Email from Mom

[Linked]

My mom sent me an email after we had a disagreement about the divinity of Joseph Smith's life work, and I responded, see below for the emails. I have mixed feelings. It is nice to have open dialogue, but there is no common ground to build a stronger relationship around.

Linked: I was reading in the Book of Mormon today Mormon 9:31. This is Moroni speaking to those unbelieving. One of the things he said made me want to send it to you; so here it is:

31 Condemn me not because of mine imperfection, neither my father, because of his imperfection, neither them who have written before him; but rather give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto you our imperfections, that ye may learn to be more wise than we have been.

I know you have read things about Joseph Smith and his "wrong doings". I don't know if they are true or not, but it doesn't matter. I look at what the gospel does for me. What Christ's spirit does for me. I don't believe you believe your feelings. But that is where you gain your testimony with your heart, not your head.

I love you Linked!!! I love doing things with you and your family!! Know that you will always be in my prayers.

Love Mom

Hi Mom,

I love you too!

You are right, I don't trust my feelings as a way to know if something is true or not. I am good with that though. I think that relying too heavily on our feelings to determine what we believe is true can lead us to false conclusions. I think that a testimony gained "with your heart, not your head" opens people up to being lead away from truth/reality by things like confirmation bias.

As for Joseph Smith, first you should know that his misdeeds did not lead to me not believing as you do, that happened a couple years before I knew details of said misdeeds. First I realized that based on what I've seen it seems unlikely to me that an intervening god exists. With a new perspective that Joseph Smith was not in communication with god, I had to reevaluate what I thought of him. Without god, the fruits of Joseph Smith are bad. A manipulative and authoritarian regime that has lasted for centuries which ensnares my entire family tree. Polygamy. Copied ordinances, doctrines, and scriptures. Suppression of the free press. Nope, I am not impressed. I will learn from Joseph Smith and not do those things.

I am torn between being glad that the church seems to be a positive thing in your life and a desire to help you see what I see. I'm guessing you have moments where you are similarly torn. I don't believe in the gospel or in Christ's spirit, so I think those positives you see are not from what you think they are. But perception is reality in many ways.

Based on the scriptures I'm sure you think my heart is hard, but I think it is softer now than when I thought I knew who god was and what happened before and after we die. Now I "suspect" and "think" things rather than "know" and "believe" them. I think that this is more humble. It fits better with who I am.

I hope whatever you do continues to make you happy. We like having you in our lives too.

DS has a soccer game scheduled for tomorrow at 11am if you are available and want to come.

Thanks,
Linked

[Kishkumen]

Oh man, that is rough.

I suppose I feel fortunate (but I don't trust my feelings ) that I don't have these type of communications from close relatives/family.

It's tough. I know. It's really really tough.

You're a good man. Keep loving your family. Keep doing what is right. We're all here cheering for you.

[Corsair]

That's as well stated as it probably could have been. But I have to commend you for the particularly strong end to your message:

I hope whatever you do continues to make you happy. We like having you in our lives too.

DS has a soccer game scheduled for tomorrow at 11am if you are available and want to come.

Thanks,
Linked

You brought up the real goal to live happily and then ended with the practical application of that goal by attending DS's game. It's more important to keep up good relations with loving family members than prove religious dogma. There are a lot of mixed faith marriages on NOM, but mixed faith families and social groups are more common. Simply finding ways to live happily is a very practical way to live better than any way asserted by the church.

Good luck with your mother. I still miss mine every day.

[alas]

That is a common argument people use to inoculate people to Joseph’s “mistakes”. But from my perspective, being unfaithful to your wife the way Joseph was is more “mistake” than I can overlook. It isn’t a matter of forgiving him of “imperfections” but excusing blatant adultery, overlooking crime, using extreme spin to explain attempts to con people out of their money, absolving him of lies, and hiding the truth about Joseph. Even IF polygamy came from God, then the way Joseph treated his first wife and his other “wives” was wrong. There is testimony from more than one witness that Joseph sent his “wives” off to get abortions after getting them pregnant. That is one hell of a way to treat a “wife”. He never once attempted to support one of his polygamous “wives” but actually swindled a few out of what inheritance their father left them. Those are not the actions of an honorable man making mistakes, but a crook.

And obviously people using that argument have to minimize his crimes to make them forgivable mistakes, instead of crimes. So, to me, the argument holds no water. If you want to follow a crook instead of finding a prophet, have at it, but I just can’t do it. I would suggest that following this type of “prophet” leads people to drinking KoolAid. If you really look into Jim Jones, David Koresh, and other cult leaders, you will find they have a horrifying lot in common with Joseph Smith. But, don’t say THAT to your believing mother.

