How feasible is the middle way?

This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
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slavereeno
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How feasible is the middle way?

Post by slavereeno » Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:35 pm

Some friends on this board asked me the other day: "What is it that you want?"

First off, how great is it that my NOM friends would ask, I have never been asked that by the church, ever. They have been telling me what I want since I was born, and I am SICK of it.

I would love to just up and resign.

But... That would cause a ton of stress on my relationships and my family in general, so I tell myself that I need to stay to keep paying the church's social blackmail. My whole effing family up, down and sideways are as TBM as it gets. So, the big problem is that the church has made it really really hard to navigate the middle way.

So if I had my druthers my Mormonism would include:
- I would like to not go to church anymore, or at least not very often
- I would like my kids to not be indoctrinated and have their identities so wrapped up in the church
- I would like to be honest with my kids
- I would like DW to participate, or believe whatever she wants with Mormonism and my belief not affect that
- No Garments
- No Tithing to church
- No calling
- No ministering to/from
- No rescue visits to me
- be able to see all my kids' and some niece/nephew weddings
- loose my obsession with all things Mormon in either direction.

My problem is that some of those are probably mutually exclusive.

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IT_Veteran
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Re: How feasible is the middle way?

Post by IT_Veteran » Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:46 pm

First, I understand where you're coming from on this. I've been very lucky with my DW, but the fears and the anxiety were still very recent and very real. We're still figuring out as we go, and she seems to really be struggling with what happens after Mormonism, if she were to decide to leave it. It's her community and her tribe, she grew up in the heart of the Salt Lake valley, and her family is all very TBM. So is about half of mine.

Many of these are really dependent on your DW's acceptance of your faith crisis/transition. I hope you and she get to a point where you can discuss it openly and without it being threatening for either one of you. Once that happens, a lot of that other stuff tends to follow pretty closely, but it can't often precede that understanding.

As for wedding attendance, I understand that very well. I had to concede that I'll likely miss a lot of those kinds of events for family. Luckily for me, the only nieces/nephews have exmo/nevermo parents so are unlikely to get married somewhere I can't be. Future nieces/nephews may be a different story as my wife's siblings start to get married. It's tragic that we have to even consider that.

dogbite
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Re: How feasible is the middle way?

Post by dogbite » Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:49 pm

It's usually a temporary spot of 6 to 18 months while you and your life figure things out together.

It's no long-term solution for most.

Thoughtful
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Re: How feasible is the middle way?

Post by Thoughtful » Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:31 pm

slavereeno wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:35 pm
Some friends on this board asked me the other day: "What is it that you want?"

First off, how great is it that my NOM friends would ask, I have never been asked that by the church, ever. They have been telling me what I want since I was born, and I am SICK of it.

I would love to just up and resign.

But... That would cause a ton of stress on my relationships and my family in general, so I tell myself that I need to stay to keep paying the church's social blackmail. My whole effing family up, down and sideways are as TBM as it gets. So, the big problem is that the church has made it really really hard to navigate the middle way.

So if I had my druthers my Mormonism would include:
- I would like to not go to church anymore, or at least not very often
- I would like my kids to not be indoctrinated and have their identities so wrapped up in the church
- I would like to be honest with my kids
- I would like DW to participate, or believe whatever she wants with Mormonism and my belief not affect that
- No Garments
- No Tithing to church
- No calling
- No ministering to/from
- No rescue visits to me
- be able to see all my kids' and some niece/nephew weddings
- loose my obsession with all things Mormon in either direction.

My problem is that some of those are probably mutually exclusive.
This is what I want too. I would add, every single extended family conversation not awkward am's/or triggering. They don't have anything else to talk about.

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slavereeno
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Re: How feasible is the middle way?

Post by slavereeno » Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:04 pm

IT_Veteran wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:46 pm
Many of these are really dependent on your DW's acceptance of your faith crisis/transition.
True, and we are still working that one out, if its a private thing its much easier to accept, the public ones cause a lot of stress for her.
dogbite wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:49 pm
It's no long-term solution for most.
This is what I am afraid of. How long can I keep this up.

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Red Ryder
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Re: How feasible is the middle way?

