There's no good time to make a break

This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
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TestimonyLost
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There's no good time to make a break

Post by TestimonyLost » Tue May 08, 2018 7:52 am

Yeah, it's a second thread from me. I had two streams of thought and needed some support from you folks so here I am.

A lot of threads here and on the exmo subreddit talk about timing the break. I began my faith journey 9 years ago and finally admitted to myself that I no longer had any belief in the church about four years ago. Since then, I've just been faking it hoping for a moment that never seems to come. I feel like I've been staring at the double dutch jump ropes go round and round for an eternity and I just can't seem to make the leap. It wears on me.

Yesterday, I decided to make a spreadsheet. This isn't uncommon. Weirdo that I am, I like to do it. The purpose of this one was to lay out all the church milestones in my kids' lives and figure out when they all fell relative to one another. I have a lot of children so unsurprisingly, there is no lengthy break between them. It's a blessing and baptisms right up to the years when my oldest kids start approaching marrying age (in Mormondom, of course, not among normal people).

I knew this would be the result but it was tough to see it laid out. Where in there do I start to look into my kid's eyes and tell them daddy won't be baptizing them? I've already baptized some of my children so how do I just stop doing that for them? But I'm looking at eight more years of fakery to baptize them all and that sounds like. For. Ev. Er. (Squints style.)

Then, of course, my kids start marrying off. How do I tell them I won't come to their wedding? I will have faked it for over a decade, what's another 15 years? And somewhere in that time, I'll have grandkids start their church moments. I can find reasons to keep up the ruse until I'm cold in my grave.

I worry that I could just stick in this rut because I'm at the point where church stuff doesn't hit me like it once did. For some years there, as I learned one thing after another, I felt like I met a new shelf breaker constantly. Now it's kind of this moderately painful buzzing in the back of my brain but it's been so long that I've learned to live with it (not happily a lot of the time, but not miserable all the time either).

I know there's no "correct" answer here. Everyone's got to figure it out for themselves. But I'm having a hard time figuring it out and I'm tired of being stuck.

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Red Ryder
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Re: There's no good time to make a break

Post by Red Ryder » Tue May 08, 2018 10:05 am

I love spreadsheets! :lol:

What if you accept it for what is?

Consider yourself a "catholic" mormon where you basically assume the cultural identity even though you don't fully believe. Most Catholics don't believe but don't give up their identity.

Sundays can simply become the day you go and hang out with the tribe in the town square for 3 hours. Then you're done for the week.

I think it's possible to just not give a $&@k and still sit by your wife and family each week. I think participating in internet Mormonism pushes us to think we have to transition out because that's the momentum everyone on the disaffected side goes through. Maybe we don't.

Can't we just be a dried out dead grape on the vine in the Lord's vineyard?
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Not Buying It
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Re: There's no good time to make a break

Post by Not Buying It » Tue May 08, 2018 10:08 am

You are right, there is no "correct" answer. Much depends on your spouse, and how accepting he or she is, and how willing to tolerate disengagement from the Church. Myself, I've been in a similar place, I've been playing along for a long time now, attending meetings, holding callings, but doing the bare minimum I can get away with.

But you've waited a long time. At some point you either make your own opportunities to disengage or you wait for an opportunity that may never come. Couple suggestions: What opportunities do you have to disengage even just a little? Maybe resign from callings, start missing one hour of Church, start saying no to requests, maybe decline to "minister"? In my book, when you disengage you are not obligated to tell anyone the reason - make up reasons that won't raise red flags if you need to, you don't owe anyone true explanations, if a little white lie gets you a little farther out without raising suspicions on the part of people whose business it isn't anyway, I think that is A-OK. What baby steps can you take to disengage even a little bit?

Are you in a position to subtly let your children know all is not right in the Church? Respecting a spouse's wishes to raise children in the Church is important, but a parent who knows there are problems and doesn't find ways to let their children know are in some sense negligent. Don't let your kid be the one who wouldn't have given the Church two years of his life on a mission if he'd known the things his father knew but didn't tell him. You don't have to tell them everything at once - there are ways of letting out a little at a time without blowing their minds.

