Saints

[slavereeno]

https://www.lds.org/church/news/saints- ... s?lang=eng

DW is reading these and its giving me a rash...

[MerrieMiss]

I wonder how big a push it will be to read this. I know it was mentioned at a Stake Priesthood meeting last month. Of course I wasn't there, so I have no idea what was said about it, just that it was mentioned and I was able to look it up. I did not find the first chapter engaging.

[Ghost]

I've been looking forward to these, though I've assumed that I will be disappointed in light of all the talk about transparency.

I looked at the chapters they've posted so far. The writing style is not especially engaging. I suppose that they are keeping things simple for ease of comprehension and translation.

They merge the First Vision accounts into a single narrative and then include a basic explanation of why there are different accounts.

Joseph's pre-translation abilities with the seer stone are described as authentic.

One day, while Joseph was helping a neighbor dig a well, he came across a small stone buried deep in the earth. Aware that people sometimes used special stones to search for lost objects or hidden treasure, Joseph wondered if he had found such a stone. Looking into it, he saw things invisible to the natural eye.

Joseph’s gift for using the stone impressed family members, who saw it as a sign of divine favor.

[slavereeno]

So DW has started reading all of these. Reading this version of history gives me a rash because I was falling into a nice pattern of indifference and starting to do a lot of things that had nothing to do with Mormonism. These are going to suck me right back and with whiplash.

There are a lot of questions the history and its narratives have brought up that I don't always have an answer to.

I feel that I have to try to come up with a narrative that combats the church's narrative so I can justify staying out. I was caught flat footed, with no response to questions other than vague recollections from stuff I may have read somewhere on the interwebs.

[Edited: This was a bit of a nasty rant, so I just put my personal feelings about this narrative.]

[Reuben]

Sounds like you've been put on the defensive again. That's not a nice place to be. I wonder if your wife has been feeling like that, and this Saints pablum is acting like a pressure release.

Specific responses:

3. There's always room, no matter how little. The trick with apologetics is to focus on the narrow possibility, and then exclude enough counterevidence that believers can feel like it's wide while still feeling honest. At least she admits that the church's version is too rosy. Is that progress?

She's probably right that most antagonists paint it too black, and overfocus on negative things. But usually, they're responding to black-and-white claims. It makes sense to respond to falsifiable-sounding statements with clear falsification. This more nuanced devotional history is going to require a more nuanced response.

4. Believers need to see more examples of unbelievers doing good to cure them of this arrogant notion.

5. Any chance your wife would sit down for an extended heart-to-heart with one of them? If so, I would make it a rule to avoid specific historical issues that aren't necessary to the deconversion story, to help focus the discussion on the person who left.

Deliberately not understanding the "other" is a common act of self-deception. I wonder what Jesus would do...

[Corsair]

I feel like I am completely back to square one!!! Now I have to try to come up with a narrative that combats the church's narrative so I can justify to DW staying out (at least mentally).

Stop doing that. It won't work. It is not your job to justify your disinterest in the church. You are fighting in exactly the arena the church entirely owns. There are answers to all of her questions you listed, but there are too many thought-stopping responses she could give. "You are being influenced by Satan." "I don't feel the spirit from you." "I have a strong testimony of the LDS church." "I felt such peace when I attended the temple today." "My ministering teachers are wonderful." "President Nelson is a true prophet, just like Joseph Smith." "The saints would never have sacrificed so much for a lie."

You are trying to use a dialectical hammer against her game of rhetorical wack-a-mole. It will only damage your relationship with her. Don't look at her testimony as something you hope will break. Reality is that you have a mixed-faith marriage. This is the true state of your marriage, not some transitory state. Ironically, if the best strategy that will most likely lead to both "staying happily married" and "her exiting the church" is for you to support her LDS activity. You can generically agree with all of the thought-stopping responses listed above without committing to do anything.

You can agree that she might not feel the spirit from you. Agree that she might think that Satan is involved. Agree that she has a strong testimony of the church. Agree that she believes that Russell Nelson and Joseph Smith are true prophets (also polygamists). Be happy that she enjoyed her temple session and show interest in what she feels that she learned.