Post by Red Ryder » Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:56 pm

I've deleted my response three times now.

The first was a rant that wasn't productive.

The second was telling you to stop being a passive people pleasing pansy and draw boundaries for yourself. Rip the band-aid off.

The third was a nice and gentle suggestion of ways to delicately remove yourself one layer at a time.

The reality is there are no good ways. Somebody gets hurt. Whether it's your mother, your wife, your children, or your neighbors, somebody gets hurt. The emotional cost is high. So either you suffer and take the hit and try to stay in and pretend or you share the trauma with everyone and everyone suffers until acceptance is given.

You just have to decide what's the best way forward for you and your family. There's going to be collateral damage.

The only other option is to put more pressure on the wife's shelf and see if you can load it up and leave together.

Buy her a copy of Todd Compton's book In Sacred Loneliness. Have her read that with you.
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alas
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Re: How feasible is the middle way?

Post by alas » Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:29 pm

Middle way was sustainable for me for about 30 years. But then about ten years ago, things changed and the church took a harder stand against doubters. They made the tent smaller and rather than just being a feminist who was not trusted, I got more on the outside. When I quit, I didn't lose any community because I had been a misfit for years already.

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slavereeno
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Re: How feasible is the middle way?

Post by slavereeno » Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:09 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:56 pm
The first was a rant that wasn't productive.
Though it probably would have made me laugh.
Red Ryder wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:56 pm
The second was telling you to stop being a passive people pleasing pansy and draw boundaries for yourself. Rip the band-aid off.
The truth hurts, at least you know I wouldn't fight back. :lol:
Red Ryder wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:56 pm
The third was a nice and gentle suggestion of ways to delicately remove yourself one layer at a time.
Sigh.
Red Ryder wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:56 pm
You just have to decide what's the best way forward for you and your family. There's going to be collateral damage.
Yes, I guess I just need to accept that there will be sacrifices, and some of those sacrifices will be thrust on DW outside of her control. :(

DW's mother is dying right now, so I am trying to give her space to deal with that and not be throwing her curve balls with her religion. The more I back off the more anxious I get about re-entrenchment.

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slavereeno
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Re: How feasible is the middle way?

Post by slavereeno » Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:11 pm

alas wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:29 pm
Middle way was sustainable for me for about 30 years. But then about ten years ago, things changed and the church took a harder stand against doubters. They made the tent smaller and rather than just being a feminist who was not trusted, I got more on the outside. When I quit, I didn't lose any community because I had been a misfit for years already.
That's a long time. :shock:
I remember the fence sitter talks a few years back, in my shelf laden TBM days, and as I recall they bugged the hell out me even then.

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nibbler
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Re: How feasible is the middle way?

Post by nibbler » Tue May 01, 2018 5:33 am

It depends on how you define the middle way. ;)

Everyone's experience is different because everyone is different but I've found that to make the middle way work you have to find ways to ignore the judgment of others and find ways to be comfortable in a community that keeps you at arm's distance.

I'll divide your list into two groups.

Things you have some control over:
slavereeno wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:35 pm
- I would like to not go to church anymore, or at least not very often
- I would like to be honest with my kids
- No Garments
- No Tithing to church
- No calling
- No ministering to/from
- No rescue visits to me
You just have to accept the consequences the culture/family will impose upon you. You can decide to do those things but from my personal experience with dropping the calling and opting out of (then) home teaching I've found that I was on the outside of the community looking in. It was some of the culture cutting me out and some of me cutting the culture out. Combine the two and it was like being alone in a crowd, invisible.

You can do it and make the middle way work but it depends on how you define the middle way.

Some things you have little to no control over:
slavereeno wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:35 pm
- I would like my kids to not be indoctrinated and have their identities so wrapped up in the church
I joined the church in college. I'm sure my parents fully believed that I was being indoctrinated and I can tell you, I wrapped my identity up in the church 100%. But my decision, my path. I fought against my parents for the decisions I made to join. No regrets. It was my path, the church was what I needed back then. Now, not so much. That's a part of it though, giving our kids room to grow, which includes making massive mistakes, and there are worse mistakes than being an orthodox believer in the LDS church.
slavereeno wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:35 pm
- I would like DW to participate, or believe whatever she wants with Mormonism and my belief not affect that
That's a toughie. No one exists in a vacuum.
slavereeno wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:35 pm
- be able to see all my kids' and some niece/nephew weddings
It depends on how you feel about holding on to a temple recommend. If you don't pay tithing it can be tough to justify. That may be something that is sacrificed at the altar.