You are in a hard spot, no two ways about it. But at some point you have to determine which is harder - just going along and pretending and watching your kids get taken advantage of by a Church that seeks to keep them ignorant and easy to manipulate, or taking baby steps toward changing the status quo.
Can't we just be a dried out dead grape on the vine in the Lord's vineyard?
Sure - but you do have to think about what the Church will do to your kids if you let it indoctrinate them unchecked.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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Linked
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Re: There's no good time to make a break

Post by Linked » Tue May 08, 2018 1:02 pm

This post really resonates.

There is no good time. When things are bad you don't want to overload, and when things are good you don't want to rock the boat. You don't want screw up the upcoming baptism or baby blessing or temple trip or etc.

The only time I make any changes are when I am just so overwhelmed it gets unhealthy. Very reactive and probably a bad long term plan.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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IT_Veteran
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Re: There's no good time to make a break

Post by IT_Veteran » Tue May 08, 2018 1:43 pm

I wrote my wife an email just before Christmas, but didn't send it. Then we went through the holidays, a couple of birthdays, etc. Had an anniversary coming up, 17 yo son didn't think he was going on a mission, but it weighed on me how I would navigate not standing in the circle to set him apart. Littlest will be baptized in five years. Throw in all the marriages, and other ordinances, priesthood blessings (which I had already stopped giving because I didn't believe), and it's really hard to see a way out. I ended up sending my email to her on Valentine's Day. 0/10 - do not recommend, I didn't even realize it until much later in the day.

There may never be a good time to make the break, not really. All of that stuff will weigh on you. I just reached a point where I recognized there was never a good time and I could either do it anyway, when the timing wasn't right, or not at all.

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GoodBoy
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Re: There's no good time to make a break

Post by GoodBoy » Tue May 08, 2018 1:46 pm

Yes. There is no good time. I also have young kids and I will also be missing baptisms, weddings, and baby blessings in my future. But for me, an hour or two of embarrassment is not worth hundreds of hours of me going crazy in church meetings every year and 10% of my income. People will judge me unfairly. I'm at peace with that. I won't judge them for doing so. They can't understand without me breaking their own lives. I will have lunch ready when they come home from church, and will watch the children when my daughters go into the temple to be married. And I will enjoy sleeping in on Sundays and otherwise doing things that make me happy.

One thing that all NOMs need to do is to start the work of finding non-Mormon friends, or at least friends where you do non-church things together. You will have to go be the awkward newbie for a while, but if you don't, you will never be able to leave without a lot of hurt and anger at the loss of your only tribe or community. Try https://www.meetup.com/ and http://www.mormonspectrum.org/ for starters.
Always been the good kid, but I wanted to know more, and to find and test truth.

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Kalikala
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Re: There's no good time to make a break

Post by Kalikala » Tue May 08, 2018 2:03 pm

IT_Veteran wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 1:43 pm

I ended up sending my email to her on Valentine's Day. 0/10 - do not recommend, I didn't even realize it until much later in the day.
To be fair, you actually sent it the day before. I just didn’t see it until Valentine’s Day.
"The opposite of Faith is not Doubt, it's Certainty." ~ Anne Lamott

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alas
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Re: There's no good time to make a break

Post by alas » Tue May 08, 2018 3:22 pm

There is no good time to make the break, and no good way to make the announcement, that being said, you just do it when you can no longer keep your sanity while pretending that it's all true. And you kind of know when that tipping point comes, because suddenly all those people who are going to look down on you for not believing are just no longer important. Even if those people are children, inlaws, and family.

