Ex-Mormonism is just as crazy as Mormonism!

This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
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Red Ryder
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Ex-Mormonism is just as crazy as Mormonism!

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:51 pm

I've been bothered by the realization that Exmormonism is just as silly and crazy as Mormonism and points out the infantilism the church creates in it's members and former members. I've also realized there are TWO echo chambers and I'm standing directly centered between them both!

Mormons incessantly sit around and talk about:
General Conference (Feast on the word of God)
Apostles and prophets (they're awesome!)
Ministering (new revelation, yessssssss please!)
Word of wisdom (Coffee and beer are bad!!)
Temple (isn't it wonderful! New G's yaaaaay!)
Missionaries (let's open the mail on FB live!)
Families (sad/crazy for leaving the church)
Marriage (1 man, 1 woman)

The mormon culture is annoying and childish.
All things mormon (list too long to type out!)

Exmos incessantly sit around and talk about:
General Conference (how lame it is)
Apostles and prophets (how white they are)
Ministering (how it is the same old thing)
Word of wisdom (how great is coffee and beer!)
Temple (how dumb it is; and garments? Please!)
Missionaries (robotic kids in cult training)
Families (how crazy the TBMs in our lives are)
Marriage (2 men, 2 women, whatev? Just love!)

The exmormon culture is annoying and childish.
Look at my shoulders!
I got drunk today!
Look at my tattoo!
I'm dropping out of BYU-I!
Look what I can do!
Every Bishop is a pervert!
Kenyan's pay tithing?? No F'ing way!!!!!!
Don't drink to rebel... Drink to (insert reason)!
MormonLeaks? Oh yeah it's Tuesday!!
John Dehlin is THE MAN!
What else has the church F'ed up today?
Burn it the F down!!!
F everyone!!

Are we NOM's just dumb enough to stand between TWO echo chambers? I think so.
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Silver Girl
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Re: Ex-Mormonism is just as crazy as Mormonism!

Post by Silver Girl » Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:58 pm

Don't forget all the talk about underwear (new styles, etc.)
.
.
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w2mz
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Re: Ex-Mormonism is just as crazy as Mormonism!

Post by w2mz » Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:18 pm

Probably, but I think exmormonism has a shelf life. Those who CAN detach eventually do. (Think Star Stuff, Bugoy1, GD Teacher, and all the others). They’ve all moved on while their TBM counterparts continue to perpetually cray.

I’m on NOM mostly to keep my sanity because I live with TBMs all around me. Believe me, I love you all, but I’d probably be less frequently if I didn’t have the LDS psychos keeping me hostage.

That said, the NOMs here have talked me off the ledge multiple times, and I’ve made some irl friendships that I cherish with people here.
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RubinHighlander
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Re: Ex-Mormonism is just as crazy as Mormonism!

Post by RubinHighlander » Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:30 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:51 pm
Are we NOM's just dumb enough to stand between TWO echo chambers? I think so.
Yupperz - I just pleaded guilty in my latest thread on tribalism. :shock:
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Not Buying It
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Re: Ex-Mormonism is just as crazy as Mormonism!

Post by Not Buying It » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:13 pm

I agree, there is a lot of immaturity on Reddit. “Annoying and childish” is an accurate way to describe much of it.

But is the exmormon echo chamber different? I’d argue yes, for a couple of reasons. As previously mentioned, most people transition out of it, it isn’t like people are posting pictures of their “porn shoulders” for years. Sure, some people like Steve Benson and John Dehlin never get out of it, but they are hardly typical. In the Mormon echo chamber, there is no transition out, unless you either lose your faith or die. The exmormon echo chamber is a transitional state for most people, not a final destination.

Second, the Mormon echo chamber is all about people reassuring themselves that they really believe all that ridiculous crap despite how ridiculous it is, while exmormons generally don’t have to reassure themselves. Exmormons aren’t seeking validation, most of them don’t need it. Some of them are seeking support maybe, but they don’t need to keep reassuring themselves the Church isn’t what it claims to be. A lot of them need to vent about the craziness that their believing loved ones cause in their lives, but I don’t sense most of them feel the need to “strengthen their lack of faith”. Most of them feel it’s pretty clear it’s all a load of hooey - the echo chamber doesn’t serve to reinforce their beliefs like it does for members. I see people seeking support, I see people celebrating their freedom from lies and deception - but I don’t see them trying to strengthen their non-testimony.

But I agree, I wish a lot of them would be more mature about it.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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mooseman
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Re: Ex-Mormonism is just as crazy as Mormonism!

