Update. Why I am angry with victims (myself)

[alas]

Edited to explain, that when a rape victim gets triggered, they may feel some irrational feelings, or direct anger in incorrect ways. I am not angry at Courtney, but at the people who taught her she has no right to speak up for herself.

Her situation just triggered an old situation where I felt helpless and had been taught I had no right to stand up for myself and ended up very angry at myself because I could not stand up for myself on smaller things, so that gave a man the idea that I was a good victim and later, he caught me alone and raped me.

I am not angry at Courtney, but at the situation and the people who taught her to keep sweet.

Back to original post.

I said I was finished ranting, but I have been thinking about why I am angry with what’s her face who didn’t stand up to Robert Kirby.

The Mormon church teaches women to respect priesthood=men. The church teaches us to be sweet and feminine and that it is not only unladylike like but a sin to be angry. That is screwed up.

Rape culture not only teaches women that rape is their own damn fault, because of what they wear or how they act, but mostly just because they are worthless females. And rape culture also teaches that it is bad to tell about being raped or to tell about sexual harassment. Rape culture teaches, right along with the Mormon church that females should be virtuous or if anything bad happens to them that it makes them worthless, licked cupcakes. In rape and sexist culture, there is the Madonna/whore complex where if you are a good girl, nothing bad will happen to you and then if something bad does happen, well you must have deserved it. Being raped is both the worst thing that could happen, and no big deal, because you deserved it for being a slut. It itself is proof that you deserved it, cause if you didn’t, it would not have happened. You are a licked cupcake that would be better off dead. The fact that you are not dead is proof that you have no virtue. So what if it isn’t your fault, you still have no virtue cause you didn’t die defending it.

I had one client who was raped by a date and when her father found out, he raped her too because, he told her, she “no longer had any virtue, so he might as well get some of her ass too.” This is rape culture. It teaches women to keep sweet and keep silent.

So, if we women don’t stand up to rape culture, who the hell is going to? We owe it to ourselves, to each other, to stand up to rape culture.

It is rape culture that makes a man think he can make *that* kind of comment to a woman he just met.

So, let me make a comparison. You are talking with a white dude with his MAGA cap on, and dude uses the n word. Do you have a responsibility to your black buddy to stand up to the racist pig? Do you? How else are we going to combate racism.

So, let’s say I am your black buddy and you let the n word pass because you respect the guy with the MAGA hat, he is your boss. Do I have a right to be upset that you let the comment with the n word pass, because you were shocked, or what ever your excuse is?

Letting sexist jokes go is the same damned thing.

So, do I expect adult women to duck their head and let the sexual harassment go? Not an adult. I expect a full grown adult to learn to stand up to that kind of crap. Stand up to rape culture.

Sure, I understand why women don’t. Been there. Sure, I was like that at 15 maybe till I was 20 or so. I don’t remember being harassed between those years, but I do remember the first time I stood up to a comment that bad. It was to a college professor. He could have flunked me. But I told him never to make that kind of joke again because it was inappropriate, out of line and seeing as he was a professor and I was a student, probably illegal.

So, yes, I get a bit pissed when an adult woman looks down rather that telling the guy to take a flying leap. She isn’t a shy teen but a grown up. She is enabling rape culture. She is staying silent when she is not comfortable sexually. She is staying silent when she needs to teach the creep a thing or two. She is doing the exact same as staying silent when someone uses the n word.

OK, she spoke out about it later and somebody more grown up than she is will teach the creep. At least she spoke up, even if later.

We women owe it to ourselves and each other to teach men that rape culture is not acceptable. We need to speak out. We need to have good boundaries and speak up when someone crosses them. Fighting rape culture by telling off a creep is not “old school rape culture”. It is fighting tooth and nail with all the strength we can come up with to end rape culture.

Do I lose respect for women who fail to do so? Yup, a little. Do I think women who fail to stand up for themselves are part of the problem, contributing to the problem? Yup. That is why what’s her face who didn’t stand up to creep of the week is at fault. For being old enough she should have known better and failing to fight rape culture.

[Anon70]

Our experiences don’t define other people’s experiences. We don’t get to decide how women/other people should react in these situations. Anger at women/victims in these situations contributes to the problem.

*edited phrasing

[alas]

Our experiences don’t define other people’s experiences. We don’t get to decide how women/other people should react in these situations. Anger at women/victims in these situations contributes to the problem.