But I guess, while there is no good time, there are worse times. I think I told DH I. Was. Never. Going. Back. Between my mother's death and the funeral. She had been living with us, and I was the primary caregiver as she went down hill. I still have not figured out why that was my timing, but I just reached the point that even to save my marriage, I just couldn't keep up the charade. So, we are dealing with informing family and planning the funeral, and I drop that on him. But maybe it was realizing that life is short and fragile, and living a lie just is not worth the cost.

Anon70
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Re: There's no good time to make a break

Post by Anon70 » Tue May 08, 2018 3:36 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 10:05 am
I love spreadsheets! :lol:

What if you accept it for what is?

Consider yourself a "catholic" mormon where you basically assume the cultural identity even though you don't fully believe. Most Catholics don't believe but don't give up their identity.

Sundays can simply become the day you go and hang out with the tribe in the town square for 3 hours. Then you're done for the week.

I think it's possible to just not give a $&@k and still sit by your wife and family each week. I think participating in internet Mormonism pushes us to think we have to transition out because that's the momentum everyone on the disaffected side goes through. Maybe we don't.

Can't we just be a dried out dead grape on the vine in the Lord's vineyard?
I 've been trying to do this for 4 years. It gets harder every year for me - I can't stand the group-think, the persecution complex, the superiority complex, etc. Plus, it's sooooo boring and so fake once you see through it all. So, I don't know, I think I'm like Testimony Lost--I can see me being stuck here for years and it's becoming really untenable.

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wtfluff
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Re: There's no good time to make a break

Post by wtfluff » Tue May 08, 2018 3:54 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 10:05 am
Consider yourself a "catholic" mormon where you basically assume the cultural identity even though you don't fully believe. Most Catholics don't believe but don't give up their identity.
Catholic Mormon. Yeah, I'll be plagiarizing that Red. Thank you very much.

[/threadjack]
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Reuben
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Re: There's no good time to make a break

Post by Reuben » Tue May 08, 2018 4:21 pm

Learn to doubt the stories you tell about yourselves and your adversaries.

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Perfigliano
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Re: There's no good time to make a break

Post by Perfigliano » Tue May 08, 2018 7:22 pm

Actually, there is, but that time is when you're single and have no friends. The rest of the time you have to make the opportunity because they don't usually appear magically.

Even in my current situation, there are other events that go on- weddings, baptisms, mission calls, weddings, farewells, homecomings, weddings... you know. Any time you pick will always be awkwardly sandwiched between two big events of someone else's life. It's still hard to come out of the exmo closet to the people you love. It shatters their world. It's loads easier coming out to nevermos and total strangers - I know from experience.
Integrity is more important than loyalty.

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glass shelf
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Re: There's no good time to make a break

Post by glass shelf » Tue May 08, 2018 7:48 pm

You know that saying about trees? The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is today. That's how I feel about leaving Mormonism.

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slavereeno
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Re: There's no good time to make a break

Post by slavereeno » Tue May 08, 2018 9:21 pm

TestimonyLost wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 7:48 am
By recommitting months ago to stay engaged with church for now, have I delayed her processing my total lack of belief?
This is sounding very familiar, my DW is not entirely TBM at this point (I think) but her preference would be to just keep up the appearance that we are TBM. Its unsettling to her when I start edging towards the door, plenty of anxiety there. My FAIR TBM friend is convinced he is going to re-convert me any day now, so he encourages me to just play along for a while.

There seems to be a lot of threads going around about slow versus fast exit strategies. As DW and I discussed we determined that the benefit of fast is that the unpleasantness of coming out about disbelief does not continue to loom overhead like a dark shadow. The benefit of slow is perhaps the delay can have me see my kids' weddings and allow others to adjust without ruining relationships.

I dunno, we have gone back and forth. It causes a lot of stress either way it seems.

