Are Mission Presidents feeling the heat?

This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
User avatar
Unendowed
Posts: 63
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 7:06 am

Are Mission Presidents feeling the heat?

Post by Unendowed » Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:58 am

My son is serving a mission in the US. He informed us that his mission was visited by an area authority (didn't get the name) and this area authority basically laid into the missionaries for their lack of obedience and faith. Soon after that visit the MP made a new rule that companionships could only be with each other and not with any other companionships. For example on p-pay groups of missionaries would get together and play basketball or just hang out together. This is no longer allowed. Now they just sit in their apartments and are bored. Not exactly great for moral.

Now I heard that in a mission in New York, where a friend of my son is serving, has a new MP and within two weeks he demoted all the district and zone leaders as well as the APs and has even sent a few of them hone. My son's friend was sent home but can return in 6 months. I don't know what exactly went on but it seems like this MP is taking some drastic measures.

What's going on with these guys? Is the COB putting heat on these guys to the point they are making these drastic moves. Because heaven knows if the church isn't growing it must be the missionaries fault. What a load of crap! When will they learn it's the product that sucks not the salesmen?

User avatar
FiveFingerMnemonic
Posts: 1484
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:50 pm
Contact:

Re: Are Mission Presidents feeling the heat?

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:56 pm

A recently returned sister missionary from Canada spoke in our ward a few weeks ago and said she had no baptisms and only worked with inactives. I was amazed that Canada would be so difficult for proselytizing.

User avatar
Linked
Posts: 1533
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 4:04 pm

Re: Are Mission Presidents feeling the heat?

Post by Linked » Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:03 pm

The church leadership has always left room for the lack of the progression of the work of baptizing the world to be the members and missionaries fault. I haven't seen such a direct blame at the missionaries or draconian mission policies though, and my mission was relatively strict.

As for poor baptizing missions, that's definitely a trend. The growth in 2016 is about half what it was when I was a missionary 15 years ago, and we didn't do a ton of baptizing then in Japan. Different places and anecdotal, but the church appears to be struggling in the 1st world. Thanks Google.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

User avatar
Red Ryder
Posts: 4144
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 5:14 pm

Re: Are Mission Presidents feeling the heat?

Post by Red Ryder » Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:16 pm

One way to look at this is to look at Lowes Home Improvement. The company has been doing relatively well in the past but operating margins have been slipping over recent years. The company got a new CEO at the end of May. Fast forward a few weeks later and the new CEO has already shaken up the management team and realigned some critical and non critical policies and procedures. Some execs are fired, others are repurposed, and the company continues to re-invent itself while chasing market share, earnings, and competitiveness.

The mission experience is the same way but with a failing product (which really needs to be a post of it's own). 99% of mission presidents are business owners and type A guys who think they can come in and shake things up and manage their mission the same way they manage a business. Only they have limited tools to increase sales (because the product is bad). So they start blaming missionaries for lack of obedience and squeeze the life and joy out of the missionary. In turn this creates anxiety and depression that's reflected in their face and voice as well as attitude of the missionary. Thus the ROBOTIC missionary is born! They come across desperate and weird. Normal people pick up on this. Who wants to listen to missionaries when they look and sound church broke and robotic? Suddenly a cycle is established.

New Mission President comes in. Convert baptisms decline. Area Authority flexes his middle management muscles. Policy and rule changes are implemented. Missionaries are squeezed. Some are collateral damage and go home early. The rest survive until they matriculate out and go home. New mission president comes in. Convert baptisms decline. Area Authority flexes his priesthood...

What the church needs the most right now is a missionary force of vibrant youth who are happy and willing to share their beliefs in a vibrant church that provides structure with freedom to live accordingly. Get rid of the uniform and its cult of obedience. Let the kids be kids while on their missions doing service as well as getting out among the people and talking with two degrees of normalcy.

It's that obvious!

Forget about Google. Who wants to join a weird church?

Convert baptisms decline...

The cycle continues....
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

User avatar
2bizE
Posts: 2405
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 9:33 pm

Re: Are Mission Presidents feeling the heat?

