Best possible relationship between TBM parents and apostate child?

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NewUU
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Best possible relationship between TBM parents and apostate child?

Post by NewUU » Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:30 pm

Hi everyone,
Recently I’ve been visiting with a nevermo therapist about my relationship with my TBM parents and siblings. I live 8 hours away from them (I moved away after leaving the Church about 4 years ago), and feel no motivation to attend family events (definitely not weddings, baptisms, funerals or anything church related) and don’t even feel like going to graduations and other secular stuff. I just send a card with money to honor the occasions.

The therapist asked me: “What would have to change in your family so that you would want to go to those events and enjoy yourself there?” He also asked “What would have to change in yourself so that you would want to go to those events and enjoy yourself there?”

At this point, I’m not sure. I’m not sure if I’m willing to invest in trying to have a relationship with them, suspecting that no matter what I do, they will always fear me, be disappointed in me, and will either constantly try to reconvert me or label me as an angry apostate when I set firm boundaries and make it clear I am never coming back.

What have you all seen? What’s the best possible relationship that can happen between TBM parents and an apostate adult child? What do those relationships look like—do both sides just avoid religious topics? Are they only superficial relationships?

They have served 5 missions and currently have an apartment across from the conference center so they can serve a part-time mission at the Family History Library. When I left the church, my mom called me a traitor to the family. I’m divorced with no children. I have 8 siblings and 36 nieces and nephews, many of whom are now serving missions, attending BYU, and getting married in the temple. Several of them still give me a Book of Mormon for Christmas or birthday gifts, or make attempts to re-convert me, and then when I ask “Can we have a relationship that doesn’t involve religion”, they stop trying.

I feel like I must hide much of my life from them (shopping on Sundays, drinking coffee, enjoying the Unitarian Universalist church etc) to avoid hurting them, which also limits the depth of our relationship. What’s the best that these types of relationships have the potential to be, in your experience?

NewUU
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Re: Best possible relationship between TBM parents and apostate child?

Post by NewUU » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:49 pm

A better way to ask the question: do any of you have positive relationships with your TBM parents (and you're out about your disbelief)?

If so, how do you handle family events? Do you show them your non-LDS lifestyle? Do you talk about religion with them, or mostly avoid it?

Thoughtful
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Re: Best possible relationship between TBM parents and apostate child?

Post by Thoughtful » Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:35 pm

My parents, though continuing to be TBM, have listened quietly to all my complaints. My mom read The Ghost of Eternal Polygamy. With recent events they don't judge my inactivity. But my siblings broke status quo awhile back-- that helped me out I think.

If my in-laws find out, they will completely implode.

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Corsair
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Re: Best possible relationship between TBM parents and apostate child?

Post by Corsair » Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:01 pm

Thoughtful wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:35 pm
If my in-laws find out, they will completely implode.
I also have imploding in-laws. They know I'm a bit of an iconoclast and liberal believer, but the full extent is not known. My wife prefers it this way.

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Mormorrisey
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Re: Best possible relationship between TBM parents and apostate child?

Post by Mormorrisey » Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:25 am

This is a tough one, I feel for you. I think your therapist is largely correct, it's a little bit of both parties needing to change a little bit - the wisdom comes in figuring out which group needs to change, and at what points, and when. All I can give you is my own story.

Your mom calling you a "traitor" is pretty cut and dry - my mother has used that kind of language with me, and so I create rigid boundaries, and there's no relationship at all there. That's just the way it is. My in-laws know of my challenges, and some of them largely ignore religion as a topic, agree with some of things I say and things are cool, others are disturbed by it and give me a wide berth. I think that's fairly normal.

The rest of my family, and in particular my kids, have determined that the familial relationship is FAR more important than religion, and things are pretty great. Even Sis M. is making great strides, and things are so much better.

So I learn from this, that I can't control the reactions of my mom and some inlaws, so it can be strained. All the relationships where both parties are determined to overcome religious obstacles, things are great. Really great, and getting better.

That's about all I can offer you - I sure wish you well navigating this.
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Kishkumen
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Re: Best possible relationship between TBM parents and apostate child?

Post by Kishkumen » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:01 am

NewUU - your post really resonated with me. I read it last night, but wasn't sure how to respond - I still don't know.