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Jeffret
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Re: There's no good time to make a break

Post by Jeffret » Tue May 08, 2018 10:12 pm

I don't know. I think the time I left turned out to be a really good time to do it. My wife was to a point where she was ready to accept and support it. She and the kids kept attending for nearly a year and then she had enough. The kids were just happy to not have to go anymore. We just kind of slipped out before most people knew what was going on. My wife was getting to the point of developing outside interests and friendships. We were able to start one son in a non- mormon troop and the other in a non- mormon pack. Some of our extended family didn't know what had long time. Nobody bothered us.
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TestimonyLost
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Re: There's no good time to make a break

Post by TestimonyLost » Thu May 10, 2018 7:05 am

Thank you all for taking the time to respond. You’re all right of course, there isn’t a good time. But I can still vainly wish that more of you argued with my post title. :lol:
Red Ryder wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 10:05 am
I love spreadsheets! :lol:

What if you accept it for what is?

Consider yourself a "catholic" mormon…

Can't we just be a dried out dead grape on the vine in the Lord's vineyard?
A fellow spreadsheet nerd!

The idea sounds nice and I’ve certainly dried out a bit. But then I have moments like I did Sunday where an Old Testament lesson gets me ranting at my wife in the middle of Sunday School. And what do I do next time I get a calling that sounds especially awful? And how do I endure the 20-30 minutes of scripture time a day? And how do I watch my kids being raised with screwed up ideas about life, sex, and religion? And and and…

These are rhetorical questions but they’re just a sampling of the thoughts that make me question how long I can endure the middle way.
Not Buying It wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 10:08 am
But you've waited a long time. At some point you either make your own opportunities to disengage or you wait for an opportunity that may never come. Couple suggestions: What opportunities do you have to disengage even just a little? Maybe resign from callings, start missing one hour of Church, start saying no to requests, maybe decline to "minister"? In my book, when you disengage you are not obligated to tell anyone the reason - make up reasons that won't raise red flags if you need to, you don't owe anyone true explanations, if a little white lie gets you a little farther out without raising suspicions on the part of people whose business it isn't anyway, I think that is A-OK. What baby steps can you take to disengage even a little bit?

Are you in a position to subtly let your children know all is not right in the Church? Respecting a spouse's wishes to raise children in the Church is important, but a parent who knows there are problems and doesn't find ways to let their children know are in some sense negligent. Don't let your kid be the one who wouldn't have given the Church two years of his life on a mission if he'd known the things his father knew but didn't tell him. You don't have to tell them everything at once - there are ways of letting out a little at a time without blowing their minds.
I haven’t taken many steps, even baby ones. I told my wife that I would say no to the next calling. She thinks this is common and no big deal which makes me wonder if she realizes I mean I will say no to any calling. Because being someone who won’t take callings at all puts you on watch lists. Lots of ‘em.

As for the kids, I can’t say much. For example, I talked with one of them in the car recently about the sexual theme of a song that came on and I got reamed by my wife for bringing up sex without making clear it’s a super sin to do it before marriage.
Linked wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 1:02 pm
This post really resonates.

There is no good time. When things are bad you don't want to overload, and when things are good you don't want to rock the boat. You don't want screw up the upcoming baptism or baby blessing or temple trip or etc.

The only time I make any changes are when I am just so overwhelmed it gets unhealthy. Very reactive and probably a bad long term plan.
I’ve related to a lot of your posts over the time you’ve been on the board. I’ve appreciated a lot of what you’re had to say about what you’re going through.

I’ve come to the conclusion that if I am to disengage from the church someday it would be best to do it during the good times. Yeah it sucks to ruin a good run but I don’t want to be forever associated with that thing that offended me that one time.

But it’s all in my dreams at this point…
IT_Veteran wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 1:43 pm
I ended up sending my email to her on Valentine's Day. 0/10 - do not recommend, I didn't even realize it until much later in the day.