*edited phrasing

I am trying to understand my own reaction to her, so, I am going to acknowledge the arguments that I shouldn’t lecture her or shame her for her reaction. But she isn’t here and I am not talking to her. And I don’t know why her behavior triggered me, but it did.

If we are saying the male behavior is reprehensible, can’t we say the female behavior is self defeating? Can’t we acknowledge that this kind of reaction also contributes to the problem?

There is an audience of women listening to the news reports and discussing the incident. Can’t we use the discussion to point out a better way to handle it.

If it was a white person using the n word and others sat around and did nothing, wouldn’t we be angry at those doing nothing? This is the same thing, only expecting the person being targeted to stand up to it. She is supposedly a feminist, competent to speak at Sunstone. Should she be capable of being assertive???? What is wrong with expecting competent behavior out of adult women?

At first, she was shocked. OK, I will give her that. But she continued to go along with his crap behavior. She didn’t recover and gather her wits about her and refuse the MJ. That is like accepting a drink from the guy who is harassing you. It encourages his creep behavior.

I am not saying we should punish her or shame her for her reaction. I understand the reaction. But I am impatient with self defeating behavior. Women have reacted that way for generations. I understand her reaction. But why can’t I point out in the conversation how she could have reacted better?

Why can’t we start teaching women better behavior in those situations. When Clarence Thomace was creep of the week, Anita was drug through the mud for not reactiog better. Sure, it became a focus on her behavior as cause and the “poor man didn’t know better”

Taking it to the point people forget his behavior because all the attention is on her failure to stand up for herself is wrong.

But that quiet accepting reaction to male aggression contributes to the problem! Men never learn. Because nobody teaches them. One comment that struck me back with Bill Clinton being creep of the week was a man said something to the effect of “where are his buddies or advisors to tell him his behavior is stupid and political suicide, not to mention the effect on women. Men do not police other men. They encourage it in locker room talk.

So, if we are forbidden from teaching women to be assertive and recognizing lack of assertive behavior when it contributes to the problem, because of the risk of putting any responsibility on the female to defend herself being victim blame, what the hell is the answer. Wait till after women are raped for the counselor to teach them to be assertive. I spent years doing that, after the fact. I want to teach it as prevention not consolation after the fact.

I recognize what was done to Anita Hill was victim blame. It was all her fault for not reacting the right way and losing her job. But it begins to feel that the pendulum is swinging too far away from rape/harassment prevention to avoid any victim blame.

If a girl goes to a party and drinks and gets raped, the rape is not her fault. But can’t we still tell girls to be careful how much they drink at that kind of party as a technique to avoid rape?

I used to go into high school classes to teach rape awareness. I had a set thing of what to teach, dictated partly by the state, but also used the latest research on rape prevention. Both boys and girls were taught that their drinking at parties could contribute to rape. Because most of the time the rapist has been drinking, but he still picks a girl who also has been drinking. We still emphasized it as risk reduction, not any kind of promise of safety.

But now there are argument about telling girls not to drink at parties, because that is “victim blaming.” Warning them ahead of time isn’t victim blaming unless it is taught as “it is your fault”. No, victim blaming is telling the girl it wouldn’t have happened if she had not been drinking. It is the “good girls don’t get raped, so be a good girl and don’t get raped.” We don’t know that because sober girls also get raped. In each rape case, we don’t know what really contributed to her being victimized. But we do study it to learn generalities. Then we should teach the generalities as risk management.

We do know that drinking increases the risk of rape. So, what is wrong with telling girls how to lower their risk? There is the specific case, where we never really know. And there are the statistical cases where we look at patterns.

The kind of creepy behavior Kirby was doing is the same kind of grooming that rapists use to select a victim. Can’t we teach women to stand up to that by pointing out a better way to behave?

[Coop]

Suggesting that this is strictly a gender issue is too narrow in my opinion. Our culture in general rewards the fast aggressive person, be they male or female. Even in school, which is a time and failure based system, supports this type of person while those, like my wife, who is more introverted cowers in the background. I on the other hand love a good repartee with someone who is mentally glib.

But regardless of how we define the scope of the issue it is still an issue partly caused by some of the false ideology we teach at Church that supports the type of personal exchanges you mention. Not all of us, like a friend of mine, have the nerve to tell their husband on their wedding night that if you ever hurt me you better learn to sleep with one eye open because I own a knife and I know how to use it! Think Lenora Babbitt

All the best,
Bob

[Hagoth]

You are a licked cupcake that would be better off dead. The fact that you are not dead is proof that you have no virtue. So what if it isn’t your fault, you still have no virtue cause you didn’t die defending it.