Post by mooseman » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:35 pm

Personally, i think "between two echo chambers" is a good place to be. Hard, but good. It keeps me from going to far to either extreme, understand the talking points, realize when something is being blown way out of proportion and consider things from a different angle. Ultimately, it helps me thing for myself (imho at least).
On facebook im in CALM, MORMON 2.0, my ward, bill reel and so on..and i do it for politcal stuff too. I try to keep a mix of friends in the republican camp, democrate camp, and i dont give acrap camp, as well as papers that clearly lean left or right. Its funny to see what each side gets superworked up about and the other side has no idea exist.
Ultimately, if im between 2 bubbles im not in either one and i think thats a good thing.
It's frustrating to see the last resort in a discussion of facts be: I disregard those facts because of my faith. Why even talk about facts if the last resort is to put faith above all facts that are contrary to your faith?

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Re: Ex-Mormonism is just as crazy as Mormonism!

Post by slavereeno » Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:06 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:51 pm
I've been bothered by the realization that Exmormonism is just as silly and crazy as Mormonism and points out the infantilism the church creates in it's members and former members. I've also realized there are TWO echo chambers and I'm standing directly centered between them both!
undoubtedly, but I need the echo chamber right now. I get pounded with the Momo echo chamber constantly from family and neighbors. And at least this echo chamber is based on some objective truth.

Reuben
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Re: Ex-Mormonism is just as crazy as Mormonism!

Post by Reuben » Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:10 am

Not Buying It wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:13 pm
Second, the Mormon echo chamber is all about people reassuring themselves that they really believe all that ridiculous crap despite how ridiculous it is, while exmormons generally don’t have to reassure themselves. Exmormons aren’t seeking validation, most of them don’t need it.
I think most people at r/exmormon do need validation.

The ones that post and comment seem to be located in the heart of Mormondom or to be entangled in it in some other way. When you're surrounded by people who believe in that magical world, your subconscious mind moves in the direction of believing in it whether you want it to or not. This is especially true if you've spent most of your life believing in it. Disgust kicks in as your conscious mind rebels against the subconscious change, anger as you're reminded about being hurt by believing in the past, doubt as that small part of you that you've been trying to quell grows a little larger, and alienation as you realize yet again that you don't really belong. Humans are biased to adopt the worldviews of the groups they live in. Working against that bias and against the terrible loneliness of silent rejection usually requires another group.

So r/exmormon has posts that testify that the church is false, posts that share experiences demonstrating changes in attitudes, posts that detail the crimes of church leaders, posts that illuminate inconsistencies in doctrine, posts that share bad news about the church, posts that give interpretations of leaders' statements that oppose the prevailing ones in Mormondom, posts that share new insights into Mormon ways, posts that express solidarity, posts that help readers laugh at the absurdity of it all, and posts that cry out into the darkness for someone who will listen and understand. While some of these posts are informative, almost all of them are primarily about validation.

I'm not saying this is bad. I think for a lot of people it's very good. Deprogramming a human brain takes a lot of effort. It's hard to keep the crazy out when you're surrounded by it, still have the seed of it inside your head, and are put under immense pressure to internalize it. Maybe it requires some echo chamber time.

I think you and w2mz are correct to say that the need is usually short-lived, though. Most people seem to graduate from relying on r/exmormon.
Last edited by Reuben on Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ex-Mormonism is just as crazy as Mormonism!

Post by Reuben » Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:20 am

mooseman wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:35 pm
Personally, i think "between two echo chambers" is a good place to be. Hard, but good. It keeps me from going to far to either extreme, understand the talking points, realize when something is being blown way out of proportion and consider things from a different angle. Ultimately, it helps me thing for myself (imho at least).

[...]

Ultimately, if im between 2 bubbles im not in either one and i think thats a good thing.
I'm with you on this. I'll add that most people spend most of their time in one echo chamber or another, so if you want to exit all of them and still maintain your relationships, you'll often end up between them.
Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.

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oliver_denom
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Re: Ex-Mormonism is just as crazy as Mormonism!

Post by oliver_denom » Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:51 am

That reddit sub is just where people land when they're in that particular stage of faith transition. I agree with others here in pointing out that it's temporary, but since there is a constant churn of voices, it creates the illusion of perpetuity. Sometimes being this way helps people reframe their perspectives. Most quickly normal out, but I imagine the insanity of Mormonism in high density populations probably prolongs this for some.

Also, some of those posters on reddit are literally children. It's not uncommon to see teenagers posting about their parents and seminary. It's an interesting mix of age groups that doesn't quite exist on NOM. I believe we are almost all fully grown adults with an average age around 40. That makes a difference. Damn kids these days.
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Re: Ex-Mormonism is just as crazy as Mormonism!

Post by IT_Veteran » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:57 am

I'm active on the sub, just posted a "Don't drink to rebel" thing last night. Was it childish? Probably, but I try to have a sense of humor about all of this. I find varying levels of success. It's an outlet - when I have to hide the fact I have a drink from everyone but my DW and a couple of nevermo friends, it's a way to just be me to the world.