There may never be a good time to make the break, not really. All of that stuff will weigh on you. I just reached a point where I recognized there was never a good time and I could either do it anyway, when the timing wasn't right, or not at all.
Ouch on the timing. I broke down and told my wife how deep the disaffection ran just a couple weeks before our anniversary last year. Not as bad but things were still super awkward when the big day came.
GoodBoy wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 1:46 pm
Yes. There is no good time. I also have young kids and I will also be missing baptisms, weddings, and baby blessings in my future. But for me, an hour or two of embarrassment is not worth hundreds of hours of me going crazy in church meetings every year and 10% of my income. People will judge me unfairly. I'm at peace with that. I won't judge them for doing so. They can't understand without me breaking their own lives. I will have lunch ready when they come home from church, and will watch the children when my daughters go into the temple to be married. And I will enjoy sleeping in on Sundays and otherwise doing things that make me happy.

One thing that all NOMs need to do is to start the work of finding non-Mormon friends, or at least friends where you do non-church things together. You will have to go be the awkward newbie for a while, but if you don't, you will never be able to leave without a lot of hurt and anger at the loss of your only tribe or community. Try https://www.meetup.com/ and http://www.mormonspectrum.org/ for starters.
I’m glad you’ve found peace with your decision. I worry so much about that worst case scenario. Wife wanting to leave me, kids never really forgiving me. I’ve watched the pain my BIL has gone through and I wonder if he feels it’s been worth it. But dammit if your way doesn’t sound pretty nice.
alas wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 3:22 pm
There is no good time to make the break, and no good way to make the announcement, that being said, you just do it when you can no longer keep your sanity while pretending that it's all true. And you kind of know when that tipping point comes, because suddenly all those people who are going to look down on you for not believing are just no longer important. Even if those people are children, inlaws, and family.

But I guess, while there is no good time, there are worse times. I think I told DH I. Was. Never. Going. Back. Between my mother's death and the funeral. She had been living with us, and I was the primary caregiver as she went down hill. I still have not figured out why that was my timing, but I just reached the point that even to save my marriage, I just couldn't keep up the charade. So, we are dealing with informing family and planning the funeral, and I drop that on him. But maybe it was realizing that life is short and fragile, and living a lie just is not worth the cost.
It find it interesting that both you and IT_Vet picked times you felt were awful but still don’t regret the decision. Makes me think.
Last edited by TestimonyLost on Thu May 10, 2018 7:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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TestimonyLost
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Re: There's no good time to make a break

Post by TestimonyLost » Thu May 10, 2018 7:08 am

Anon70 wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 3:36 pm
Red Ryder wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 10:05 am
Can't we just be a dried out dead grape on the vine in the Lord's vineyard?
I 've been trying to do this for 4 years. It gets harder every year for me - I can't stand the group-think, the persecution complex, the superiority complex, etc. Plus, it's sooooo boring and so fake once you see through it all. So, I don't know, I think I'm like Testimony Lost--I can see me being stuck here for years and it's becoming really untenable.
I feel you, Anon70. Does your spouse know you no longer believe?
Interesting read. Thanks for sharing. I’m an anxiety-ridden, overanalytical basket case most of the time. I probably regret it all too much.
Perfigliano wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 7:22 pm
Even in my current situation, there are other events that go on- weddings, baptisms, mission calls, weddings, farewells, homecomings, weddings... you know. Any time you pick will always be awkwardly sandwiched between two big events of someone else's life. It's still hard to come out of the exmo closet to the people you love. It shatters their world. It's loads easier coming out to nevermos and total strangers - I know from experience.
Your last line made me laugh. I have a few coworkers I trust that know I have no faith in God or religion. One or two of them knew long before my wife!
glass shelf wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 7:48 pm
You know that saying about trees? The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is today. That's how I feel about leaving Mormonism.
Love it. How long have you been away from the church? What finally gave you the courage to leave?
slavereeno wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 9:21 pm
TestimonyLost wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 7:48 am
By recommitting months ago to stay engaged with church for now, have I delayed her processing my total lack of belief?
This is sounding very familiar, my DW is not entirely TBM at this point (I think) but her preference would be to just keep up the appearance that we are TBM. Its unsettling to her when I start edging towards the door, plenty of anxiety there. My FAIR TBM friend is convinced he is going to re-convert me any day now, so he encourages me to just play along for a while.