Possibly the worst concept taught in Mormonism.

Thanks for your thoughts, Alas.

[alas]

Well, going back to the original thread sure showed me what is so triggering about this conversation. I am in a bad state of “stand up to the patriarchy” burn out. I am sick to death of women who talk talk talk, but when it comes to standing up to authority, they wimp out. She wimped out and I guess I don’t respect that. And while I totally understand her behavior and it is totally forgivable, y’all still can’t talk me into respecting a wimp.

Of course she didn’t CAUSE him to say jerky things. But all I am saying is can we talk about how she reacted to his being a jerk, and the obvious reaction is that there are women so paranoid about victim blame that they can’t think straight or listen to what someone is really saying about her reaction to harassment. They think it is always about whose fault it is when it is *everybody’s fault* she couldn’t stand up to a man. Let’s get over the blame and find solutions.

I am thinking I am just ahead of the current state of feminism. Tired of talking about it and looking for what we can do. But, as far as I am concerned, “keep sweet” just doesn’t change anything. Blaming the patriarchy doesn’t change anything. What are we gonna do?

I am not really angry at the individual victim for her personal reaction, but angry at the whole situation, where we can’t even talk about rape prevention because some one is gonna scream “Victim blame” and that makes it so we cannot have a logical conversation about the whole thing. We can’t teach women to be assertive even among NOMs because it triggers the “defend the victim” reaction, as if I am not a rape survivor myself. But having processed the whole ...um, several things...years ago, I am not afraid of talking about sexual harassment in the context of what can women do because I know good and well that women are not responsible for men’s behavior. That is a given to me. But over on the other thread, that is all they want to hear.

Anyway, thanks you men for responding to this without telling me I am blaming HER for HIS behavior. Anyone who knows me knows that is not the case, but obviously some of the women on NOM don’t know me and are so in the habit of trying to lecture men on rape culture, that they haven’t a clue what I am really saying, and I wasn’t really sure why I was feeling pissed at a victim of harassment anyway.

[Anon70]

Our experiences don’t define other people’s experiences. We don’t get to decide how women/other people should react in these situations. Anger at women/victims in these situations contributes to the problem.

*edited phrasing

I am trying to understand my own reaction to her, so, I am going to acknowledge the arguments that I shouldn’t lecture her or shame her for her reaction. But she isn’t here and I am not talking to her. And I don’t know why her behavior triggered me, but it did.

If we are saying the male behavior is reprehensible, can’t we say the female behavior is self defeating? Can’t we acknowledge that this kind of reaction also contributes to the problem?

There is an audience of women listening to the news reports and discussing the incident. Can’t we use the discussion to point out a better way to handle it.

If it was a white person using the n word and others sat around and did nothing, wouldn’t we be angry at those doing nothing? This is the same thing, only expecting the person being targeted to stand up to it. She is supposedly a feminist, competent to speak at Sunstone. Should she be capable of being assertive???? What is wrong with expecting competent behavior out of adult women?

At first, she was shocked. OK, I will give her that. But she continued to go along with his crap behavior. She didn’t recover and gather her wits about her and refuse the MJ. That is like accepting a drink from the guy who is harassing you. It encourages his creep behavior.

I am not saying we should punish her or shame her for her reaction. I understand the reaction. But I am impatient with self defeating behavior. Women have reacted that way for generations. I understand her reaction. But why can’t I point out in the conversation how she could have reacted better?

Why can’t we start teaching women better behavior in those situations. When Clarence Thomace was creep of the week, Anita was drug through the mud for not reactiog better. Sure, it became a focus on her behavior as cause and the “poor man didn’t know better”

Taking it to the point people forget his behavior because all the attention is on her failure to stand up for herself is wrong.

But that quiet accepting reaction to male aggression contributes to the problem! Men never learn. Because nobody teaches them. One comment that struck me back with Bill Clinton being creep of the week was a man said something to the effect of “where are his buddies or advisors to tell him his behavior is stupid and political suicide, not to mention the effect on women. Men do not police other men. They encourage it in locker room talk.

So, if we are forbidden from teaching women to be assertive and recognizing lack of assertive behavior when it contributes to the problem, because of the risk of putting any responsibility on the female to defend herself being victim blame, what the hell is the answer. Wait till after women are raped for the counselor to teach them to be assertive. I spent years doing that, after the fact. I want to teach it as prevention not consolation after the fact.