I also have a hard time with some of the posts on the sub. Some stuff they need to just let go or not make a big deal about. I've not been afraid to call those out either.

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Re: Ex-Mormonism is just as crazy as Mormonism!

Post by IT_Veteran » Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:12 am

I just finished reading the thread discussion around tribalism. My (and others) affiliation with the exmormon community, such as on Reddit, makes a lot more sense in that light. I've lost my Mormon tribe. It's hard for me to hear the indoctrination of our kids, specifically the LGBT craziness that goes on before they're even old enough to understand or confront their sexuality. By the time they are old enough to recognize it, they've already been demonized. How do we protect them from that before we know they may be questioning their sexuality?

I don't want to digress too far, that's just why I can't participate in Mormonism anymore and hope that my wife and kids will eventually join me in my apostasy. Since I can't be part of that tribe anymore, the exmormon community is, I think, my first attempt at finding a new tribe. It's less about bragging about drinking one evening, more about finding people that are willing to take an interest in the things I'm doing and connect over them. I start recognizing other people's usernames and following them, having discussions with them, etc without actually knowing who most of them are. As I find a more local tribe, I suspect my need to be part of the subreddit will subside.

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Re: Ex-Mormonism is just as crazy as Mormonism!

Post by Corsair » Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:46 am

I am in complete agreement with Red Ryder on the obsessive nature of a faith transtion. I absolutely do have other interests outside of the church, but it really does not come across in my postings. It's really difficult to break out of the tribalism of Mormonism, ex-Mormonism, or even being a NOM. This transcends the narrow world of LDS belief. Being raised Catholic or even having an affinity for a professional sports team will do the same thing. Tribalism simply a deep part of the human experience.

The cliched accusation by believers is the hackneyed saying "they can leave the church but they can't leave the church alone." Trust me, I would love to leave the church alone and fill my Sundays with further network security, PHP programming, Linux development, blockchain mathematics, Game of Thrones, and random reading of history. Now you know what I wish my life looked like.

We continue to be steeped in the silliness of Mormonism because Mormonism won't leave us alone. I don't want to think about Mormonism, but Mormonz keep asking about my underpants, reading preferences, temple worship, dumb Sunday meetings, and if I spent time bothering some assigned home teaching families in the past month.

I have recently felt drawn to study many aspects of the the life of Jesus of Nazareth. But if I stood up at church and actually talked about what I have learned, ward members and family members would be horrified. My wife would turn inside out in embarassment at my non-correlated heresy.

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Re: Ex-Mormonism is just as crazy as Mormonism!

Post by crossmyheart » Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:08 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:51 pm
Are we NOM's just dumb enough to stand between TWO echo chambers? I think so.
You just summed up my world. I want to move on and graduate from all of this childishness from both sides but I am stuck. I go through phases of inactivity here and at church. Trying to find my own center of the universe. Oh how I wish I could completely move on. Really getting dragged through the mud right now.

Thanks for posting.

I was just thinking about how I missed CWALD's posts on craft beer. Another fine graduate of NOM.

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Re: Ex-Mormonism is just as crazy as Mormonism!

Post by wtfluff » Fri Apr 20, 2018 12:57 pm

Ex-Mormonism Crazy? Cool. 8-)

The thing is, I haven't "fit" in mormonism for many years. No matter how hard I tried to force my square fluffiness into round mormonism, it just didn't work. No matter how many of the check-boxes I checked, over and over, it eventually just felt like I was dying on the inside.

At least with Ex-Mormonism craziness I'm free to be myself (or free to try and figure out who "myself" is outside of mormonism.) I'm free to think for myself. I'm free to try and untangle my brain from over half a lifetime of indoctrination. I'm free to speak my truth. I'm free to question everything. I'm free to change my mind when I find evidence that tells me I should change my mind. I'm free to actually say: I don't know.

I'd love to distance myself from any kind of mormonism, but with my family, and where I reside, I don't know if that will ever be possible. Until that distance actually happens (if ever) I don't have a problem with my Crazy Ex-Mormon/NOM tribe. Perhaps it's an echo-chamber, but that seems to be human nature, no matter what tribe(s) you belong to.

ExMo Reddit? Kind of like all of Reddit: It's like drive-by message boarding. 90% of what happens, happens in in 12-24 hours, and drops off the front-page, into the internet memory hole. It's a great place for me to spew a bit of anger that really doesn't belong on NOM, and again, it's gone in a few hours. Unpopular NOM-pinion: I don't see that Reddit ExMo is any more about validation than any other Reddit sub, or NOM, or any other internet-message-board-type-thingy. Just like humans seem to need a tribe, they also seem to need validation, even if it comes from some weird message-board-type-thingy on the internet. It's a weird, digital world we live in eh?
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Linked
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Re: Ex-Mormonism is just as crazy as Mormonism!

