Trite and often pious TBM phrases

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Red Ryder
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Re: Trite and often pious TBM phrases

Post by Red Ryder » Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:17 pm

IT_Veteran wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:09 pm
Linked wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:34 am
IT_Veteran wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:33 pm
The church is perfect but the people aren’t.

Sure, there are things that are problematic but you just have to have faith.
The church may have faults because it's an organization run by men, but the gospel is perfect.

My parents pulled that one out when we talked about the MTC president and his victim(s), and how he received no church discipline and how the church even attacked his accuser by compiling a dossier to smear her. Somehow this phrase let their universe continue unaffected.
It's funny you say that. Here's the actual message I got from my dad after I publicly announced I'd left the church after the Joseph Bishop story broke and had been confirmed:
[IT_Veteran] if you keep airing your greviences against the Church for the actions of a few mortal and fallible men in a public forum that your children have access to I will predict three things. You will turn them against the Church. You will continue to break your Mother's heart. You will make me understand more fully exactly how Alma and Mosiah felt.
Your Mother has been crying non-stop since your last post. Please use restraint and realize that the Church is run by men, subject to the temptations of the world, not perfect beings.
I love to replace Book of Mormon people with other fictional characters.

"You will make me understand more fully exactly how Fred Flintstone and Barney Rubble felt."
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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IT_Veteran
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Re: Trite and often pious TBM phrases

Post by IT_Veteran » Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:41 pm

Linked wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:09 pm
Man, your FIL is an a&$hole. "Poor me and your mother, you are destroying us just so you can live in reality. If you don't stop it will really hurt us, just lie to yourself like we do you big jerk."
To be clear, this one wasn't my FIL. This was my dad after my post about Joseph Bishop and the church's abhorrent initial response to it. This isn't the whole post, but I think this is mostly what he and my mom objected to from it:
Until this week I was content to keep pretending, among most of you, that I was still in the church. For those of you that are in my ward, I’m sure I would have just seemed to have become inactive. This week some prett terrible revelations about the church failing to protect young missionaries in the MTC from a sexual predator, who also happened to be the MTC president, and subsequently trying to discredit his accuser when she went public forced my hand.

I will no longer be silent. I will no longer pretend for anyone that I am associated with a church that would treat its young people, trying to serve faithfully, with such disregard in order to protect the name of the church.
Unfortunately, I think my dad's response had the desired effect. Outside of Reddit, this forum, and some closed FB groups, I refrain from talking about the church most of the time. The only exception so far has been a discussion around the harm caused by the church to LGBTQ+ people. Other than that, I've been silent. The things I do share I remove them, my sister, and my in-laws from the visibility on the post.
Red Ryder wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:17 pm
I love to replace Book of Mormon people with other fictional characters.
Oh man, I love this so much.

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Linked
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Re: Trite and often pious TBM phrases

Post by Linked » Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:55 pm

IT_Veteran wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:41 pm
Linked wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:09 pm
Man, your FIL is an a&$hole. "Poor me and your mother, you are destroying us just so you can live in reality. If you don't stop it will really hurt us, just lie to yourself like we do you big jerk."
To be clear, this one wasn't my FIL. This was my dad after my post about Joseph Bishop and the church's abhorrent initial response to it. This isn't the whole post, but I think this is mostly what he and my mom objected to from it:
Until this week I was content to keep pretending, among most of you, that I was still in the church. For those of you that are in my ward, I’m sure I would have just seemed to have become inactive. This week some prett terrible revelations about the church failing to protect young missionaries in the MTC from a sexual predator, who also happened to be the MTC president, and subsequently trying to discredit his accuser when she went public forced my hand.

I will no longer be silent. I will no longer pretend for anyone that I am associated with a church that would treat its young people, trying to serve faithfully, with such disregard in order to protect the name of the church.
Unfortunately, I think my dad's response had the desired effect. Outside of Reddit, this forum, and some closed FB groups, I refrain from talking about the church most of the time. The only exception so far has been a discussion around the harm caused by the church to LGBTQ+ people. Other than that, I've been silent. The things I do share I remove them, my sister, and my in-laws from the visibility on the post.
Sorry, reading comprehension is hard. This is a tough response to get from your father. Your post makes it clear that you are now part of the out group and have beef with the in group, and for mormons that is the worst thing a person can be. Has your father been able to see past your out groupness yet?