Support her in her calling as you would a good friend that had an expensive hobby. Do you like golf? It's popular, but it's not cheap. She is paying dues to an expensive religious country club and you should grit your teeth and support her efforts to take strokes off her religious game. Don't bad mouth the game or the remarkably expensive building she plays in. You don't have to keep paying dues for your own membership, but overly trying to get her to quit the club will only backfire on you.

Don't fight against the church. Spend your time on something that actually is meaningful to you. You really need a new hobby. Post in the "Miscellaneous" section about that classic car you are restoring, or your new talent in playing guitar, or how you are learning to speak Italian, or a project with a 3D printer, or your progress in deadlifts, or that cool water feature you built in your backyard, or the insights you gained from reading "The Didache", or progress pictures of that three masted model schooner model you built. What is your hobby that brings fulfillment like your wife's religious hobby? The LDS church needs some stiff competition and having something you actually want to do instead is your next step.

[alas]

I feel like I am completely back to square one!!! Now I have to try to come up with a narrative that combats the church's narrative so I can justify to DW staying out (at least mentally).

Stop doing that. It won't work. It is not your job to justify your disinterest in the church. You are fighting in exactly the arena the church entirely owns. There are answers to all of her questions you listed, but there are too many thought-stopping responses she could give. "You are being influenced by Satan." "I don't feel the spirit from you." "I have a strong testimony of the LDS church." "I felt such peace when I attended the temple today." "My ministering teachers are wonderful." "President Nelson is a true prophet, just like Joseph Smith." "The saints would never have sacrificed so much for a lie."

You are trying to use a dialectical hammer against her game of rhetorical wack-a-mole. It will only damage your relationship with her. Don't look at her testimony as something you hope will break. Reality is that you have a mixed-faith marriage. This is the true state of your marriage, not some transitory state. Ironically, if the best strategy that will most likely lead to both "staying happily married" and "her exiting the church" is for you to support her LDS activity. You can generically agree with all of the thought-stopping responses listed above without committing to do anything.

You can agree that she might not feel the spirit from you. Agree that she might think that Satan is involved. Agree that she has a strong testimony of the church. Agree that she believes that Russell Nelson and Joseph Smith are true prophets (also polygamists). Be happy that she enjoyed her temple session and show interest in what she feels that she learned.

Support her in her calling as you would a good friend that had an expensive hobby. Do you like golf? It's popular, but it's not cheap. She is paying dues to an expensive religious country club and you should grit your teeth and support her efforts to take strokes off her religious game. Don't bad mouth the game or the remarkably expensive building she plays in. You don't have to keep paying dues for your own membership, but overly trying to get her to quit the club will only backfire on you.

Don't fight against the church. Spend your time on something that actually is meaningful to you. You really need a new hobby. Post in the "Miscellaneous" section about that classic car you are restoring, or your new talent in playing guitar, or how you are learning to speak Italian, or a project with a 3D printer, or your progress in deadlifts, or that cool water feature you built in your backyard, or the insights you gained from reading "The Didache", or progress pictures of that three masted model schooner model you built. What is your hobby that brings fulfillment like your wife's religious hobby? The LDS church needs some stiff competition and having something you actually want to do instead is your next step.

This.

Accept that you have a mixed faith marriage, and that the woman you love is who she is, partly because of the Church. What if she leaves the church and turns into someone you don’t like? Yeah, that happens around here more than you think. A spouse works to get their spouse out, and she/he finally leaves and instead of finding themselves closer, they find they have nothing in common and divorce. I have seen that more often than I have seen the couples who stay mixed faith divorce over the church.

Stop fighting against the church. Your fighting against the church just proves that you are under Satan’s influence, because after all contention is of the devil. You trying to undermine her testimony will just make her dig in harder. How does the church teach people to protect their testimony from attack? Well, she is going to be doing them if she thinks her testimony is under attack. Yeah, if she feels you attacking the church, it just strengthens her resolve to be faithful.

Find yourself a new hobbie. It will take your mind off the church and make you happier, so you will feel less need to change your wife. Finding happiness is the goal post Mormon, not seeing how many people you can pull away from the church. Forget the stupid church and go find YOUR happiness.

[slavereeno]

Sounds like you've been put on the defensive again. That's not a nice place to be. I wonder if your wife has been feeling like that, and this Saints pablum is acting like a pressure release.