From a convert's perspective - none of my family was present for my sealing and I didn't think lesser of them for it. Some family waited outside but none for the actual ceremony. We all got together for the reception though. It's a little different because I was on the inside and there was no expectation for my family to be there, they weren't even members.

I 100% get the desire to see family get married but I wonder how much fear of judgment creeps into our thoughts. Some family can attend, other family isn't "worthy" enough to attend. Are we embarrassed by being the guy/gal waiting outside for the event to be over?

In the mission field ring ceremonies are common. Probably not in the MorCor? Hopefully the couples do something to appease people that didn't get to see any pomp on the big day.

Go to their receptions. Have fun.
slavereeno wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:35 pm
- loose my obsession with all things Mormon in either direction.
My experience was that it was a candle that just had to burn out. I couldn't lose the obsession, I was reading stuff several hours a day for a long time, like years, all along hoping for the day I'd stop caring. Then the day came, enough was enough, I stopped reading all this stuff, and forgot most of what I had read. I didn't will myself there, nature had to take its course.

Don't try to force a middle way. It works or it doesn't. I try not to even define a middle way. I try to take a page from Buddhism and Hinduism, nothing lasts, everything is in constant state of change. Whatever middle way I define wouldn't last. If your goal is to stay in the middle way your definition of middle way has to be malleable. Even then, "staying in the middle way" is something that doesn't last.

Good luck.
We don’t see things as they are, we see them as we are.
– Anais Nin

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Mormorrisey
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Re: How feasible is the middle way?

Post by Mormorrisey » Tue May 01, 2018 6:03 am

alas wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:29 pm
Middle way was sustainable for me for about 30 years. But then about ten years ago, things changed and the church took a harder stand against doubters. They made the tent smaller and rather than just being a feminist who was not trusted, I got more on the outside. When I quit, I didn't lose any community because I had been a misfit for years already.
That's the way things are headed for me too - as a feminist, "liberal," LGBT ally, etc. etc. The middle way works fine for me, but it seems VERY problematic with a small tent Mormonism that is hell bent on a literal translation of Mormon dogma. While I can handle being more and more on the outside, it seems the top brass are intent on either bringing you on board, or ensuring you are left behind/kicked out/snubbed. Again, fine with me, but the people around me are buying in, and don't seem to know what to do with me. Some are trying to figure it out (luckily they include spouse and kids), some are calling me to repentance, and others just ignore me. As long as they don't try and kick me out for how I am, which will be difficult for my familial relationships, church and I will just have a wary co-existence. That's fine with me. Like this kind of fine.
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Re: How feasible is the middle way?

Post by oliver_denom » Tue May 01, 2018 6:34 am

The middle way works if you have a community who will accept this, like a type of reform Judaism where what's important is belonging to the tribe, not any particular belief or practice. But the more fundamentalist your community, the harder it will be to make this work because they are unable to recognize the difference between the middle way and anti-mormonism. Actually, they would be more likely to love and respect an anti-mormon than someone in the middle because it's the only other role you could play that makes sense to their world view.

For example, we've been quietly living the middle way for a number of years. Our beliefs are in no way compatible with Mormonism, but we pay a certain amount of lip service to the culture and continue to involve ourselves in family events. But that boundary is being constantly tested and pushed. Just last week my MIL told my wife that her only wish for her 50th wedding anniversary was to have all her children with her in an endowment session. If this were any other religion, then this wouldn't be a big deal. Of course we'd go to church with her or whatever, why wouldn't we? But with a year's notice, what she's really asking is that we return to church, pay 10% of our income in tithing, alter our beliefs about God, Jesus, the restoration, prophet and apostles, start wearing garments again, and take up callings. That's not a gift request. I plan to ask whether she'd take an Alaskan cruise instead.