I recognize what was done to Anita Hill was victim blame. It was all her fault for not reacting the right way and losing her job. But it begins to feel that the pendulum is swinging too far away from rape/harassment prevention to avoid any victim blame.

If a girl goes to a party and drinks and gets raped, the rape is not her fault. But can’t we still tell girls to be careful how much they drink at that kind of party as a technique to avoid rape?

I used to go into high school classes to teach rape awareness. I had a set thing of what to teach, dictated partly by the state, but also used the lst research on rape prevention. Both boys and girls were taught that their drinking at parties could contribute to rape. Because most of the time the rapist has been drinking, but he still picks a girl who also has been drinking. We still emphasized it as risk reduction, not any kind of promise of safety.

But now there are argument about telling girls not to drink at parties, because that is “victim blaming.” Warning them ahead of time isn’t victim blaming unless it is taught as “it is your fault”. No, victim blaming is telling the girl it wouldn’t have happened if she had not been drinking. It is the “good girls don’t get raped, so be a good girl and don’t get raped.” We don’t know that because sober girls also get raped. In each rape case, we don’t know what really contributed to her being victimized. But we do study it to learn generalities. Then we should teach the generalities as risk management.

We do know that drinking increases the risk of rape. So, what is wrong with telling girls how to lower their risk? There is the specific case, where we never really know. And there are the statistical cases where we look at patterns.

The kind of creepy behavior Kirby was doing is the same kind of grooming that rapists use to select a victim. Can’t we teach women to stand up to that by pointing out a better way to behave?

I'm not sure why you're angry either but it does feel like you're taking it out on me. My two small paragraphs in comparison to your many paragraphs are a lecture? but yours aren't? I'm as entitled to my thoughts on this as you are and I thought this forum was for discussion.....

I didn't see anyone on these threads saying that change doesn't need to happen. I'm saying we shouldn't judge her reaction or the time it took her to speak up. Speaking up may be the first step in moving towards what you're discussing as far as moving feminism to the next step/to beyond the curve where you are. I'm glad you got the responses you needed from the men here, they are good ones.

[crossmyheart]

OK, she spoke out about it later and somebody more grown up than she is will teach the creep. At least she spoke up, even if later.

We women owe it to ourselves and each other to teach men that rape culture is not acceptable. We need to speak out. We need to have good boundaries and speak up when someone crosses them. Fighting rape culture by telling off a creep is not “old school rape culture”. It is fighting tooth and nail with all the strength we can come up with to end rape culture.

Do I lose respect for women who fail to do so? Yup, a little. Do I think women who fail to stand up for themselves are part of the problem, contributing to the problem? Yup. That is why what’s her face who didn’t stand up to creep of the week is at fault. For being old enough she should have known better and failing to fight rape culture.

Throwing in my 2 cents... As a female in a male dominated industry, I have had plenty of "me too" moments. Some I handled well and some I regret that I let slide. But the things is, I disagree with the path these women who wait to speak up are choosing to take for retribution by choosing to go the public shaming route.

It appears that Kirby's accuser took this to the media, not him, not his employer or even law enforcement. But in an instant he is guilty by court of public shame. That doesn't sit right with me in this instance and with most of these other recent public shaming events. There are other courses of action that should have been taken first, before a man's reputation is smeared in front of the world. By no means am I defending any perpetrators. I just don't agree with the public shaming.

[Red Ryder]

Anon70, I don't think you or Wonderment are the direct targets of Alas' comments.

I think we've all been triggered by the Sam Young excommunication, the McKenna rape, and the church's response to all of us disillusioned members. It's emotionally exhausting.

Let's remember we are all not immune to the emotional stress we've been subject to by the church.

Now everyone go outside and get some fresh air!

[MerrieMiss]

I’m going to join the unpopular opinion here and agree with a lot of what alas has to say.

Perhaps it was because I read this after finishing a podcast with Jonathan Haight, but this whole situation or place that we’re at in our society bothers me. I wouldn’t say I am angry, but I am frustrated with a culture that demands a pound of flesh for every infraction of wrong behavior. I am frustrated with the idea that women are perpetual victims, people that something happens to and are unable to step in and take care of the problem but instead are perpetual tattlers.