It's a tough balance with how open to be about negative church things. I have been even less open than you. If you are totally open about everything the church does that you feel is wrong you will alienate every TBM and plenty of NOMs. So self preservation dictates you should be tactical about what you share. They also prefer you to say less. And common courtesy avoids throwing offensive things around (we trained ourselves to ignore common courtesy as gospel-sharing church members, it's nice to be able to have some now). So it's often the easiest and most prudent option. But the church does a lot of harm, and ignoring it feels wrong and cowardly, and unlikely to bring about the desired changes to the church. What a conundrum.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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IT_Veteran
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Re: Trite and often pious TBM phrases

Post by IT_Veteran » Wed Jun 27, 2018 4:24 pm

Linked wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:55 pm
Sorry, reading comprehension is hard. This is a tough response to get from your father. Your post makes it clear that you are now part of the out group and have beef with the in group, and for mormons that is the worst thing a person can be. Has your father been able to see past your out groupness yet?
Kind of, I guess? We're at a point where we don't talk about it. I've been to their house a couple times since then, we just ignore it as if nothing happened. That was the week before GC and we were at their house for that. We didn't even acknowledge it, I just went to Starbucks during GC sessions (both mornings) and was elsewhere for the afternoon sessions. We dropped our kids off there to go out of town and they encouraged the kids to stay in the church and said they needed, more than ever, to continue in faith and be good examples. My mom testified to them that I'd be back to church someday. That shit pissed me off more than anything else. But still we don't talk about it.

Mom texted last night to ask if she and dad can come stay for a weekend. Evidently wife and kids are going there while I'm away at military training, and then parents are coming here the first weekend in August.

I haven't figured out yet if they're seeking more contact because they have more time (mom was taking care of her sister who is now in a nursing home full-time), because they're worried about setting good examples for the kids, or if they're on a mission to determine how devoted everyone else is to the cause. Probably some mix of all three, if I'm being honest.

I'm at a point right now though where I don't even have photographs myself taken with coffee or alcohol. If somebody wants a picture of me with the group (various get togethers) I'll hide my drink first.

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moksha
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Re: Trite and often pious TBM phrases

Post by moksha » Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:48 pm

Q - Guy walks into a singles bar and looks around. So many hot women that he prays for moisture. Being unable to see if he is wearing sacred underwear, are there any clues as to whether he is Mormon?

A - Check to see if he has ordered milk or a soft drink.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Linked
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Re: Trite and often pious TBM phrases

Post by Linked » Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:06 am

IT_Veteran wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 4:24 pm
Kind of, I guess? We're at a point where we don't talk about it. I've been to their house a couple times since then, we just ignore it as if nothing happened. That was the week before GC and we were at their house for that. We didn't even acknowledge it, I just went to Starbucks during GC sessions (both mornings) and was elsewhere for the afternoon sessions. We dropped our kids off there to go out of town and they encouraged the kids to stay in the church and said they needed, more than ever, to continue in faith and be good examples. My mom testified to them that I'd be back to church someday. That shit pissed me off more than anything else. But still we don't talk about it.

Mom texted last night to ask if she and dad can come stay for a weekend. Evidently wife and kids are going there while I'm away at military training, and then parents are coming here the first weekend in August.

I haven't figured out yet if they're seeking more contact because they have more time (mom was taking care of her sister who is now in a nursing home full-time), because they're worried about setting good examples for the kids, or if they're on a mission to determine how devoted everyone else is to the cause. Probably some mix of all three, if I'm being honest.

I'm at a point right now though where I don't even have photographs myself taken with coffee or alcohol. If somebody wants a picture of me with the group (various get togethers) I'll hide my drink first.
Your parents discussion with your children is totally inappropriate. They are tying your value to your church attendance and adherence and trying to get your kids to do the same. That's got to stop. I understand where they are coming from but they need to get their heads out of lala land and get with the real world on what their role is in your children's lives.

I don't know your parents, but I would guess they have mixed motives for seeking more contact. Most grandparents want to spend time with their kids and grand kids no matter what. But I'm sure they want to "save" their family too.