Stop doing that. It won't work (...) Reality is that you have a mixed-faith marriage. This is the true state of your marriage, not some transitory state.

Accept that you have a mixed faith marriage, and that the woman you love is who she is, partly because of the Church. What if she leaves the church and turns into someone you don’t like? (...) Stop fighting against the church.

Ok, Ok I get it. You are all right of course. I have probably been too pushy, and going on the defense isn't going to help. I felt like I was backing off a bit. I am sick of being guilt tripped, I currently don't have much say over the tithing thing, and I am in the closet with 2 kids and pretty much everybody else in the family, still wearing garments, going to church and filling two callings and I will have a TR interview coming up soon. If I could just walk away and be myself, then not giving a shite would be a lot easier! The meat hooks are set deep! So every time I capitulate on some aspect of the history or the current practices of the church it feels like being re-assimilated into the BORG again. So what is the response? No answer at all? Am I supposed to agree and go do my ministering on the next guilt trip?

I really do appreciate the responses, this place has been a life saver a few times. Sometimes i just need to come here and vent so my head doesn't explode.

[slavereeno]

Specific responses:

3. There's always room, no matter how little. The trick with apologetics is to focus on the narrow possibility, and then exclude enough counterevidence that believers can feel like it's wide while still feeling honest. At least she admits that the church's version is too rosy. Is that progress?

Maybe, it feels like one step forward two steps back, but to your point, there are a lot of things being discovered in these that were never taught before: multiple versions of the first vision, the fact that Alvin was supposed to go to get the plates with Joseph etc. It all so very inoculating though.

4. Believers need to see more examples of unbelievers doing good to cure them of this arrogant notion.

Yeah our ward is maybe an anomaly, lots of givers and almost no takers. The members of our ward really do make everybody else look bad, probably to the point of pride, ironically, but there you have it. "Look at how awesome we are compared to the non-mormons around us." I have heard variations on that theme quite a little bit.

[slavereeno]

I am glad there is NOM and that I can see all you are out there, but we are waaaay fewer and further between than any of us would like to admit. The church isn't going anywhere, with a few hundred billion dollars to throw around its hard to see a win for me in the end.

[alas]

It is hard and the guilt trips our loved ones send us on can be torture. And the things we advise are only the best guess from our experience hearing stories of different NOMs over the years. And seeing as it all comes from other people’s experience, it may or may not apply to you.

So, you know your wife better than we do and and you are the one who has to live with the consequences. So, think all suggestions through carefully and how it may or may not apply in your family.

But, sometimes going slow is cutting off the dogs tail one inch at a time, it just prolongs the pain. What I did was just announce that I would not be attending church and did not believe that the church is what it claims to be, and that it was not something I would ever go back on, as in permanent, and non negotiable. Then I let my husband consider if he wanted to even stay married to me. It wasn’t really abrupt, because he was aware that I had struggled with the church for E-V-E-R. But it was abrupt because I had never told him I had belief problems, just that I wished the church would talk about Christ more, and put more emphasis on grace and a God who loved unconditionally. So, in that way, it was very abrupt. It was a big risk, because my husband had expressed before that my not being a “good Mormon” was a deal breaker. My marriage survived, and in ways we are closer. We have found new hobbies together, and my husband is a every other week kind of Mormon, but still believes. He understands the God I believe in, who does not punish people for doing their best and he trusts me to do my best.

[IT_Veteran]

I am glad there is NOM and that I can see all you are out there, but we are waaaay fewer and further between than any of us would like to admit. The church isn't going anywhere, with a few hundred billion dollars to throw around its hard to see a win for me in the end. I guess I just need to get used to the shackles.

I hate this.

Personally, I still think there are more like us than we think. Maybe not out, but NOM.

To your earlier point though, about being stuck in a religion you actively disbelieve and closeted, that’s what you can control.

You need to respect where your wife is, and you should not expect to deconvert her. In the same vein though, she also has to respect where you are. She needs to understand that “Search, ponder, and pray” do not work for you. You have the power to determine how much you participate in the church, whether you wear garments, whether your kids know about your unbelief, etc. You may not be able to control the consequences, but you can control your own actions here.

Believe me though, I know how shitty and scary that is. I told Kalikala a few weeks ago that I came out to her about my unbelief because I’d reached a point where her leaving me over my unbelief, were it to happen, was something I had prepared myself to accept. She didn’t, and I’m grateful, but I was prepared for the fallout.