My wife and I are out of the church and this is well known to our family. We live 11 hours away from everyone, but they come visit and we go visit a few times per year. The topic of religion usually doesn't come up much intentionally anymore. This last weekend, our full apostacy was on display. Coffee maker on the kitchen counter and consuming my daily morning brew. No alcohol hidden and openly consumed at will. Walking around in a tank top (it's friggin hot in Phoenix).

However, my MIL couldn't help but mention church related stuff in normal conversation. She wasn't pushing any agenda, it's just such a daily part of their life that it's brought up frequently.

For my parents, it's the same way. In fact, our local ward knows my parents much better than they know us. My folks visit a few times each year and almost always during a weekend. They usually attend sunday services and the ward knows them. It's kinda wierd that they are better known than we are.

Anyway - my point is - just be yourself. Go visit and let them visit. Church stuff will always be there in the background. It really really sucks getting a BoM as a birthday gift with them trying to reconvert you. If you need space away from them, that's fine, you be you. If they come visit - don't hide the coffee pot. If you go visit, their house their rules. Stay at a hotel or AirBnB if necessary.

I think religion will always hinder our relationship to some degree. There's a core identity about it that makes us different, but that doesn't mean we can't still have some type of relationship. However, If they drive you so crazy you can't take it, then move on for now. Let them think what they will. You have friends and loved ones to connect with if not them.

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alas
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Re: Best possible relationship between TBM parents and apostate child?

Post by alas » Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:22 am

I have found that "firm boundaries" often make things worse. The more you insist that you will never come back to church, the more they either cut you off completely, or try harder to get you to repent. But if you keep the lines soft, they tend to soften their own boundaries. In other words, the more you fight against them/church, the more they fight against you/apostasy. Yes, draw the line firmly at them being obnoxious about things church related, but then again, you don't inflict your apostasy on them in obnoxious ways. Often you have to set the example of loving them even when you find their religion irritating. Even saying repeatedly that family is more important than religious differences. See, by refusing to go to family stuff, you are saying that your apostasy is more important to you than your family is. Well, maybe that is how you honestly feel, and in that case, there is nothing they can do to fix the relationship, because you are being a hard ass about it. You require them to agree with you that the church is bunk before you are willing to fight for a relationship. An example, say your sibling is getting married in the temple. Well, you can't go in to see the actual wedding, so why even come from out of state? That is saying you are more insulted that they are holding the wedding in the temple than your love for them will tolerate. You are the one who is refusing to show love and tolerance for differences. The loving thing to do is come and wait while they all go in the temple, then celebrate the wedding. Right now, by not wanting to go to family events, you are shunning THEM. Sure, they are going to give you a bad time about how you should repent, but just let that roll off of you. Accept that as part of their Mormonism and see it as a way of saying "we love you and are sad you are not with us" rather than as an attack on you. Soften those boundaries enough that you can "reframe"* their comments to see the love behind those comments instead of just seeing the Mormonism.

* therapy word meaning see it in a different way.

If you find their comment too irritating, look at them and smile and say, "yeah, when hell freezes over." Or, something that recognizes their love for you, but still says no thank you to the religion. For example, "Thanks for loving me enough to want me in the temple with you, but Mormonisn just doesn't work for me." Don't try to justify whyMormonism doesn't work or you no longer believe because they will see that as an attack, even though you do not mean it that way.

So, I am suggesting that you take the high ground of forgiving them for still being Mormon, reinterpret their efforts to bring you back as acts of love, rather than an attack on you, and to be careful that you don't say things that they will see as an attack on them.

Then with time, they will see that a relationship with a nonmember can work because you are setting an example of how it works. Don't expect your loved one to change for you, just love them anyway. It starts with you, not them changing.

NewUU
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Re: Best possible relationship between TBM parents and apostate child?

Post by NewUU » Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:04 pm

Thank you everyone. Yes, it's true, alas,--I'm the one shunning them right now, and I am trying to decide whether or not the relationship has enough value that I'm willing to fight for it.

Right now, my gut feelings make me unwilling to fight for the relationship, because it seems like the cost of doing so is higher than the benefit. But my rational mind is not comfortable with that--hence, I'm in therapy. My rational mind thinks that on my deathbed, or when my parents are on their deathbeds, I'll probably regret just moving on and building a life that doesn't involve them.

I'm not sure how to change my gut feelings, or how to generate motivation within myself to be willing to do the work and deal with all the uncomfortable experiences it would take to try to rebuild some type of relationship with them. I guess that's why I'm asking you all what the ideal relationship looks like, to know if the best case scenario is good enough that I would feel willing to sacrifice for it.