Post by 2bizE » Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:39 pm

I like the Lowes example, except it is important to remember that missionaries are volunteers paying their own way. I remember on my mission having meetings with the MP and GAs and they would try to fire us up like an Amway meeting to get the world baptized. There seems to be a growing trend over the past decade for MPs and GAs to criticize the missionaries and shame them for not being exactly obedient. This exact obedience fad the GAs are pushing runs contrary to the atonement of Christ.
If i were a missionary getting shamed by my MP or GA, i would quit. These are not high paid professionals, I'm talking about the missionaries not the GAs. They are unpaid volunteers. They didnt sign up for this.
~2bizE

User avatar
John G.
Posts: 108
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:20 pm
Contact:

Re: Are Mission Presidents feeling the heat?

Post by John G. » Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:55 pm

I’m not sure how new this type of thing is. On my mission, in the 90’s, we had a GA come for a mission conference and he did the drill sergeant routine. Told us, in a very unfriendly way, that we needed to work harder.

I specifically remember him saying that we shouldn’t be talking about how much weight we gained on our mission, but instead how much we lose because we were working so hard.

At the time, I remember thinking that I’d never heard anyone talking about gaining weight on their mission. We were already tracking 4-5 hours a day. I know for sure I never gained any weight on my mission!
"If your children are taught untruths on evolution in the public schools or even in our Church schools, provide them with a copy of President Joseph Fielding Smith's excellent rebuttal in his book Man, His Origin and Destiny."

Ezra Taft Benson

User avatar
slk
Posts: 123
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 8:51 am

Re: Are Mission Presidents feeling the heat?

Post by slk » Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:40 pm

Missionary success and missionary morale will never improve until TSCC admits that they're just like all the other religions out there. Well, get rid of the weirdness like the temples also but there really is nothing left after that. They will have to revamp once the mish #s drop to about 40K.

User avatar
didyoumythme
Posts: 190
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2016 3:26 pm

Re: Are Mission Presidents feeling the heat?

Post by didyoumythme » Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:22 pm

This sounds like standard operating procedure for missions. Leadership (including area authorities, mission presidents, APs, zone leaders, district leaders etc.) always lay into the missionaries about perfect obedience. It is the greatest and longest guilt trip a person can experience. I have heard about plenty of missions that ban group gatherings of missionaries. They don't want everyone getting too rowdy/friendly/flirty with each other.

I don't think this is a sign of anything, just more pressure for not selling more of a bad product like red ryder said.
When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease being honest, or cease being mistaken. - Anonymous

User avatar
Archimedes
Posts: 244
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:22 am

Re: Are Mission Presidents feeling the heat?

Post by Archimedes » Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:35 pm

This sort of thing happened in my mission in the early 80s. I would guess the Lowes analogy has held true, at least as far back as that.

I think Mission Presidents put a lot of pressure on themselves. Most of them are movers and shakers who would like to move up into Middle Management, hard to get a promotion like that without showing Results in the mission field.

Oh, yea, Results are not measured by the enhanced self esteem or growth of the work force. The [all volunteer] workers are merely a means to an end.
"She never loved you; she loved the church, her one true love. She used you to marry the church by proxy."

-- unknown reddit poster

User avatar
moksha
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:22 am

Re: Are Mission Presidents feeling the heat?

Post by moksha » Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:23 pm

Unendowed wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:58 am
Now I heard that in a mission in New York, where a friend of my son is serving, has a new MP and within two weeks he demoted all the district and zone leaders as well as the APs and has even sent a few of them home. My son's friend was sent home but can return in 6 months. I don't know what exactly went on but it seems like this MP is taking some drastic measures.
This almost sounds Trumpian: Destroying the system from within. If you can demoralize the troops sufficiently, then you can decrease the burden of having so many missionaries in the field.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

User avatar
Just This Guy
Posts: 1514
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:30 pm
Location: Almost Heaven

Re: Are Mission Presidents feeling the heat?

