people.

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IT_Veteran
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Re: 3 Things I have questions about

Post by IT_Veteran » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:21 pm

Thoughtful wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:22 pm
redjay wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:24 am
Thoughtful wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:38 pm
Why am I blacklisted? Spouseman says it's not that I'm unlikable, but more that it's obvious I cannot be manipulated. But I feel rejected everytime this happens, even knowing I probably wouldn't accept a presidency call anyway.
Move to Europe within three weeks you'll be the RS and your husband the Bishop.

Short on bodies in this neck of the woods.

That is, as long as you don't insist on dressing like a hooker :?
My ward is small, not in Utah, and most active ppl have 2-3 callings. Including Spouseman. Including all the other music people.
Are you in my ward?

Anon70
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Re: 3 Things I have questions about

Post by Anon70 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:41 pm

MerrieMiss wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:35 am
And I do wear the right clothes. I don't say anything inflammatory. I don't say anything at all. I have a TR. But I don't walk the walk the right way. I never have. I have never fit in. I do not want to be in YW, but I'm not stupid and I know that's where the women on the top of the ward hierarchy are and I'm a little hurt that somehow it is so obvious I don't belong. Truly, the church is high school for life.
this is me! and "high school for life" is an apt description. I was never in the popular group in school and I'm not in church--never have been.

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Advocate
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Re: 3 Things I have questions about

Post by Advocate » Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:22 pm

Anon70 wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:41 pm
MerrieMiss wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:35 am
And I do wear the right clothes. I don't say anything inflammatory. I don't say anything at all. I have a TR. But I don't walk the walk the right way. I never have. I have never fit in. I do not want to be in YW, but I'm not stupid and I know that's where the women on the top of the ward hierarchy are and I'm a little hurt that somehow it is so obvious I don't belong. Truly, the church is high school for life.
this is me! and "high school for life" is an apt description. I was never in the popular group in school and I'm not in church--never have been.
I see this all the time. It is very common to see presidencies where the president is "inspired" to call his/her best friend into the presidency. I'm sure the president did feel good about the call, but the reason for feeling good is because humans like to be around people that like us and are like us. If you don't fit the standard social mold of the ward, then it is unlikely you will be in many presidencies. It's just the way the church works because inspiration in the church is rare, it tends to work off of human nature/intuition more.

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oliver_denom
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Re: 3 Things I have questions about

Post by oliver_denom » Fri Apr 20, 2018 4:48 am

Reuben wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:12 pm
Thoughtful wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 3:38 pm
Im wearing a bag with a sweater over and pants under. The outline of my knees through the capris you think?

And this is worse than having been gay - married? Should I take a lover?
Yes, it's worse. You don't give off the right signals that you're one of the tribe. In Mormonism, "one of us" means "good" and "not one of us" means "bad." You're in an unsettling state between the two.
It's 100% this. Mormonism is a high context culture, and to advance, you need to fit a very specific type based on your gender, age, and family status. If you step outside the leftovers norms, then you're out. It could be something as small as smiling or not smiling at the right time, the clothes you wear, or who you compliment and when. This is what makes Mormonism so attractive to sociopaths, these things are easily manipulated if you know them.
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