I appreciate all of your thoughts and input.

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alas
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Re: Best possible relationship between TBM parents and apostate child?

Post by alas » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:09 am

I understand that sometimes t doesn't seem worth it, because it feels like it is all on us to swallow our pride and listen to them as they preach junk at us that we have heard before and it didn't make sense before, so why should repeating it make it true.

Hmmm, when your parents are on their death bed will you regret not spending more time with them? That is hard and my crystal ball is kind of fuzzy. My parents were abusive, my dad was sexually abusive and my mom was just unable/unwilling to see what was going on and figured she was the only one my dad ever hurt. So, I have no regrets about the bad relationship with him, but I did maintain the relationship with my mother. So, for me it was very different than my parents being preachy TBMs.

But in general, the people who study such things say that unless your parents are actively abusive, you will regret cutting them off. But still it is so individual. And is being condemned for not believing as they do abusive? I guess it depends on the level of condemnation.

But in counseling people, I found that it was safe to say that you will regret not *trying* to improve the relationship out of fear of judgement. Once you know that you gave the relationship your best shot, then if it continues to be too painful then you walk away with no regrets. But I don't know how long you have worked at this or your past with them, so I am just throwing out generalities. You have to decide based on your own history with them.

But what is a good relationship like? I have that with my in laws. Some are TBM and some are drinking partying Jack Mormons, and some are happy apostates. Nobody judges and nobody preaches. The relationship is more important than the church. My husband is TBM and I am a doubter from childhood. My kids are: oldest, apostate deeply into cosplay. Second child, pagan priestess married lesbian. Third child TBM, very very active TBM. My in laws were believer married to Jack but both are now deceased. Of my husband's siblings, 1. believer married to apostate, 2. believer, married to obnoxious pushy believer (every family needs one) 3. apostate, married to apostate 4. believer deceased but believing widow remarried to believer. 5. Drinking partying Jack married to drinking partying Jack. 6. Believer who was married to a believer who was killed in the line of duty. So, until you get to the children of siblings there are no divorces and 30-49 year marriages. It is a pretty mixed group as far as beliefs and everybody knows every one's standing with the church. We are not afraid of losing each other for eternity because love trumps church ordinances, and the believers like my husband trust the atonement and trust the family member to do the best they can with what they know. For example, the partying Jack Mormons, who are probably "the worst" for violating church standards. They know that when they tried to get active, people were fake friends, people lied, people manipulated, people were very unChristlike in putting church before relationships. They saw through the fake. They have better values than to treat people the way they were treated. They want nothing to do with this fake organization. So, *IF* the church really turns out to be true and they stand before God and he asks them why they were " unfaithful" they will explain their experience. Then some fake people who pretended to be friends just long enough for them to get sealed in the temple will be called in to explain why they treated others by manipulating, lying, faking friendship, and with no real love of people, just loyality to an organization. You can read in the Bible how Jesus felt about people who had no love of mankind, just followed the rules of their religion.

So, it takes understanding that love is more important than church rules. It takes understanding that IF there is a God, then he/she/it is good or is not worth worshipping. It takes accepting that doing one's best is good enough. The Mormon church really does not teach that doing one's best is enough. Which is why it took a BYU professor to try to correct that with his teaching with the parable of the bicycle. Basically that if a child wants a bike and dad says earn it by doing chores for pennies, the child will never get there with pennies. So if Dad is good, Dad is going to accept that the child's best efforts are good enough, and buy the kid a bike. If Dad is a jerk, the kid earns pennies and won't earn the bike until they are 26. God if he/she/it exists is good and will not demand that we "know" what is unknowable or believe stuff that is not logical or goes against evidence.

It may take telling your parents that you are doing the best you can to be a good person with what you know and that you trust God to judge you according to how you do with what you know. Then being around them enough for them to see that you are still a good person and not believing in Mormonism did not turn you into a serial killer. This is what we here on NOM tell each other about our spouses. It takes time for them to see that our leaving the church didn't take us over the edge into drugs and adultery and all the evil the church tells you you will get into with out it.

On the other hand, depending on your age, you may need time to figure out who you are, separate from your parents, and you may just need a vacation from them. See, there is so much I don't know about you, that advice over the Internet comes down to, "It depends."