Before anyone gets too angry about that I’m going to say I agree that acknowledging the problems, the inappropriateness, is good and necessary, but I don’t see the next step alas is talking about happening. I’ve been frozen, blindsided and no doubt it will continue to happen through my life because something unexpected can always happen. I’ve been harassed, I’ve had other negative experiences, I’ve been hushed up by a female superior when I reported inappropriate behavior at work. We can’t control how we feel, but we can certainly control what we do, and I don’t see a lot of doing aside from public outcry. I’m not suggesting that the woman not feel bad or uncomfortable, but I do wonder why we haven’t talked about confronting the person themselves and having that difficult conversation. It isn’t like Kirby was her superior, or spouse, or had any real hold over her other than she thought of him as a celebrity of sorts. He made a joke that wasn’t funny. Tell him, “No I don’t think so.” Or later, pull him aside or write him a letter explaining your disappointment. Or, chalk it up to a learning experience that no one should be on a pedestal, and next time, don’t take MJ from strangers and decline to participate in stupid jokes that aren’t funny.

For the past 5-10 years I’ve read a lot of feminist literature. After the last book, I got depressed and resentful. The author got so much right, but every time she did I became a victim all over again – a victim of my culture, the patriarchy, the church, rape culture – in short, I was powerless and I had no control. I was a victim and things happened to me. And the worst part was that she ended the book with no answers, no plans, no way to change the ways things are - just more books, essays, blogging etc decrying the situation. I can still acknowledge the bad out there and there things I can’t really control or change, such as being raised a woman in the LDS church, but I can do something about it. I can learn, go back to school, work, raise my children to think differently, and that puts me back in control of my life and the feelings of depression and desperation vanish or at least lessen a great deal.

I don’t like that we live in a culture of outrage. Maybe NOM isn’t the place to talk about that. I get that a lot of people here have really legitimate feelings of anger and hurt – I do too. There have been times I’ve gone to exmo reddit just to get my daily dose of anger. But I really can’t begin to heal until I begin to let go of the anger and frankly, I’m tired of being angry.

What we need is a new narrative. It’s good that we’ve moved past the narrative (outside the church anyway) that says a woman has to be a 1950s housewife or that sexual harassment is her fault -it’s good we acknowledge it is wrong. But I think it is time to empower women to do something about it. Crying foul every time something happens, demanding a resignation or a firing, or as alas points out -letting some other grown up handle it - it simply becomes mob mentality and makes women powerless. There’s a whole generation of women right now coming of age and I worry that what they are learning is that they are not powerful enough to confront this and make a difference. What a difference it would have made for me to have had a narrative or an example of a woman who was able to take action and confront her problems head on.

[alas]

Our experiences don’t define other people’s experiences. We don’t get to decide how women/other people should react in these situations. Anger at women/victims in these situations contributes to the problem.

*edited phrasing

I am trying to understand my own reaction to her, so, I am going to acknowledge the arguments that I shouldn’t lecture her or shame her for her reaction. But she isn’t here and I am not talking to her. And I don’t know why her behavior triggered me, but it did.

If we are saying the male behavior is reprehensible, can’t we say the female behavior is self defeating? Can’t we acknowledge that this kind of reaction also contributes to the problem?

There is an audience of women listening to the news reports and discussing the incident. Can’t we use the discussion to point out a better way to handle it.

If it was a white person using the n word and others sat around and did nothing, wouldn’t we be angry at those doing nothing? This is the same thing, only expecting the person being targeted to stand up to it. She is supposedly a feminist, competent to speak at Sunstone. Should she be capable of being assertive???? What is wrong with expecting competent behavior out of adult women?

At first, she was shocked. OK, I will give her that. But she continued to go along with his crap behavior. She didn’t recover and gather her wits about her and refuse the MJ. That is like accepting a drink from the guy who is harassing you. It encourages his creep behavior.

I am not saying we should punish her or shame her for her reaction. I understand the reaction. But I am impatient with self defeating behavior. Women have reacted that way for generations. I understand her reaction. But why can’t I point out in the conversation how she could have reacted better?

Why can’t we start teaching women better behavior in those situations. When Clarence Thomace was creep of the week, Anita was drug through the mud for not reactiog better. Sure, it became a focus on her behavior as cause and the “poor man didn’t know better”

Taking it to the point people forget his behavior because all the attention is on her failure to stand up for herself is wrong.

But that quiet accepting reaction to male aggression contributes to the problem! Men never learn. Because nobody teaches them. One comment that struck me back with Bill Clinton being creep of the week was a man said something to the effect of “where are his buddies or advisors to tell him his behavior is stupid and political suicide, not to mention the effect on women. Men do not police other men. They encourage it in locker room talk.

