Latest realization

[Reuben]

It took two years to figure this out: I've become too dependent on what other people think.

Yeah, this is normal human crap. It's a new problem for me, though.

I used to care only what God and a few close family members thought. It was honestly really nice to be like that. When I discovered that I couldn't believe in any particular god, I started to depend more on what people thought for my self-worth, and to depend on more people for it. That's risky.

If you've become some kind of agnostic or deist, what's your substitute?

[Red Ryder]

I pull out old issues of National Geographic magazine and search for indigenous boobies, er I mean to read the articles and get lost in the big wide world that’s out there. It brings a sudden realization that the world is a lot bigger place and that I’m just an insignificant part of it. For whatever reason that helps me see that I shouldn’t care what people think because in the end it’s pretty damn rough out there and nature or people in some African countries will kill me in the blink of an eye if I’m in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Substitute what others think of you with what you think of yourself! It’s still risky because we can be our harshest critic but only you have the ability to improve yourself the most.

For me, my faith transition has been the ultimate CTRL + ALT + DELETE. As I reboot I’ve realized the source code is still all there, however the user interface is completely different and the processor calculates different answers now.

I love it but honestly it’s been more complicated then the exmo reddit selfie posts make it seem.

[alas]

When God was all imagined anyway, what were you really basing “god” on? What other people told you God approved of? Or you you personally thought God approved of?

If it was based on other people’s version if God it was still based on what other people thought, because it is based on what they think God approves of. But if it was based on your own version of what God approved of, then it was based internally. Can you see this difference?

You were most likely basing your feelings of approval on what others told you God approved of, and since all Mormons tend to agree, it was quite simple. Then when God dropped out of the picture, you fell back on other people. Which it had really been anyway, only now all the people are not Mormon, so there are too many opinions to keep track of.

What you need to do is internalize “God”. What would your very own version of God, if he/she/it existed, approve of? Imagining God is actually useful for this. It helps you figure out what your personal values are. Once you figure out your values and what you feel is most important, then you don’t need to rely on others because it is inside of you. Your approval becomes the only one that is important, then second to that is keeping loved ones happy, because that is probably on your list of values anyway.

But with loved ones, you don’t need their approval for every little thing, just shared values. For example, I don’t need my TBM son’s approval for drinking coffee. But I do need his respect for the kind of person I am.

[BriansThoughtMirror]

I don't have a great substitute, but I did have a similar realization. I used to think I was brave- that I would stand up for my morals and principles even if the whole world was against me. I've since realized that I was only sort of brave. I was brave enough to stand up for my tribe's morals and principles, even if the whole outside world was against me. My true peers were always on my side, because as a Mormon*, I was part of a small, tight ingroup. I didn't realize how much my ingroup affected me. I've since found it's MUCH harder to go against your own ingroup. I don't feel nearly as brave these days, and I'm often disappointed with myself.

*oops, I mean Latter-Day Saint of the Church of Jesus Christ. I wasn't a polygamist, for heck's sake!

[Corsair]

In the past two years I have actually been trying to study something other than Mormonism. Because 99% of the world simply does not care about it. I started with a long read through the history of Rome and then a history of other, older civilizations. I went through a history of Christianity I added some later histories of modern revolutions. I think this has all been fascinating, but it simply works for my interests.

A couple of overarching lessons have come out of this. First, Mormonism is so astonishingly tiny and insular and largely irrelevant. There are some famous Mormons and certainly the colonization of the American West was done, in part, by Mormons. The numerous factions of Christianity are very good evidence that whatever God and Jesus want for His worshippers, the details simply don't seem to matter beyond the simple kindness preached in the Sermon on the Mount. Religious claims that go beyond the New Testament are simply not going to truly matter.

Western thought and Christian thought were heavily influenced by the the major schools of Greek thought and the usual suspects of Socrates, Plato, Aristotle. If you want a brief curriculum of how to live well and be your own person, find a picture of The School of Athens by Raphael and make a one paragraph summary of each philosopher in that painting. At that point you will be far beyond anything that your local leadership can use for any kind of influence on you. And then you can move on to Descartes, Hume, Spinoza, Kant, and Voltaire.