It's frustrating to have to hide your self, but it's the cost of not rocking the mormon relationship boat. It sucks.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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Re: Trite and often pious TBM phrases

Post by IT_Veteran » Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:24 am

Linked wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:06 am
Your parents discussion with your children is totally inappropriate. They are tying your value to your church attendance and adherence and trying to get your kids to do the same. That's got to stop. I understand where they are coming from but they need to get their heads out of lala land and get with the real world on what their role is in your children's lives.

I don't know your parents, but I would guess they have mixed motives for seeking more contact. Most grandparents want to spend time with their kids and grand kids no matter what. But I'm sure they want to "save" their family too.

It's frustrating to have to hide your self, but it's the cost of not rocking the mormon relationship boat. It sucks.
100% agree. I just haven't figured out how to deal with it yet, other than not leaving the kids with them when we're not there. It'll be interesting to see how they react to things like my 17yo drinking coffee and not attending church with them next month when they're here.

Also interesting is how their priorities have changed. It's hard to determine their actual motives here, but I've felt for years like our kids were a second priority to my (exmo) brother's kids. When my brother lived 2 1/2 hours away from them, my parents would often go visit them for a weekend or for holidays. We never felt excluded, they just spent a lot more time over there. I assumed because it was an hour and a half closer. To be fair, we (historically) go to their house 6 or 7 times per year for a weekend. Now that my brother has moved across the country, they save money all year to go visit them at Christmas. Last year was the year we typically go to my parents' house for Christmas (every third year) but they flew to the east coast, so we did Christmas with two days early. I always felt like they spent additional time with my brother and his family because they were exmo/nevermo and my parents want to bring them back to the church.

His wife is 1st generation American of Chinese descent and has never participated in religion of any kind, so far as I know. As a result, she's been mildly interested in our family's belief system. I've talked to her and she has no intention of converting, but is truly just curious about what we all believe so she can better understand everyone. She's also just generally kind and sweet, so will never tell anyone that she's not interested in their religion. As a result, they still see her, and possibly the kids (his oldest, now six, has been to church with my parents a few times) as the best way to bring them all back to church.

Now that I'm on the outs with the church, there's a renewed interest in my family it seems. They ask us to bring the kids more frequently. They reached out for the first time in a long time to ask if they could come visit us.

I'll allow the possibility that I'm reading too much into this and they just try to balance time spent with everyone. I just know that's how it feels to me. I love my parents but damn if they aren't doing everything they can to keep all the kids in the boat.

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Linked
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Re: Trite and often pious TBM phrases

Post by Linked » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:08 pm

IT_Veteran wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:24 am
100% agree. I just haven't figured out how to deal with it yet, other than not leaving the kids with them when we're not there. It'll be interesting to see how they react to things like my 17yo drinking coffee and not attending church with them next month when they're here.
That will be interesting. You may want to get ahead of that one by letting your parents know it will be happening and you expect them not to bring it up with your kid so your 17yo doesn't have to take the brunt of a grandparent meltdown or passionate lecture. It shouldn't be something that you have to do, but it's the lot we were given in life.
IT_Veteran wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:24 am
Also interesting is how their priorities have changed. It's hard to determine their actual motives here, but I've felt for years like our kids were a second priority to my (exmo) brother's kids. When my brother lived 2 1/2 hours away from them, my parents would often go visit them for a weekend or for holidays. We never felt excluded, they just spent a lot more time over there. I assumed because it was an hour and a half closer. To be fair, we (historically) go to their house 6 or 7 times per year for a weekend. Now that my brother has moved across the country, they save money all year to go visit them at Christmas. Last year was the year we typically go to my parents' house for Christmas (every third year) but they flew to the east coast, so we did Christmas with two days early. I always felt like they spent additional time with my brother and his family because they were exmo/nevermo and my parents want to bring them back to the church.

His wife is 1st generation American of Chinese descent and has never participated in religion of any kind, so far as I know. As a result, she's been mildly interested in our family's belief system. I've talked to her and she has no intention of converting, but is truly just curious about what we all believe so she can better understand everyone. She's also just generally kind and sweet, so will never tell anyone that she's not interested in their religion. As a result, they still see her, and possibly the kids (his oldest, now six, has been to church with my parents a few times) as the best way to bring them all back to church.

Now that I'm on the outs with the church, there's a renewed interest in my family it seems. They ask us to bring the kids more frequently. They reached out for the first time in a long time to ask if they could come visit us.