Anyway, I like what you said about using your feelings to determine truth just doesn’t work for you. And I liked how you said that you lost faith in God before looking at Joseph Smith. That lets her know kind of where you are coming from, that it isn’t just a matter of fixing your harshness toward Joesph.

There were parts of your reply that I thought were a bit harsh toward the church. When we get too critical of the church, people tend to get defensive and stop listening, so it becomes counter productive. So, I like to stick more with things that help them understand me and my thought process, rather than attack something they love. But it becomes such a fine line between saying what we think, and going into attacking what they love, that it is just hard. We feel like we can’t say anything without offending them, and the truth comes across as antiMormon. And we ARE angry, so it gets hard to be honest, but not angry, because honestly, we have good reason to be angry. Feel like a yo-yo yet?

But over all, some good progress toward getting her to see this isn’t a small matter of exaggerating Joseph’s mistakes or expecting him to be perfect, and isn’t just a stage you are going through, but something real.

[Red Ryder]

Ouch! Your mom sounds just like my mom. Cultural Mormonism at its finest.

My rules of engagement for responding to my family are as follows:

Rule #1: If it contains a scripture reference, don't reply back with anything more than a polite "thanks for your thoughts!"

Rule #2: If it contains a general conference, general authority, or any other general church reference, don't reply back with anything more than a polite "thanks for your thoughts".

Rule #3: If it contains a reference to genealogy, BYU football, callings, ministering, or any other Mormon hamster wheel topic, reply back with "wow, church must really keep you busy", followed by a polite "thanks for your thoughts".

Rule #4: learn how to make chit chat, small talk, and direct conversations to things you are interested in or things other than church that they are interested in. Know how to show kindness and love.

Rule #5: don't be held hostage to rebukes about unbelief, calls for repentance, genealogy stories, temple guilt trips, etc. DONT BE A HOSTAGE to their rantings. They don't allow me to tell them the truth.

Can you all see why I don't talk to family very often? It sucks because I love them all and want to have strong relationships, but I refuse to engage with shallow narrow minded Mormons who only know how to talk about church.

Church isn't life, and life isn't church!
Church isn't my life, but living life is my church!

[wtfluff]

Here's my sarcastic reply to your mom:

Mom, you believe that that feelings = truth, correct? If you visited the doctor, and the doctor "had a feeling" that you needed surgery immediately, would you follow them right in to the surgery room?


(I hope to kolob that I never have any conversations like this with my mother. My parents were religious hermits, I never learned any social skills or conversation skills from them. It wouldn't end well. If it ever does happen, then I shall attempt to follow the Ryder of Red's rules...)

[Linked]

Her response was short and did not go into anything of substance. But she came to DS's game, so we will keep being family.

Oh man, that is rough.

I suppose I feel fortunate (but I don't trust my feelings ) that I don't have these type of communications from close relatives/family.

It's tough. I know. It's really really tough.

You're a good man. Keep loving your family. Keep doing what is right. We're all here cheering for you.

Thanks for the support Kish. I am pretty fortunate with my family, these comments are rare and typically as loving as possible considering what the church tells them. Also, we are all committed to making a relationship work in spite of our differences, just figuring it out.

That's as well stated as it probably could have been. But I have to commend you for the particularly strong end to your message:

I hope whatever you do continues to make you happy. We like having you in our lives too.

DS has a soccer game scheduled for tomorrow at 11am if you are available and want to come.

Thanks,
Linked

You brought up the real goal to live happily and then ended with the practical application of that goal by attending DS's game. It's more important to keep up good relations with loving family members than prove religious dogma. There are a lot of mixed faith marriages on NOM, but mixed faith families and social groups are more common. Simply finding ways to live happily is a very practical way to live better than any way asserted by the church.

Good luck with your mother. I still miss mine every day.

Thanks, it is interesting how each side re-frames the other sides comments. What I mean is that when my mom brings things up about how church and faith and religion and spirituality make her happy, I translate it into my frame of reference that her tribe, the feelings she gets from believing what she believes, etc., give her a feeling she calls happiness. Then she does similar things with my comments about thinking, not trusting my feelings, claiming this is who I am, are translated to her frame of reference that I shut out the spirit and don't realize that I am a child of God.

But an invitation is an invitation. There may be subtext, but it is still out there.