So, if we are forbidden from teaching women to be assertive and recognizing lack of assertive behavior when it contributes to the problem, because of the risk of putting any responsibility on the female to defend herself being victim blame, what the hell is the answer. Wait till after women are raped for the counselor to teach them to be assertive. I spent years doing that, after the fact. I want to teach it as prevention not consolation after the fact.

I recognize what was done to Anita Hill was victim blame. It was all her fault for not reacting the right way and losing her job. But it begins to feel that the pendulum is swinging too far away from rape/harassment prevention to avoid any victim blame.

If a girl goes to a party and drinks and gets raped, the rape is not her fault. But can’t we still tell girls to be careful how much they drink at that kind of party as a technique to avoid rape?

I used to go into high school classes to teach rape awareness. I had a set thing of what to teach, dictated partly by the state, but also used the lst research on rape prevention. Both boys and girls were taught that their drinking at parties could contribute to rape. Because most of the time the rapist has been drinking, but he still picks a girl who also has been drinking. We still emphasized it as risk reduction, not any kind of promise of safety.

But now there are argument about telling girls not to drink at parties, because that is “victim blaming.” Warning them ahead of time isn’t victim blaming unless it is taught as “it is your fault”. No, victim blaming is telling the girl it wouldn’t have happened if she had not been drinking. It is the “good girls don’t get raped, so be a good girl and don’t get raped.” We don’t know that because sober girls also get raped. In each rape case, we don’t know what really contributed to her being victimized. But we do study it to learn generalities. Then we should teach the generalities as risk management.

We do know that drinking increases the risk of rape. So, what is wrong with telling girls how to lower their risk? There is the specific case, where we never really know. And there are the statistical cases where we look at patterns.

The kind of creepy behavior Kirby was doing is the same kind of grooming that rapists use to select a victim. Can’t we teach women to stand up to that by pointing out a better way to behave?

I'm not sure why you're angry either but it does feel like you're taking it out on me. My two small paragraphs in comparison to your many paragraphs are a lecture? but yours aren't? I'm as entitled to my thoughts on this as you are and I thought this forum was for discussion.....

I didn't see anyone on these threads saying that change doesn't need to happen. I'm saying we shouldn't judge her reaction or the time it took her to speak up. Speaking up may be the first step in moving towards what you're discussing as far as moving feminism to the next step/to beyond the curve where you are. I'm glad you got the responses you needed from the men here, they are good ones.

But you did accuse me of blaming the victim and that was so not what I was doing. And I wrote a lot trying to clear up the misunderstanding, not to lecture you. It was obvious you did not understand what I was trying to say, and I was not sure where the misunderstanding was. So, I try to cover all the bases and it get long. If I had been clear enough myself what I was feeling, then I might have seen where the misunderstanding was.

But thanks for letting me know you felt lectured. I am sorry about that. I was frustrated because I didn’t know how to clear up the communication problem. And it wasn’t my intent to come across the way I probably did. Just to try to get my thoughts out.

[alas]

OK, she spoke out about it later and somebody more grown up than she is will teach the creep. At least she spoke up, even if later.

We women owe it to ourselves and each other to teach men that rape culture is not acceptable. We need to speak out. We need to have good boundaries and speak up when someone crosses them. Fighting rape culture by telling off a creep is not “old school rape culture”. It is fighting tooth and nail with all the strength we can come up with to end rape culture.

Do I lose respect for women who fail to do so? Yup, a little. Do I think women who fail to stand up for themselves are part of the problem, contributing to the problem? Yup. That is why what’s her face who didn’t stand up to creep of the week is at fault. For being old enough she should have known better and failing to fight rape culture.

Throwing in my 2 cents... As a female in a male dominated industry, I have had plenty of "me too" moments. Some I handled well and some I regret that I let slide. But the things is, I disagree with the path these women who wait to speak up are choosing to take for retribution by choosing to go the public shaming route.

It appears that Kirby's accuser took this to the media, not him, not his employer or even law enforcement. But in an instant he is guilty by court of public shame. That doesn't sit right with me in this instance and with most of these other recent public shaming events. There are other courses of action that should have been taken first, before a man's reputation is smeared in front of the world. By no means am I defending any perpetrators. I just don't agree with the public shaming.

That is a part of why women standing up for themselves is a better option than not saying anything at the time and then convicting him in the court of public opinion. But I didn’t want to sound any more than I already did like I was taking the creep’s side.