I'll allow the possibility that I'm reading too much into this and they just try to balance time spent with everyone. I just know that's how it feels to me. I love my parents but damn if they aren't doing everything they can to keep all the kids in the boat.
I've wondered the same thing with my parents, it seems like they make more of an effort to come to my kids sports than they used to since I told them I'm a non-believer. With them it has been nice to have them around more, regardless of the motive. They haven't been pushy with religion that I have seen.

It sounds like your parents may think the only thing that is valuable is getting their family to believe in mormonism and follow it. So they are trying their best to increase how valuable their family is. People can value whatever they want, the problem here is that your parents are letting it affect their relationships and how they treat people. I wonder if focusing on the great things you and members of your family is doing that you are proud of might help your parents see the value that you do. Maybe even have a talk about how your changing beliefs have made belief in the mormon church of neutral or even negative value and the things that you do find important now. They may never agree with you, but maybe they can understand you and have some level of respect for your new beliefs.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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Re: Trite and often pious TBM phrases

Post by RubinHighlander » Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:45 pm

It's interesting if you read the Rameumptom prayer, how many parallels there are to current TBM prayers from the pulpit.
16 Holy God, we believe that thou hast separated us from our brethren; and we do not believe in the tradition of our brethren, which was handed down to them by the childishness of their fathers; but we believe that thou hast elected us to be thy holy children; and also thou hast made it known unto us that there shall be no Christ.
17 But thou art the same yesterday, today, and forever; and thou hast elected us that we shall be saved, whilst all around us are elected to be cast by thy wrath down to hell; for the which holiness, O God, we thank thee; and we also thank thee that thou hast elected us, that we may not be led away after the foolish traditions of our brethren, which doth bind them down to a belief of Christ, which doth lead their hearts to wander far from thee, our God.
18 And again we thank thee, O God, that we are a chosen and a holy people. Amen.
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
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IT_Veteran
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Re: Trite and often pious TBM phrases

Post by IT_Veteran » Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:53 pm

Linked wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:08 pm
IT_Veteran wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:24 am
100% agree. I just haven't figured out how to deal with it yet, other than not leaving the kids with them when we're not there. It'll be interesting to see how they react to things like my 17yo drinking coffee and not attending church with them next month when they're here.
That will be interesting. You may want to get ahead of that one by letting your parents know it will be happening and you expect them not to bring it up with your kid so your 17yo doesn't have to take the brunt of a grandparent meltdown or passionate lecture. It shouldn't be something that you have to do, but it's the lot we were given in life.

<SNIP>

Maybe even have a talk about how your changing beliefs have made belief in the mormon church of neutral or even negative value and the things that you do find important now. They may never agree with you, but maybe they can understand you and have some level of respect for your new beliefs.
He actually asked my wife to let her parents know because he didn't want to deal with that particular conversation, which she did. He didn't tell my parents yet, but he said he felt okay letting them know. We're kind of letting him decide when/where to tell people and helping out where he asks.

As for the talk with parents, I try to just show stuff on FB of us being happy and together. Any time I bring up or criticize the church in any way, my mom breaks out the "simple woman of faith" trope. She can't be bothered to look at it too deeply, she just believes. Quite honestly, it's probably healthiest for her to continue in that belief. I just need her not to push it onto my kids.

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2bizE
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Re: Trite and often pious TBM phrases

Post by 2bizE » Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:29 am

Red Ryder wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:17 pm
IT_Veteran wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:09 pm
Linked wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:34 am


The church may have faults because it's an organization run by men, but the gospel is perfect.

My parents pulled that one out when we talked about the MTC president and his victim(s), and how he received no church discipline and how the church even attacked his accuser by compiling a dossier to smear her. Somehow this phrase let their universe continue unaffected.
It's funny you say that. Here's the actual message I got from my dad after I publicly announced I'd left the church after the Joseph Bishop story broke and had been confirmed:
[IT_Veteran] if you keep airing your greviences against the Church for the actions of a few mortal and fallible men in a public forum that your children have access to I will predict three things. You will turn them against the Church. You will continue to break your Mother's heart. You will make me understand more fully exactly how Alma and Mosiah felt.
Your Mother has been crying non-stop since your last post. Please use restraint and realize that the Church is run by men, subject to the temptations of the world, not perfect beings.
I love to replace Book of Mormon people with other fictional characters.