Post by Just This Guy » Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:18 am

Unendowed wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:58 am
Now I heard that in a mission in New York, where a friend of my son is serving, has a new MP and within two weeks he demoted all the district and zone leaders as well as the APs and has even sent a few of them hone. My son's friend was sent home but can return in 6 months. I don't know what exactly went on but it seems like this MP is taking some drastic measures.

That happened on my mission. A new MP came in and ran with basically the previous leadership for about 6 months. A that point, due to several factors, a large part of the leadership go removed and replaced. He also changed dissolved all districts*. For the most part, the replacements were much better than the previous leadership. I was not sad to see the old crew go.


*As small as the mission was geographically, it didn't really make sense to have the extra layer of management.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

User avatar
Corsair
Posts: 3080
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:58 am
Location: Phoenix

Re: Are Mission Presidents feeling the heat?

Post by Corsair » Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:08 am

Unendowed wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:58 am
Soon after that visit the MP made a new rule that companionships could only be with each other and not with any other companionships. For example on p-pay groups of missionaries would get together and play basketball or just hang out together. This is no longer allowed. Now they just sit in their apartments and are bored. Not exactly great for moral.
This puts dramatic burdens on the morale and spirit of missionaries. I was starved for reasonable social interaction my whole mission. P-Day was sacred to me and having these new rules would have only made things worse.

User avatar
Unendowed
Posts: 63
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 7:06 am

Re: Are Mission Presidents feeling the heat?

Post by Unendowed » Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:59 am

Corsair wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:08 am
Unendowed wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:58 am
Soon after that visit the MP made a new rule that companionships could only be with each other and not with any other companionships. For example on p-pay groups of missionaries would get together and play basketball or just hang out together. This is no longer allowed. Now they just sit in their apartments and are bored. Not exactly great for moral.
This puts dramatic burdens on the morale and spirit of missionaries. I was starved for reasonable social interaction my whole mission. P-Day was sacred to me and having these new rules would have only made things worse.
My son tries to be positive about it but I can sense his anguish about the new rule. Most of his best friends in the mission are not his companions. I don't know if the rule is meant to be punishment or just the fact that when groups of 18 to 21 year olds get together they can get into "trouble." I just hate that these technically adults are not treated as adults. The mission is controlling enough without having to be told who you can spend your free time with.

User avatar
Archimedes
Posts: 244
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:22 am

Re: Are Mission Presidents feeling the heat?

Post by Archimedes » Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:28 pm

As a missionary there is no such thing as free time. The church owns all that.
"She never loved you; she loved the church, her one true love. She used you to marry the church by proxy."

-- unknown reddit poster

Anon70
Posts: 606
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:56 pm

Re: Are Mission Presidents feeling the heat?

Post by Anon70 » Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:23 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:16 pm
What the church needs the most right now is a missionary force of vibrant youth who are happy and willing to share their beliefs in a vibrant church that provides structure with freedom to live accordingly. Get rid of the uniform and its cult of obedience. Let the kids be kids while on their missions doing service as well as getting out among the people and talking with two degrees of normalcy.
It's that obvious!
This is so great. Too bad you're not in charge! My nieces belong to a different religion and they would do "mission trips" and my parents use to disparage them because they were short--weeks to months-- and they went in regular clothes, kept their phones and could be themselves. They just served--no proselyting. I'd love for my kids to do something like that!

User avatar
mooseman
Posts: 153
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 2:30 pm

Re: Are Mission Presidents feeling the heat?

Post by mooseman » Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:21 am

Archimedes wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:28 pm
As a missionary there is no such thing as free time. The church owns all that.
Yup. I remember being told not to think of it as pday, but preparation TIME. Time to clean, do laundry, shop, write home...by 4 pm you should be back out tracking.
And it's not just as missionaries-- after we got married i was repeatedly reminded i had covenanted all i had to the lord's kingdom; so it pto was available and there was a Wednesday afternoon canning assignment, or someone moving in just as you get off work..... that time belongs to the church.
It's frustrating to see the last resort in a discussion of facts be: I disregard those facts because of my faith. Why even talk about facts if the last resort is to put faith above all facts that are contrary to your faith?