There seems to be a lot of threads going around about slow versus fast exit strategies. As DW and I discussed we determined that the benefit of fast is that the unpleasantness of coming out about disbelief does not continue to loom overhead like a dark shadow. The benefit of slow is perhaps the delay can have me see my kids' weddings and allow others to adjust without ruining relationships.

I dunno, we have gone back and forth. It causes a lot of stress either way it seems.
Just hearing that others in their own situations are struggling in a similar way. Love the NOM support group!

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MerrieMiss
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Re: There's no good time to make a break

Post by MerrieMiss » Thu May 10, 2018 10:27 am

I'm sorry. I think my dad is kind of where you are. I wonder if he ever made a spreadsheet? My siblings are all grown up and gone, but my nephews are teenagers, so there are ordinances, a mission soon, marriages come soon after that, my kids' baptisms, and then their ordinances, missions, marriages, more baby blessings...and then death I guess. It's not a very pleasant way of looking at it.

There just isn't a good time. And if I am honest with myself, there wasn't a good time to have a faith crisis either, it just kind of happened regardless of what was going on in my life. Although having one at twenty would have been a hell of a lot better than after I was married and had kids.

I'm in a tough spot right now. I was going to come clean with my husband because I just couldn't take it anymore and I really need to step back. And now I don't know if I can because it would be one extra thing on him when there's some really big stuff going on. But here's the thing: I'm dealing with real life right now too, AND I'm keeping this stupid mormon thing all bottled up inside. While I'm trying to be so considerate of my husband, who is being considerate about me? It's time for some serious self care.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that as much as we try to make it easy on the people around us (and I'm going to anthropomorphize faith crises here), no person's faith crisis cared whether it was a good timing or not and the mormons in our lives don't care how we feel so long as they get to go on pretending everything is okay.

Anon70
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Re: There's no good time to make a break

Post by Anon70 » Thu May 10, 2018 2:30 pm

TestimonyLost wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 7:08 am
Anon70 wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 3:36 pm
Red Ryder wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 10:05 am
Can't we just be a dried out dead grape on the vine in the Lord's vineyard?
I 've been trying to do this for 4 years. It gets harder every year for me - I can't stand the group-think, the persecution complex, the superiority complex, etc. Plus, it's sooooo boring and so fake once you see through it all. So, I don't know, I think I'm like Testimony Lost--I can see me being stuck here for years and it's becoming really untenable.
I feel you, Anon70. Does your spouse know you no longer believe?
Yes and it's gotten much better than it was 4 years ago--but I'm much more careful how I talk about it. I was going to say he's so much better about my "apostasy"--doesn't get upset if I do things on Sunday now that we wouldn't have before, that I don't wear G's, that I drink tea (gasp), occasionally agrees with my concerns about the church, etc. but really, I'm the one making all the accommodations. To the outside world I am a literal card-carrying TBM. So, he gets what he wants and that why MerrieMiss' post (below) resonated with me so much....
MerrieMiss wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 10:27 am
While I'm trying to be so considerate of my husband, who is being considerate about me? It's time for some serious self care.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that as much as we try to make it easy on the people around us (and I'm going to anthropomorphize faith crises here), no person's faith crisis cared whether it was a good timing or not and the mormons in our lives don't care how we feel so long as they get to go on pretending everything is okay.
He gets to pretend and nothing really changes for him..for me I have to keep on faking, lying and living a lie and so he's ok with my little secret disobediences because no one knows. I wonder what would happen if I broke cover?

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IT_Veteran
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Re: There's no good time to make a break

Post by IT_Veteran » Thu May 10, 2018 3:10 pm

Could be little things that Mormons use for virtue signaling. Like showing up to a ward activity in a tank top. I stopped wearing white shirts to sacrament meeting before I was fully out.

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