To really make the middle way possible we'd need a schism, a real reformation and separation from the orthodoxy, because in their minds we aren't allowed to exist. The Community of Christ seems like a possible option, but I'd suggest that they aren't as open as you might think. I'd be looking at something closer to a community of humanists like the Universalist Unitarians, but with a specifically Mormon focus. We may get this eventually, but I think we'd need to wait another generation to gather enough interest.
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IT_Veteran
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Re: How feasible is the middle way?

Post by IT_Veteran » Tue May 01, 2018 8:14 am

slavereeno wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:04 pm
IT_Veteran wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:46 pm
Many of these are really dependent on your DW's acceptance of your faith crisis/transition.
True, and we are still working that one out, if its a private thing its much easier to accept, the public ones cause a lot of stress for her.
How aware is she of your disaffection with the church? If she's willing to accept the private things, maybe you guys could discuss the garments? If you're willing to attend church for a while longer, maybe the compromise is that the church doesn't get to choose your underwear anymore? I had switched to the crew neck garments years ago, so switching to regular undershirts really wasn't noticeable to anyone but my wife.

She needs some love and understanding that this doesn't mean you're going to leave her or that your feelings for her have changed in any way.

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moksha
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Re: How feasible is the middle way?

Post by moksha » Tue May 01, 2018 8:36 am

The term middle way always seems confusing. What exactly does it mean anyway?

Here are three possibilities off the top of my head and they all correspond to comparing religion with a suit of clothes.

1. Off the rack. You wear what is provided and no alterations are available. Obey the clerk.

2. Tailor-made. You select the material, the weave, and have it fitted to your particular frame.

3. Nude. You find clothing to be an artificial covering and prefer to dispense with it altogether.

In this scenario, I find myself wanting tailor-made.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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alas
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Re: How feasible is the middle way?

Post by alas » Tue May 01, 2018 9:33 am

The "middle way" you are talking about sounds to me more like it is really "out" with your wife and family intact, and allow the wife to stay Mormon if she wants, but not the kids. Reading through your list, I did none of those things much of the time. Well, I went from active garment wearing to inactive not wearing several times, but mostly I was active and my children were raised Mormon and I was a closeted nonbeliever, but open feminist.

Now, the thing I did with my children was to teach them critical thinking skills. (And feminism) (and anti racism and anti homophobia) Two of the three of my kids are out. I mean dropped out as soon as they turned 18. You can teach critical thinking without you wife ever knowing you are teaching the kiddos to not accept the church hook line and sinker. But while watching TV, point out the manipulation in the advertisements. Then trust them that they will see the manipulation in the church. Teach them the basics of psychology as far as cognitive dissonance, selection bias, self worth, guilt and shame. You can do this all by discussing TV commercials. Some commercials use shame to sell you stuff, white teeth anybody, compared to a Kleenex? Nobody's teeth are naturally that white. So, they take normal and shame it. Gasp, look how yellow her teeth are! Body odor, any odor, normal is never good enough. Sound kind of like the church to you? Other ads appeal to your desires. So does the church. Do you want Net blessings or gross blessings. Talk about encouraging greed.ads appeal to your fears. Insurance ads, they use the fear of death or injury to sell you something that does not prevent the death or injury, but just gives you some money. So does the church. Think how often the church uses the fear of losing your family. Repeating something over and over till you stop thinking about it because the claim becomes drilled into your head fact. Once you teach your children to look for these manipulations, they will see them in the church too. If it really had the truth, it would not have to try so hard to manipulate people?

So, this is just a suggestion on compromise. You can ask to be as out of the church as you are comfortable and in return, you promise not to teach the children anti Mormon stuff. But reserve the right to be open with them if they ask why you do not believe. Just say you refuse to lie to them. Then you are out, your wife is in, and you teach your children how to think to avoid manipulation. And she won't even know that you are teaching them to question the church, because you are not. You are teaching them to see through manipulation.

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GoodBoy
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Re: How feasible is the middle way?