"You will make me understand more fully exactly how Fred Flintstone and Barney Rubble felt."
Have you ever heard the story of Ammon, Paul Bunyan, and the sons of Mosiah?
~2bizE

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Re: Trite and often pious TBM phrases

Post by IT_Veteran » Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:00 am

2bizE wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:29 am
Have you ever heard the story of Ammon, Paul Bunyan, and the sons of Mosiah?
:D :D

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slk
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Re: Trite and often pious TBM phrases

Post by slk » Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:13 am

Glad to know some fellow NOMers were at the airshow on Sunday. Damn, that was a long wait before the thunderbirds! We decided to leave and had to catch it on the bus ride out.

Pious remarks...well let's see. Not really pious but a subtle remark my dad uses really pisses me off. He always includes "he's not active" like it's absolutely necessary to include it. Even when he is telling me about someone I don't even know, I'll hear, "he's not active." I've actually tried to correct him on this and say "dad, I don't care, continue on with the story." Maybe I need to start using "he IS active" when talking to my dad but give a confused look like...I don't know how that person could still be active.

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slavereeno
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Re: Trite and often pious TBM phrases

Post by slavereeno » Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:45 pm

any phrase that includes "the doctrine"
"We were blessed because we paid our tithing"
"Tender Mercy"
"Good thing we have our food storage"

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Re: Trite and often pious TBM phrases

Post by RubinHighlander » Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:28 am

slavereeno wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:45 pm
any phrase that includes "the doctrine"
"We were blessed because we paid our tithing"
"Tender Mercy"
"Good thing we have our food storage"
Yes, the food storage one and the tithing one, it just wreaks of ramiumptom!
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
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Re: Trite and often pious TBM phrases

Post by RubinHighlander » Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:30 am

slk wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:13 am
Glad to know some fellow NOMers were at the airshow on Sunday. Damn, that was a long wait before the thunderbirds! We decided to leave and had to catch it on the bus ride out.

Pious remarks...well let's see. Not really pious but a subtle remark my dad uses really pisses me off. He always includes "he's not active" like it's absolutely necessary to include it. Even when he is telling me about someone I don't even know, I'll hear, "he's not active." I've actually tried to correct him on this and say "dad, I don't care, continue on with the story." Maybe I need to start using "he IS active" when talking to my dad but give a confused look like...I don't know how that person could still be active.
Remember when it was common to say someone was "inactive"? Then they decided that wasn't COBlishly correct anymore and changed it to "less active". Whatever bish! The dude does not want to be bothered, so let's stop treating him like a lost child and let him make his own adult decisions!
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE

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Re: Trite and often pious TBM phrases

Post by BriansThoughtMirror » Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:57 pm

Dang, I wanted to go to the air show, but I was at a Family Reunion... Was it awesome?
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slk
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Re: Trite and often pious TBM phrases

Post by slk » Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:54 am

The air show was great. As stated, we were there on Sunday...so much fewer people. OP was spoiled and had VIP seating. The ending was pretty lame. They announced that the Thunderbirds would actually perform a little early but apparently they had complications and they ended up flying much later. I would say hundreds of people were already exiting or had already left before they hit the air. Still, much much better than sitting somewhere else on a beautiful summer afternoon.

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Re: Trite and often pious TBM phrases

Post by RubinHighlander » Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:10 am

slk wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:54 am
The air show was great. As stated, we were there on Sunday...so much fewer people. OP was spoiled and had VIP seating. The ending was pretty lame. They announced that the Thunderbirds would actually perform a little early but apparently they had complications and they ended up flying much later. I would say hundreds of people were already exiting or had already left before they hit the air. Still, much much better than sitting somewhere else on a beautiful summer afternoon.
BriansThoughtMirror wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:57 pm
Dang, I wanted to go to the air show, but I was at a Family Reunion... Was it awesome?
The VIP seating and eating definitely made it more awesome. The delay on the Thunderbirds was a bit of a bummer, but they stil made it work with five planes. I think for me the highlight was seeing the new F35s - the first time they were allowed to participate in an airshow. I still need to go through and process my photos from that day. If I got any good ones I'll post them up on a shared gdrive and post a link here.
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE

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Re: Trite and often pious TBM phrases

Post by BriansThoughtMirror » Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:58 am

Man, I'll have to find a way to go next time! This reminds me of a haiku:

Sunlight hides behind
The curtains of the chapel
The outdoors are true

-Don Bagley
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