User avatar
slavereeno
Posts: 1247
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:30 am
Location: QC, AZ

Re: Are Mission Presidents feeling the heat?

Post by slavereeno » Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:09 am

Archimedes wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:28 pm
As a missionary there is no such thing as free time. The church owns all that.
I hate this, my kid is going bonkers on his mish
mooseman wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:21 am
so if pto was available and there was a Wednesday afternoon canning assignment, or someone moving in just as you get off work..... that time belongs to the church.
I felt this way all the time, trying to change my thought process. I still feel guilty when I am trying to enjoy some free time.

User avatar
No Tof
Posts: 382
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2016 8:54 am

Re: Are Mission Presidents feeling the heat?

Post by No Tof » Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:38 am

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:56 pm
A recently returned sister missionary from Canada spoke in our ward a few weeks ago and said she had no baptisms and only worked with inactives. I was amazed that Canada would be so difficult for proselytizing.
I would venture to say Canada is becoming more and more secular. (thank goddess)
What with our long standing legalized medical cannabis status which soon will include legal recreational use :D , I would be surprised if Utah doesn't decide to disown us completely.

As to the state of the union with regards to missionary work, I can see a definite trend from the old days when I was in Japan, and felt like a celebrity with few rules and lots of fun, to todays lock step marching model where the lucky ones go home early and have a chance to recover.

Signs of the times brothers and sisters.
Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and right doing, there is a field. I'll meet you there.
Rumi

User avatar
blazerb
Posts: 1614
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:35 pm

Re: Are Mission Presidents feeling the heat?

Post by blazerb » Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:26 pm

Anon70 wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:23 pm
Red Ryder wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:16 pm
What the church needs the most right now is a missionary force of vibrant youth who are happy and willing to share their beliefs in a vibrant church that provides structure with freedom to live accordingly. Get rid of the uniform and its cult of obedience. Let the kids be kids while on their missions doing service as well as getting out among the people and talking with two degrees of normalcy.
It's that obvious!
This is so great. Too bad you're not in charge! My nieces belong to a different religion and they would do "mission trips" and my parents use to disparage them because they were short--weeks to months-- and they went in regular clothes, kept their phones and could be themselves. They just served--no proselyting. I'd love for my kids to do something like that!
I think a mistake was made a long time ago about what it was that drew people to the church. Church leaders thought that people were drawn by doctrine or the spirituality of the missionaries. I'm pretty sure that most of the people I taught on my mission just wanted a nice social atmosphere in an optimistic, happy church.

I'm sensing panic in the leadership over the drop in converts. It's causing more mistakes. The most successful missionaries on my mission were the most relaxed. Some of them kept the rules, some did not.

I imagine that leaders are trying to deflect blame for the nonexistent growth in the church. Jacob in the BofM taught that he needed to be direct about the sins of the people in order to keep his garments clean. Lack of converts can be laid at the feet of the missionaries. Unless the MP beats them up for it, he may be afraid that someone could lay the blame on him, like a Jacob in reverse. The area authority or GA needs to likewise beat up on those below him in order to stay blameless. All of this just creates a toxic environment that results in a large fraction of missionaries coming home for emotional reasons. I feel so bad for what these missionaries are put through.

User avatar
Spicy McHaggis
Posts: 286
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 10:14 pm

Re: Are Mission Presidents feeling the heat?

Post by Spicy McHaggis » Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:25 pm

My son is trying to decide if he should go on a mission.

If he does go I will sign off my weekly emails with something like this:

"You are an adult and you are a volunteer, you can do whatever you want. Make sure you are treated with respect".

I would share those thoughts with his mission pres as well.

A member of my family is currently a MP. He and his wife were firmly in the Mor-Cor bubble but they are in a big city now, surrounded by liberals, atheists and people of other races. I'm not entirely sure but I think they are finally learning that a liberal atheist of another race is just as kind and loving as a mormon trump voter in their hometown. He's a pretty hard-core guy, I'm not sure but I think the MP thing is making him more open minded. I hope so anyway.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 40 guests