Hopebeat
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Re: Best possible relationship between TBM parents and apostate child?

Post by Hopebeat » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:30 am

I’m in favor of changing myself and my perception on things rather than thinking about how to change others. You cannot make others change. But you can draw boundaries. You can make religion a no go topic for you. You do not talk about religion to them, they do not talk about religion to you, and make it very clear that this is the boundary. You may even have to tell them more than once.

What do you want out of this relationship? Now, it seems like you’ve kept your distance. You don’t want to keep your distance now? You want to go to family gatherings? You want to see them once a year? Think and write about what kind of relationship YOU want with them. What advice would you give a friend if they were in the same situation as you? I’m gonna ask you a lot of questions, just think about them for a bit to try to get a change in perspective.

Don’t let fear get in the way. What if they fear me? What if they don’t respect my boundaries? What if.. anything? What’s the absolute worst thing that could happen? Think about that. How would you respond in that situation? Is that situation realistic? You can’t control how people will react. But if you approach it like “hey family, I really miss you guys and I want to reconnect. I want us to have a good relationship again but let’s take it slow.” If you approach it like that, I can see them responding well.

You don’t know that they will fear you. That’s just your perception. You don’t know for sure that they’re uncomfortable around you. Unless they tell you, even then you can’t assume. Whatever they think of you is their business, not yours. It doesn’t matter what they think of it.

It’s like getting someone a birthday present and they open it and they wrinkle their nose at it. You assume they don’t like you. In reality they probably don’t like the PRESENT and it has nothing to do with YOU. Seems ridiculous, right? But that’s the same line of thinking I see here.

If anything else, just know that they’re loving you the best way they know how. That might look like Books of Mormon and conference talks to them. That’s all they know how to show their support. They don’t know any other way. If you make new boundaries then they’ll have to adjust to that to make you comfortable to those boundaries. And if they don’t just know that the church is their thing and that’s how they communicate. It doesn’t have much to do with you.
Last edited by Hopebeat on Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Linked
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Re: Best possible relationship between TBM parents and apostate child?

Post by Linked » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:32 am

NewUU wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:04 pm
Thank you everyone. Yes, it's true, alas,--I'm the one shunning them right now, and I am trying to decide whether or not the relationship has enough value that I'm willing to fight for it.

Right now, my gut feelings make me unwilling to fight for the relationship, because it seems like the cost of doing so is higher than the benefit. But my rational mind is not comfortable with that--hence, I'm in therapy. My rational mind thinks that on my deathbed, or when my parents are on their deathbeds, I'll probably regret just moving on and building a life that doesn't involve them.

I'm not sure how to change my gut feelings, or how to generate motivation within myself to be willing to do the work and deal with all the uncomfortable experiences it would take to try to rebuild some type of relationship with them. I guess that's why I'm asking you all what the ideal relationship looks like, to know if the best case scenario is good enough that I would feel willing to sacrifice for it.

I appreciate all of your thoughts and input.
My mind and gut feelings are doing the opposite dance for me. In my mind I think it might make sense to just move on with my life outside of the church and cut TBMs out of my close relationships. But then my gut tells me I NEED those relationships. They are the people who make me feel not alone in this world. It sounds like you have moved on from that with your family?

Realizing I needed that relationship has really made it easier to look past their mormonism. It is still annoying, but now that I know I'm not going to do anything about it I don't dwell on it as much. And most of my family realize it is tacky to push their beliefs on me. Except my Dad. He thought he had the perfect thing the other day when I told him work was being stressful; he lit up and told me maybe I just need to pray like Lamoni's father, just pray for god to answer if he's there and to help me. I rolled my eyes in my mind and told him to please not do that, that I don't believe in god the way he does and it is insulting to be pushed to it. I told him I know he is trying to help and that it is his way of loving me, but that it bothered me. He has been a little better since.

For the rest of us we mostly avoid talking about religion. We talk about kids, and tools, and work, and tech, and science, and sports. We play games and laugh together. We are nice to each others kids. There is always a wedge between us, but for me I still need them and they are okay with me. We text multiple times a week and get together a couple times a month. I don't yet do anything that would make them uncomfortable like drink alcohol or coffee around them, I'm not sure how that would go.

For reference, my parents just finished their 2nd mission, 2 brothers are councilors in bishoprics and the other works in the temple. My dad is an adult convert.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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Mormorrisey
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Re: Best possible relationship between TBM parents and apostate child?