[alas]

I’m going to join the unpopular opinion here and agree with a lot of what alas has to say.

Perhaps it was because I read this after finishing a podcast with Jonathan Haight, but this whole situation or place that we’re at in our society bothers me. I wouldn’t say I am angry, but I am frustrated with a culture that demands a pound of flesh for every infraction of wrong behavior. I am frustrated with the idea that women are perpetual victims, people that something happens to and are unable to step in and take care of the problem but instead are perpetual tattlers.

Before anyone gets too angry about that I’m going to say I agree that acknowledging the problems, the inappropriateness, is good and necessary, but I don’t see the next step alas is talking about happening. I’ve been frozen, blindsided and no doubt it will continue to happen through my life because something unexpected can always happen. I’ve been harassed, I’ve had other negative experiences, I’ve been hushed up by a female superior when I reported inappropriate behavior at work. We can’t control how we feel, but we can certainly control what we do, and I don’t see a lot of doing aside from public outcry. I’m not suggesting that the woman not feel bad or uncomfortable, but I do wonder why we haven’t talked about confronting the person themselves and having that difficult conversation. It isn’t like Kirby was her superior, or spouse, or had any real hold over her other than she thought of him as a celebrity of sorts. He made a joke that wasn’t funny. Tell him, “No I don’t think so.” Or later, pull him aside or write him a letter explaining your disappointment. Or, chalk it up to a learning experience that no one should be on a pedestal, and next time, don’t take MJ from strangers and decline to participate in stupid jokes that aren’t funny.

For the past 5-10 years I’ve read a lot of feminist literature. After the last book, I got depressed and resentful. The author got so much right, but every time she did I became a victim all over again – a victim of my culture, the patriarchy, the church, rape culture – in short, I was powerless and I had no control. I was a victim and things happened to me. And the worst part was that she ended the book with no answers, no plans, no way to change the ways things are - just more books, essays, blogging etc decrying the situation. I can still acknowledge the bad out there and there things I can’t really control or change, such as being raised a woman in the LDS church, but I can do something about it. I can learn, go back to school, work, raise my children to think differently, and that puts me back in control of my life and the feelings of depression and desperation vanish or at least lessen a great deal.

I don’t like that we live in a culture of outrage. Maybe NOM isn’t the place to talk about that. I get that a lot of people here have really legitimate feelings of anger and hurt – I do too. There have been times I’ve gone to exmo reddit just to get my daily dose of anger. But I really can’t begin to heal until I begin to let go of the anger and frankly, I’m tired of being angry.

What we need is a new narrative. It’s good that we’ve moved past the narrative (outside the church anyway) that says a woman has to be a 1950s housewife or that sexual harassment is her fault -it’s good we acknowledge it is wrong. But I think it is time to empower women to do something about it. Crying foul every time something happens, demanding a resignation or a firing, or as alas points out -letting some other grown up handle it - it simply becomes mob mentality and makes women powerless. There’s a whole generation of women right now coming of age and I worry that what they are learning is that they are not powerful enough to confront this and make a difference. What a difference it would have made for me to have had a narrative or an example of a woman who was able to take action and confront her problems head on.

Thank you. As I was trying to say, women will feel better about themselves if they learn to stand up for themselves. They owe it to themselves and they owe it to other women to set an example of strong women.

We have to talk about her behavior as an example of not standing up for herself in order to start to teach that younger generation that they can and they have a right to. Is it hard? Yup. Is it worth it? Yup to that too.

I felt revictimized by her victimization when she didn’t have to be such a victim.

There is such a thing as victim behavior and we want to stop teaching that and start teaching strength.

[alas]

Oops, quoted instead of edited.

[Wonderment]

Persons who report verbal or sexual assault are often asked, "Well, why didn't you speak up sooner?" "Why didn't you do something about it?" Why are you enabling the perpetrator, and so forth?" The spotlight is turned onto the victim. This is what happened in this thread.

This thread is all about Courtney Kendrick and where she went wrong. The same thing happened with Madi Barney at BYU when she reported the sexual assault. The spotlight was then turned on her as a violator of the honor code.

In my mind, this is what is happening here on this thread. You spent far more time calling out Courtney Kendrick than you did calling out Robert Kirby.

Almost every victim is blamed by asking "Why didn't you speak out?" But, Kendrick did speak out. She may not have spoken out on your time schedule, but she spoke out when she felt she could safely do so.