[jfro18]

I am glad there is NOM and that I can see all you are out there, but we are waaaay fewer and further between than any of us would like to admit. The church isn't going anywhere, with a few hundred billion dollars to throw around its hard to see a win for me in the end. I guess I just need to get used to the shackles.

I hate this.

One thing I've come to notice from reading stories on reddit, mormon stories, here, and other podcasts is that everyone ends up leaving for different reasons, and every mixed-faith relationship ends differently. It sucks because there's no cookie-cutter approach that works, and the retrenchment is so deep once the spouses realize you're out.

One thing I've been doing for myself is to look at apologetic pieces (church essays, apologist articles, FAIR, LDS Answers, etc) and then try to put notes down as to why it's wrong. I have been working on a website that has been doing just that (Hagoth has been kind enough to let me use his annotated essay material to incorporate as well), and while I don't know if my wife will ever read it, I think it's good because it presents the apologetic argument that is followed-up immediately with reasons why it's either misleading or straight-up wrong.

It might not work for your wife, but if you ever want to look at that just shoot me a message. I am hoping to have a basic site done soon, but it takes a while to get it all done so I've been going topic by topic.

For me personally, my wife always has an answer and then once I reply with stats or history to it she will fall back to "I don't care because I know what I feel." It sucks, but I'm just hoping over time she'll start to see the things I've pointed out and question them on her own. I highly doubt it, but that's all I can hope for. I am going to tell her once the website is done, but I'll also tell her that I won't send her anything and that if she ever wants to read it she needs to ask me when she's ready. Again, not a lot of hope there although the annotated essays/articles are pretty damning when you see just how bad the apologetics are these days.

Anyway - I think the other suggestions here are correct: You just need to be you. If that means you can't go anymore on Sundays, then that's what you need to do. If it means you go but cut some other parts out, I think that's OK too. When I stopped going I was so depressed because I didn't know if my wife could do it, what her family would say, how it would impact us... and while it still bothers me to no end, at least I get (most) freedom from that church now. It sucks that my wife is so retrenched that facts don't matter, but hopefully someday that will work itself out too. At least I'm free though, it's something.

Good luck and vent away here... when I come across something that I just want to bombard her with, I come here and read a bit or post or something to try and not run to her with everything as hard as that is.That seems to happen a lot.

[Cnsl1]

Not to be confused with this "Saints" by Orson Scott Card.

https://www.amazon.com/Saints-Novel-Ors ... 1596060867

[Kishkumen]

A spouse works to get their spouse out, and she/he finally leaves and instead of finding themselves closer, they find they have nothing in common and divorce. I have seen that more often than I have seen the couples who stay mixed faith divorce over the church./quote]

Bingo. Can confirm personally. We're still together but it is and has been extremely tough.

Just love her. Listen. Patience. Talk. Have fun. Enjoy life.

2 TBMs or 1 TBM/1Exmo or 2 ExMo can all be a happy couple combination.

[Corsair]

Not to be confused with this "Saints" by Orson Scott Card.

https://www.amazon.com/Saints-Novel-Ors ... 1596060867

I read this book many years ago. While Card is a fully believing Mormon, he has a good eye for some of the silliness of LDS culture.

[Red Ryder]

Don't fight against the church. Spend your time on something that actually is meaningful to you. You really need a new hobby. Post in the "Miscellaneous" section about that classic car you are restoring, or your new talent in playing guitar, or how you are learning to speak Italian, or a project with a 3D printer, or your progress in deadlifts, or that cool water feature you built in your backyard, or the insights you gained from reading "The Didache", or progress pictures of that three masted model schooner model you built. What is your hobby that brings fulfillment like your wife's religious hobby? The LDS church needs some stiff competition and having something you actually want to do instead is your next step.

This!