Post by Mormorrisey » Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:30 pm

alas wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:09 am
Hmmm, when your parents are on their death bed will you regret not spending more time with them? That is hard and my crystal ball is kind of fuzzy. My parents were abusive, my dad was sexually abusive and my mom was just unable/unwilling to see what was going on and figured she was the only one my dad ever hurt. So, I have no regrets about the bad relationship with him, but I did maintain the relationship with my mother. So, for me it was very different than my parents being preachy TBMs.

But in general, the people who study such things say that unless your parents are actively abusive, you will regret cutting them off. But still it is so individual. And is being condemned for not believing as they do abusive? I guess it depends on the level of condemnation.

On the other hand, depending on your age, you may need time to figure out who you are, separate from your parents, and you may just need a vacation from them. See, there is so much I don't know about you, that advice over the Internet comes down to, "It depends."
I think this is valuable advice, especially the "it depends." Let me tell you a bit of my journey with my condemnatory mom, the only relationship that REALLY doesn't work of mine. This has been going on for years, particularly when I contradicted her, or didn't follow her advice. Until I found the reddit site "raised by narcissists" I had no clue on how to figure out my mom's behaviour, and why she did what she did. So I'd visit or call, and then get badgered for an hour or so on why my politics were wrong, why my liberal mormon views were wrong, etc. etc. And then I'd take a break for a while. It's not as if she ever called me, either - so then I'd feel guilty, or my wife would say, "you can't just ignore your mom." So I'd go back, have a decent phone call, where I thought we worked through some things, and then a day or two later would get a scathing email on what a terrible son I was, and how I wasn't going to be with her in the CK.

While this went on for most of my life, it had gotten really bad over the last few years. Finally, I realized I just couldn't feel guilt or feel my wife's guilt - I had to cut this toxic relationship largely out of my life. In fact, part of Sis. M's transformation over the last couple of years, is that she has finally recognized my mom's narcissism and has dropped badgering me about going back for more passive aggressive abuse (which ironically, made her HATE my wife, while my wife is the only one willing to give her a break because of mormon guilt!) I now have a way of dealing with her. Just out of the blue, I will send her pictures of the kids/grandkids. She'll thank me, I'll respond nicely, then two days later send me some really nasty email about how I'm a neglectful son. I ignore it, then a few weeks later start this over again. The last time I had hope, she didn't respond nastily for over a month - but then old habits die hard and went on a good rant about how awful I am. So it's not much of a relationship, but I'm simply not going to keep crawling back for more abuse. It's pretty simple.

So I think this is rare, and I'm pretty sure my mom is just this way - the church just exacerbates the narcissism in her. So it's not really about the church for me at all, I get along with MOST of the TBM's in my life. So while the guilt is not really there any more, and I have no regrets about cutting out toxicity, I do agree with alas that cutting people out of your life SHOULD be a rare situation. If I were you, take a look at the reddit site:

https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/

It was very helpful for me to look back at my life, and see how this affected me and my relationship with my mom. And I can see how this can be useful for EVERY toxic relationship in one's life; from a bad boss, to a bad friend, etc. But for every other relationship, I'm convinced along with alas and others, it should be able to work, if everyone tries hard enough.

Good luck, and a great thread.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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LucyHoneychurch
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Re: Best possible relationship between TBM parents and apostate child?

Post by LucyHoneychurch » Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:49 pm

Unless they are abusive, my opinion is that family is a net benefit. I've been out four years, and those years have been quite rough in the family of origin reactions. But we all just keep showing up, and that has come to mean so much to me. Time is a true healer, as long as you keep showing up. A new normal will emerge as you follow the soft boundary advice and support your family members the way you want to be supported. I value those who have reciprocated, more than ever.
"I want to be truthful," she whispered. "It is so hard to be absolutely truthful."

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moksha
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Re: Best possible relationship between TBM parents and apostate child?

Post by moksha » Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:36 pm

NewUU wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:30 pm
What’s the best that these types of relationships have the potential to be, in your experience?
Seems to me these relationships can have great potential as long as everyone strives for mutual respect. That said, it helps when TBMs can emulate the mercy of Jesus rather than being so damn judgmental. It requires some unlearning but they have a great incentive when it comes to their own child. Let them know that love can melt even the hardest Mormon heart.
Best wishes.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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