Post by GoodBoy » Tue May 01, 2018 11:20 am

Based on my informal survey of others, the middle way is only long-term sustainable for a very select few. So, it's not impossible, just improbable. In the meantime, just do what makes sense to you and/or makes you happy.

When I first lost my faith over 6 years ago, I said that I would never resign because it would hurt too many people and was pointless and didn't mean anything anyway. Plus, I would be safe just in case it was actually true. However, a couple months ago, I resigned. I did it for me, as a ceremony like a wedding, graduation, or a maybe more appropriately, like a funeral. It allowed me to grieve and mentally move on. It also creates some official distance between me and the church. My best friends are both the bishops of the local wards. Because of my resignation they are officially not obligated to try to save me. They can continue to be my friend based on true friendship, or they are relieved of their obligations to me. It also makes a statement that I am confident in my conclusions and that I am not leaving because I'm lazy, weak, or want to sin.
Always been the good kid, but I wanted to know more, and to find and test truth.

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2bizE
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Re: How feasible is the middle way?

Post by 2bizE » Tue May 01, 2018 11:36 am

I used to be more optimistic of a middle way. I hoped there was one. I’m finding that over the last 3 -4 years of my faith transition the middle ground is fading away. Mostly because the more truth I learn, the harder it is to go to church and listen to the lies.
I so want to have a middle way, but it is dissolving.
~2bizE

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azflyer
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Re: How feasible is the middle way?

Post by azflyer » Wed May 02, 2018 5:11 pm

I've been doing what I consider the middle way, in one version or another, for years. Over time I've drifted further and further from being TBM. I'm sure most people that see me at church think I'm just a 'normal' Mormon, like everyone else. I've had the chance to have a few more detailed / intimate conversations with people regarding some of my thoughts on different topics, and when those situations come up, it feels really good.

In terms of how I live the 'middle way'...

- I go to church when i want to. That works out to about 50 - 75% of the time. I sing in the choir, and love it.
- I tell my kids exactly how I feel about the church. I've told my older children very directly that I don't believe in the historicity of the BOM.
- My wife is even less active than me. She'd probably tell you that I still cling to the church. I like to believe that I participate at the level I'm comfortable with.
- I wear garments when I want to. I don't wear them when I don't want to. On average, I wear garments about 5 days a week. I never sleep with my garment top on.
- I pay a token amount of tithing. I feel compelled to do this since I participate in activities and use the building. I decide what tithing means, I don't let anyone define that for me. I pay tithing directly and anonymously to church headquarters. My bishop, nor anyone in my stake, knows how much I pay.
- I have a BSA calling. I am very fond of BSA and really enjoy working with boys on their rank advancements. I'll be pretty upset if the church completely divorces itself from the BSA.
- I'm weird, I've actually always enjoyed Home Teaching. I'm very excited about the new ministering program.

Is this a 'middle way'? It feels like a 'middle way' to me. It might not for you. I still have a TR. My wife does not. That sure has the capability of causing some huge problems for us in the future.

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slavereeno
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Re: How feasible is the middle way?

Post by slavereeno » Wed May 02, 2018 6:20 pm

Thanks to all for these responses!

I just spent a couple of days in the hospital :( so I won't have time to respond to everything, but I did read each of them and I love the different perspectives provided.

It seems my middle way will be a progressive edge towards out. DW would like me to tell each of our kids of my position in the church when the time is right. I am not quite sure what that time will be, but at least the door is open a little. The other issues will have to cross each bridge when the timing is right I suppose.

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IT_Veteran
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Re: How feasible is the middle way?

Post by IT_Veteran » Wed May 02, 2018 7:40 pm

slavereeno wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 6:20 pm
Thanks to all for these responses!

I just spent a couple of days in the hospital :( so I won't have time to respond to everything, but I did read each of them and I love the different perspectives provided.

It seems my middle way will be a progressive edge towards out. DW would like me to tell each of our kids of my position in the church when the time is right. I am not quite sure what that time will be, but at least the door is open a little. The other issues will have to cross each bridge when the timing is right I suppose.
Man, hope everything is okay. Glad there seems to be at least some level of understanding from your DW though.

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