I am pretty much a pro-active person, and if I encountered a famous celebrity who was to be welcomed and treated with deference, who then out of the blue came out with these sexual remarks, I would probably be completely taken aback. It would take me awhile to figure out how I felt about that and what to do about it.

Can you say with honesty that when Kirby made these very offensive remarks, you would have immediately shouted at him and told him that you would report him? It's easy to be a Monday morning quarterback and scold Kendrick for doing the wrong thing, or start with the........"Why didn't she do such and such" statements.

Do you see how this is victim blaming? See how the spotlight is now completely turned from Kirby the perp onto Kendrick, the recipient of the behavior? IMO, this is what is happening here on this thread. -- Wndr.

[Wonderment]

Thank you. As I was trying to say, women will feel better about themselves if they learn to stand up for themselves. They owe it to themselves and they owe it to other women to set an example of strong women.

I disagree. I think that Kendrick IS standing up for herself by speaking out. That takes a lot of courage. She could have just stayed silent. She may not have spoken up exactly when you wanted her to, but she DID speak up, and she is to be commended for that. Her speaking up caused the Trib to suspend Kirby -- which was the correct action, IMO.

[Wonderment]

This is why women or men who are victims of sexual impropriety do NOT speak out -- because people become so angry with them, as shown in this thread.

Alas is angrier with Courtney Kendrick than she is with Kirby, who initiated the action. In other words, the blowback is directed at Kendrick, who will almost certainly be notified of this thread via the blogosphere. NOM is widely read throughout the bloggernacle, and Kendrick will see all this anger.

( I don't think anyone here should notify her -- and I certainly will not, as I have no way to contact her --- but, undoubtedly, the thread will be forwarded to her). Wndr.

[Anon70]

Yes to everything Wndr says so clearly in these last few comments. Exactly this.

[crossmyheart]

Thank you. As I was trying to say, women will feel better about themselves if they learn to stand up for themselves. They owe it to themselves and they owe it to other women to set an example of strong women.

I disagree. I think that Kendrick IS standing up for herself by speaking out. That takes a lot of courage. She could have just stayed silent. She may not have spoken up exactly when you wanted her to, but she DID speak up, and she is to be commended for that. Her speaking up caused the Trib to suspend Kirby -- which was the correct action, IMO.

I understand your compassion, but please consider that you have already convicted Kirby without any type of investigation. He said/she said. We cant just take every victim's word for it. There is no justice in that. There is a word for this type of social media spectacle: vigilantism.

His version of the encounter is different than hers. It doesn't make either person right, however this should not have played out in public, but first investigated by proper authority AKA Sunstone, his employer, law enforcement...

Instead she takes it straight to Facebook? Not exactly my first choice of legitimate journalism.

There is more to this story than she is telling and I don't respect her for the way she went about this. She seems much more vindictive than victim. Think about it. She is a blogger. She knew EXACTLY what would happen if she took it straight to Facebook instead of a proper chain of command regarding a complaint of harassment. I am not convinced he is completely at fault here. Not everything is black and white.

[Anon70]

Thank you. As I was trying to say, women will feel better about themselves if they learn to stand up for themselves. They owe it to themselves and they owe it to other women to set an example of strong women.

I disagree. I think that Kendrick IS standing up for herself by speaking out. That takes a lot of courage. She could have just stayed silent. She may not have spoken up exactly when you wanted her to, but she DID speak up, and she is to be commended for that. Her speaking up caused the Trib to suspend Kirby -- which was the correct action, IMO.

I understand your compassion, but please consider that you have already convicted Kirby without any type of investigation. He said/she said. We cant just take every victim's word for it. There is no justice in that. There is a word for this type of social media spectacle: vigilantism.

His version of the encounter is different than hers. It doesn't make either person right, however this should not have played out in public, but first investigated by proper authority AKA Sunstone, his employer, law enforcement...

Instead she takes it straight to Facebook? Not exactly my first choice of legitimate journalism.

There is more to this story than she is telling and I don't respect her for the way she went about this. She seems much more vindictive than victim. Think about it. She is a blogger. She knew EXACTLY what would happen if she took it straight to Facebook instead of a proper chain of command regarding a complaint of harassment. I am not convinced he is completely at fault here. Not everything is black and white.

Can you share where his story differs? In his early posts and then in his apology he admitted to telling her to act like a call girl, that he gave her the chewable and that he announced she was high during his public speech.