Post by Linked » Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:33 pm

For me the exmormon talking points keep me sane after a lifetime of being hammered by the mormon talking points.

Where else can I go when I look down in my jesus jammies and I feel trapped and controlled and lied to and like my life has been wasted and I just want to rip them off as a middle finger to "the church", but then I look at my wife and know that this is the price of peace.

Or when I hear the song "Still Fighting It" about your new son by Ben Folds where it says "Good morning son, twenty years from now maybe we'll both sit down and have a few beers" and you desperately want to know what that would be like, to welcome your grown son to adulthood with something that shows you aren't owned by "the church", but you sing along substituting "root beer" and you and your wife both know what you are thinking.

I think it makes perfect sense for us to pin ball between them. Having a community who completely understands is so helpful.
Corsair wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:46 am
The cliched accusation by believers is the hackneyed saying "they can leave the church but they can't leave the church alone." Trust me, I would love to leave the church alone and fill my Sundays with further network security, PHP programming, Linux development, blockchain mathematics, Game of Thrones, and random reading of history. Now you know what I wish my life looked like.
It took me a couple years from the time I realized I don't believe in any form of the worldview taught by the LDS church to find the online community of like-minded souls. During those 2 years I toed the line with my actions, but I was mentally out. I spent tons of time diving into my interests and hobbies and it was awesome. Church on Sunday was painful, but I did a pretty good job ignoring it the rest of the week. Once I found NOM I put a lot of that energy into church related reading and posting. At some point I would like to go back to those interests and hobbies over this, but for now I think I need this community, and the exmormon community to heal.

Also, I don't think it's fair to bash too hard on r/exmormon. There are probably more people there that would fit in on NOM than we have on NOM. There's a lot of people at different maturities, ages, anger levels, closeness to divorce, beliefs, etc there. I'm glad it exists and is growing. Here at NOM we are a pretty specific flavor of individuals, and that's great too.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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Red Ryder
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Re: Ex-Mormonism is just as crazy as Mormonism!

Post by Red Ryder » Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:59 pm

Great comments.

To be fair I wasn't specifically or necessarily bagging on exmo reddit. Just the contextual similarities between the church and the anti church. Either side of the coin IS Mormonism.

As agitation with all things mormon/anti mormon creeps into my brain I find the need to graduate increasing. Looks like I need to make an appointment with my guidance counselor or perhaps instantly become catholic.
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

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Re: Ex-Mormonism is just as crazy as Mormonism!

Post by Wonderment » Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:05 pm

The exmormon culture is annoying and childish.
Look at my shoulders!
I got drunk today!
Look at my tattoo!
I'm dropping out of BYU-I!
Look what I can do!
Every Bishop is a pervert!
Kenyan's pay tithing?? No F'ing way!!!!!!
Don't drink to rebel... Drink to (insert reason)!
MormonLeaks? Oh yeah it's Tuesday!!
John Dehlin is THE MAN!
What else has the church F'ed up today?
Burn it the F down!!!
F everyone!!
Exactly. People went from being TBM's to TBXM's. In my opinion, this happens a lot in fundamentalist or conservative churches that are binary -- meaning, there is only one way to believe. Some Catholics mimic the same mindset of TBM's, and some ex-Catholics mimic the same mindset of TBXM's. I probably went through the fanatical "ex' stage at one time in my younger years, but now, it seems very one-dimensional and boring.
Belief systems can be very nuanced and are rarely binary.
When i could not find this new NOM site for about 8 months, I read the reddit site, but there was not much edification there, not much food for thought. To each his own in terms of alcohol/ street drugs, but I got awfully tired of reading drunk-alogs. :lol:
I'm really glad that you guys are here. I appreciate all the intellectual food for thought at NOM.
( And I promise not to send any photos of my shoulders. LOL :lol: ) --Wndr.

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2bizE
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Re: Ex-Mormonism is just as crazy as Mormonism!

Post by 2bizE » Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:12 pm

RubinHighlander wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:30 pm
Red Ryder wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:51 pm
Are we NOM's just dumb enough to stand between TWO echo chambers? I think so.
Yupperz - I just pleaded guilty in my latest thread on tribalism. :shock:
I’m guilty of this as well. I wish I could go back in time and help my ancestors abandon Mormonism.
~2bizE

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Re: Ex-Mormonism is just as crazy as Mormonism!

Post by Thoughtful » Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:00 pm

The thing I love best about Exmormon groups is that everyone has a shared perspective. We can all agree on the facts.

In the church, we cannot because there are the facts, and then the interpretation of the facts, and the apologetics, and the gaslighting, and no one seems to know which end is up, but they are all 100% sure that they are right about it.

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