"It gives me hope..."

[TestimonyLost]

A little while ago, I asked my wife why she was okay with my lying on the first few temple recommend questions (the testimony ones). After some hemming and hawing, she said, "It gives me hope." I asked, "Hope in what?" But she didn't really have a response.

I've made it abundantly clear that I don't believe any of it anymore. I think she understands that. However, by most outward appearances, I remain fully engaged in the church. The hope comment makes me wonder if I'm doing more harm than good by staying fully engaged. Does she look at my temple recommend and calling and full tithing and everything else as some sign that deep down I "know the truth"? By recommitting months ago to stay engaged with church for now, have I delayed her processing my total lack of belief?

Also, she's not aware of it but I drink coffee (a LOT of coffee). I wonder if she knew would she be okay that I lie on that recommend question? I'm almost certain her answer would be no but I can't really identify why. Why is it okay to have no testimony at all and lie on three or four questions but lying on the WoW question would be a problem? Is it evidence of the stereotype I've heard expressed before that orthopraxy always trumps orthodoxy in the church?

These are mostly rhetorical questions but I always appreciate the thoughts of everyone here.

[alas]

To answer one question at a time, in no particular order. Yes, orthopraxy trumps orthodoxy. Mormons would much rather that you lie about how you think, cause no one else can see or smell it, than lie about something that might look bad if someone sees you. Yes, you are prolonging your wife's processing the whole disbelief thing. Mormons promise each other that once someone thinks it is true, they will never change how the feel deep inside. So, yes, she probably thinks that deep inside you still believe and this is a rebellious stage you are going through and eventually you will come around. And you didn't ask this question but I am going to answer it anyhow. Tell your wife you are going to start drinking coffee, then just keep doing, just don't hide it so good. Others on the board have had the sad experience of their spouse finding out some other way, then there is heck to pay, cause you are not only a horrible sinner to drink the devil juice, but you lied to her. And, then you are in twice the trouble of telling her in the first place. And, she doesn't REALLY think you are lying to the bishop, because remember, she thinks deep inside you DO still believe, so therefore, you are not really lying to the bishop.

So, if you really want to convince her that you are not going to regain your testimony, tell her you are going to start drinking coffee because you do not think it is a sin and the scientists are saying the stuff is good for you. And that you have every intention of lying to the bishop about that too. Then six months later tell her are going to stop paying tithing in any way the church can see, and get one of those on line payment things where your bishop gets no notification you paid. Tell her that is in preparation for when you stop paying and start lying about tithing too. About that time, you should have her broken hearted about your apostasy.

Or you could decide it is time to be straight with everyone and exit.

One positive thought, if you stop pretending so you can baptise your kids, and tell them you do not believe and give them permission to question the church, maybe they will look more honestly at it and you won't have as many of them getting a temple marriage.

One other thought as the child of unbelieving parents who pretended to believe, I sure wish they had been honest with us kids about them not believing it all.

[MerrieMiss]

To answer one question at a time, in no particular order. Yes, orthopraxy trumps orthodoxy. Mormons would much rather that you lie about how you think, cause no one else can see or smell it, than lie about something that might look bad if someone sees you.... Mormons promise each other that once someone thinks it is true, they will never change how the feel deep inside. So, yes, she probably thinks that deep inside you still believe and this is a rebellious stage you are going through and eventually you will come around... And, she doesn't REALLY think you are lying to the bishop, because remember, she thinks deep inside you DO still believe, so therefore, you are not really lying to the bishop.

Yep. More important that you follow the rules than actually believe it and TBMs really do believe that you can't change your mind.So you're right: the TR questions about beliefs are okay to lie about, but the WoW isn't. I think you'd get the same response from leadership. A bishop will let you be nuanced or allow a lot of wiggle room or say let's just let this go because you're struggling right now when it comes to questions of belief. I very much doubt you'd get that much leeway if you told him you had an occasional cup of coffee or forgot to pay tithing once or didn't wear your garment top when mowing the lawn in the summer.

[FreeFallin]

I think that your wife may also have hope that if you are inside the temple, the holy Spirit can work on you, and you will have that spiritual experience that the LDS narrative promises. Then your eyes will be opened to the truth and you will be fully converted. Magic.

[Not Buying It]

Hope can be cruel. The believing family member who holds out hope for the return of the unbeliever sometimes torments themselves needlessly for years. Unfortunately, the Church perpetuates that with its "no empty chairs at the table" rhetoric, so the believer often goes on hoping...

[GoodBoy]

My thoughts: The Mormon church is likely your wife's entire world. She is primarily concerned about her own status and feeling of security within that community. That is much more important to her than the morality of telling a lie. And I actually agree with her. Especially telling a lie that can't ever hurt anyone and can only make people a little happier and healthier.

[wtfluff]

Does she look at my temple recommend and calling and full tithing and everything else as some sign that deep down I "know the truth"?

I think that believers always hold out this sort of hope for non-believers.

I hear apostate-types say the same type of thing a lot: "Deep down inside, TBM's know that it's all made up!"

I wonder if there's some middle ground somewhere? Likely not when dealing with mormonism.

[TestimonyLost]

Thank you all for your thoughtful responses. I know my thoughts and questions offered nothing new that we haven't discussed over and over but it helps to know that someone out there hears me and understands what I'm going through.

Or you could decide it is time to be straight with everyone and exit.

One positive thought, if you stop pretending so you can baptise your kids, and tell them you do not believe and give them permission to question the church, maybe they will look more honestly at it and you won't have as many of them getting a temple marriage.

One other thought as the child of unbelieving parents who pretended to believe, I sure wish they had been honest with us kids about them not believing it all.

Really appreciated all of your advice, alas.

Oh how I dream of just being honest about it all. I think often of the potential influence (good and bad) on my kids if I left. However, one of my nightmare scenarios is in my extended family. BIL left the church a couple years ago and his wife nearly left him (to be fair, there were other issues) and his kids kind of hate him. No one else in his family left the church and, by all outward appearances, all of them are less happy.

Also, I've got one real life friend who doesn't believe anymore but he tells me every time we talk that staying in the church to keep the peace will forever be the right choice. It keeps me hung up on the cons of leaving.

Yep. More important that you follow the rules than actually believe it...

I know you're right but it's so infantile. So kindergarten. Gah.

I think that believers always hold out this sort of hope for non-believers.

I hear apostate-types say the same type of thing a lot: "Deep down inside, TBM's know that it's all made up!"

I wonder if there's some middle ground somewhere? Likely not when dealing with mormonism.

Oh man, this is so true. Watching people who are fully invested in the church leave and almost immediately wonder why anyone can stay in the church is one of the most aggravating tropes in the exmo subreddit. I feel like this community does a much better job of remembering where we all once were.