Slave, you're allowing yourself to get caught in the anger cycle. In order to stay sane you just have to not give a f&$@ about the church. I cycled through the same stuff you typed out with my wife for years! Finally I got tired and just learned to stop talking about it with her. I've disconnected from the church in every possible way with the exception of the 3 hour block. As much as I hate to say this, I've found joy in "the act of going to church" with my family from a tradition perspective. Don't get me wrong, I still 100% think the 3 hour block sucks ass and is like stepping into crazy land. But I've found happiness in the routine of getting up, getting dressed up, and sitting WITH my family for an hour. I found that if I focus on that realization, the time is tolerable. I'll rub the kids backs, snuggle next to the wife, clean emails off my phone, or observe the congregation from an anthropological perspective. I literally have no idea what is going on in SM because I just don't care! My mind is set to autopilot and I convince myself that my level of Mormonism is only 3 hours per week and then I can get back to whatever the hell I want to do or think. I've convinced myself that if I wasn't mormon, I would be something else like catholic or Presbyterian with the same traditions of church attendance sitting next to family for a short period of time once a week.

If you can reduce your Mormonism down to 3 hours a week without it bothering you then you can survive in a mixed faith marriage. That's only 1.79% of your weekly time! Less than 2%!

Last thing I'll say is this. Work on yourself and what makes you happy. You've been awakened! We only have limited time here on this planet so use your new found time and expanded mind to better yourself. As you do this, all that fear your wife is exuding will slowly dissipate!

[Ghost]

I read this book many years ago. While Card is a fully believing Mormon, he has a good eye for some of the silliness of LDS culture.

Have you read Saintspeak? It's like Ambrose Bierce's The Devil's Dictionary but for Mormonism.

[slavereeno]

Slave, you're allowing yourself to get caught in the anger cycle. In order to stay sane you just have to not give a f&$@ about the church. I cycled through the same stuff you typed out with my wife for years! Finally I got tired and just learned to stop talking about it with her.

Yes, I am becoming the bitter apostate, or at least I totally get why apostates become bitter.

I agree with what has been said by all here, its sound advice, but I keep getting sucked back in against my will. The only way to not get sucked back in is to act in all ways 100% the TBM I was before. The problem is i still need to hold a calling, wear garments, attend church each week, go to the temple (at least when a group is going), give/receive blessings, do ministering, FHE, know the articles in the Ensign, know all the conference talks and all the other mormony things for this to NOT be a constant topic of discussion or stress with family and friends.

[IT_Veteran]

Yes, I am becoming the bitter apostate, or at least I totally get why apostates become bitter.

I agree with what has been said by all here, its sound advice, but I keep getting sucked back in against my will. The only way to not get sucked back in is to act in all ways 100% the TBM I was before. The problem is i still need to hold a calling, wear polygamy pannies, attend church each week, go to the temple (at least when a group is going), give/receive blessings, do ministering, FHE, pay tithing, pay fast offerings, know the articles in the Ensign, know all the conference talks and all the other mormony things for this to NOT be a constant topic of discussion or stress. There is real terror about what others are going to think about me or our family as I try to fade into the woodwork.

I know those feelings well. I simply got to a point where that wasn't an option for me anymore. I realized that I had entered a deep depression and started wondering if it would be easier if I died. That was when I decided that even if this caused my wife to leave me (it didn't, luckily) that I couldn't continue like that anymore.

Only you know your family and what's best for all of you. Focus on your relationship with your wife and forget all of the other bullshit. Stop worrying about whether you leaving the church will be hard on your wife emotionally. It's bound to, but it's not the end of the world. All of these fears and feelings end up being temporary. I've found, at almost every step, that my worst fears were not realized. Most people handled it better than I thought. Some relationships have been damaged or become distant. The ones I care about I work to repair (parents, mostly). TBM friends will either still be there, or they'll move on. If they do, that's okay. I've realized most of the friends I've made in this life have moved on at some point or another. I have very few friendships that last beyond moving to a new job or a new region. The ones that do also survived this change.

We worry a lot, but many of those worries end up being unfounded. Or, even when they're realized, the impact is not as great as we imagined it would be. I posted a selfie on exmo sub for the first time this week. A few months ago I was worried about being found out, excommunicated, outed to family and friends. I took control back by telling them myself. I no longer fear excommunication because I'd resign if I could. Those two things removed any power the church has over me.

I've since had discussions and arguments on FB with TBM members of my wife's ward. I still see them at family events, and we are still cordial with one another. It's not as awkward as I thought it would be.

I guess my point is that yes, it is scary. But that doesn't mean it's not worth it when circumstances allow.