Your attitude towards the church will then look like arrogance, when actually you have embraced an epistemic humility that Sunday School simply cannot comprehend. You will have better answers to the meaning of life and, ironically, reasons why that question might not need an answer or even have and answer. You can embrace Christianity or unbelief or Pastafarianism or something else with a resolve that "read the Book of Mormon and pray" simply cannot touch. Your newfound regard for dependence on what others think is partly based on your realization that your social group is important to the thinking creatures we aspire to be.

[Brent]

"Do no harm".

Works for me.

[MerrieMiss]

I have a similar realization, similar difficulty. I was so filled with hubris I didn’t care what anyone else thought. I’m not sure it’s caring what others think quite as much as realizing I know very, very little and I do worry about offending others. I’m so hesitant to share or say anything for fear I might be wrong and/or offensive. Never mind that I then live a life of people offending me because they simply don’t care.

I also want to find acceptance from others. Mormonism never worked for me as a tribe – it was a crappy tribe, but I had people. I find myself much more alone now and sometimes I feel like fourteen year old me, so desperate for people I’m willing to pretend I’m someone I’m not, to hang on the periphery thinking that one day I will be with the “in” crowd, whoever that is. I know all of this mentally, but it's easy to fall into these patterns of thinking.

[Linked]

I think the transition you describe is actually a good thing, especially when you are able to recognize it and then shape it.

As a mormon we were all told a fake standard we had to live up to. Follow these rules and god will be happy. Feel this way about things and god will be happy; if you don't god will be sad and who knows what cosmic punishment he has in store; you can blame everything on yourself.

Realizing that the mormon god may not be real forces you to reconsider that. You have to reconsider the idea that what other people think doesn't really matter. Maybe it does. You get to decide!

Part of the JST that I thought was insightful was what changed in Matthew 7:2 - Judge not unrighteously, that ye be not judged: but judge righteous judgment. This changed the meaning significantly, from don't judge to make sure you judge correctly. Within mormonism that means align your will with the brethren.

Outside of mormonism I think trying to judge correctly is still applicable though. Humans are judgement machines, we do it quickly and naturally and constantly and with tons of bias. But we can shape those judgements to be better. Rather than follow the impossible "Don't Judge!" that many people say, work with yourself to better inform your judgements. When you find yourself judging yourself based on what others think consider if the behavior you are feeling bad about is something you think is good or bad, and update your judgement. It's a slow process and requires a lot of mental/emotional work, but it's another way you can take back your "self" from mormonism.

Another thing is, I think the church is wrong about not caring what others think. Most humans need people in their "in group", and avoiding irreparably damaging those relationships is important. In mormonism everyone is pulling in the same direction by not caring what people think and only caring what god thinks, as described by the scriptures and modern prophets, so the act of not caring is actually a signal to the other mormons that you are part of their "in group". It's a clever trick.

Now just make sure you pick the right things to care about and the right people to care about.

[Dravin]

If you've become some kind of agnostic or deist, what's your substitute?

If anything upon realizing I'm an atheist my locus of approval has become increasingly internal. No mythical being in the sky I have to seek the approval of, not Bishops or Stake Presidents I have to undergo questioning from in order to gain their approval (which also plays into sky being's approval), even where it concerns people extremely close to me like my wife my focus is more on being a good and supportive person rather than necessarily meeting the textbook mold of Mormonism.

In short, I became more comfortable with the idea that people can disapprove of things I do and standards I fail to meet without it meaning I'm a worthless degenerate worm heading towards well deserved damnation.

[Reuben]

I know this reply is late, but... thanks for your thoughts everyone. They were all helpful.

I've noticed since that how dependent I am on other people's good opinions tends to correlate with getting too little sleep. Worse, it's a downward cycle. Not getting enough sleep ends up making me stressed, which makes it harder to go to sleep... and so here I am at 3am.

To speak to alas's reply in particular: my ideas about God's approval started off being what I was told about God, but they drifted. By the time I couldn't believe in any god, my ideas about him had become very Pauline in general. To me, God was forgiving and understanding, the kind of being who would sit with you in your misery after you did something wrong rather than punish you. He certainly wasn't Mormonism's god.

Now I think it was probably all just me. So why do I have a hard time doing the same thing for myself? Sleep disorders and self-doubt. Regarding the latter: if I'm telling myself that I'm awesome, how do I know it's true? Before, I could believe that the supreme creator thought I was awesome, but I can't do that now.

[Hagoth]

The Kingdom of God is within you. And nowhere else.

[RubinHighlander]

Science and the natural world serve me well.