That is a common argument people use to inoculate people to Joseph’s “mistakes”. But from my perspective, being unfaithful to your wife the way Joseph was is more “mistake” than I can overlook. It isn’t a matter of forgiving him of “imperfections” but excusing blatant adultery, overlooking crime, using extreme spin to explain attempts to con people out of their money, absolving him of lies, and hiding the truth about Joseph. Even IF polygamy came from God, then the way Joseph treated his first wife and his other “wives” was wrong. There is testimony from more than one witness that Joseph sent his “wives” off to get abortions after getting them pregnant. That is one hell of a way to treat a “wife”. He never once attempted to support one of his polygamous “wives” but actually swindled a few out of what inheritance their father left them. Those are not the actions of an honorable man making mistakes, but a crook.

And obviously people using that argument have to minimize his crimes to make them forgivable mistakes, instead of crimes. So, to me, the argument holds no water. If you want to follow a crook instead of finding a prophet, have at it, but I just can’t do it. I would suggest that following this type of “prophet” leads people to drinking KoolAid. If you really look into Jim Jones, David Koresh, and other cult leaders, you will find they have a horrifying lot in common with Joseph Smith. But, don’t say THAT to your believing mother.

Anyway, I like what you said about using your feelings to determine truth just doesn’t work for you. And I liked how you said that you lost faith in God before looking at Joseph Smith. That lets her know kind of where you are coming from, that it isn’t just a matter of fixing your harshness toward Joesph.

There were parts of your reply that I thought were a bit harsh toward the church. When we get too critical of the church, people tend to get defensive and stop listening, so it becomes counter productive. So, I like to stick more with things that help them understand me and my thought process, rather than attack something they love. But it becomes such a fine line between saying what we think, and going into attacking what they love, that it is just hard. We feel like we can’t say anything without offending them, and the truth comes across as antiMormon. And we ARE angry, so it gets hard to be honest, but not angry, because honestly, we have good reason to be angry. Feel like a yo-yo yet?

But over all, some good progress toward getting her to see this isn’t a small matter of exaggerating Joseph’s mistakes or expecting him to be perfect, and isn’t just a stage you are going through, but something real.

I appreciate your perspective on JS, you are right that you just can't say it to a TBM without destroying the conversation. Regarding my harshness, you are right, but I was tired and she started it . But I was honest.

Ouch! Your mom sounds just like my mom. Cultural Mormonism at its finest.

My rules of engagement for responding to my family are as follows:

Rule #1: If it contains a scripture reference, don't reply back with anything more than a polite "thanks for your thoughts!"

Rule #2: If it contains a general conference, general authority, or any other general church reference, don't reply back with anything more than a polite "thanks for your thoughts".

Rule #3: If it contains a reference to genealogy, BYU football, callings, ministering, or any other Mormon hamster wheel topic, reply back with "wow, church must really keep you busy", followed by a polite "thanks for your thoughts".

Rule #4: learn how to make chit chat, small talk, and direct conversations to things you are interested in or things other than church that they are interested in. Know how to show kindness and love.

Rule #5: don't be held hostage to rebukes about unbelief, calls for repentance, genealogy stories, temple guilt trips, etc. DONT BE A HOSTAGE to their rantings. They don't allow me to tell them the truth.

Can you all see why I don't talk to family very often? It sucks because I love them all and want to have strong relationships, but I refuse to engage with shallow narrow minded Mormons who only know how to talk about church.

Church isn't life, and life isn't church!
Church isn't my life, but living life is my church!

Good advice, I may get there someday. For now I will continue to kick against the pricks. I like your "Don't be a hostage" comment, fair is fair.

Here's my sarcastic reply to your mom:

Mom, you believe that that feelings = truth, correct? If you visited the doctor, and the doctor "had a feeling" that you needed surgery immediately, would you follow them right in to the surgery room?


(I hope to kolob that I never have any conversations like this with my mother. My parents were religious hermits, I never learned any social skills or conversation skills from them. It wouldn't end well. If it ever does happen, then I shall attempt to follow the Ryder of Red's rules...)

Haha, I don't think I would want to hear the answer to that question, cause it could be crazy...

[wtfluff]

Here's my sarcastic reply to your mom:

Mom, you believe that that feelings = truth, correct? If you visited the doctor, and the doctor "had a feeling" that you needed surgery immediately, would you follow them right in to the surgery room?


(I hope to kolob that I never have any conversations like this with my mother. My parents were religious hermits, I never learned any social skills or conversation skills from them. It wouldn't end well. If it ever does happen, then I shall attempt to follow the Ryder of Red's rules...)

Haha, I don't think I would want to hear the answer to that question, cause it could be crazy...

Whether or not your mom answers the question, and/or how crazy her answer is doesn't matter.

The goal is to get her to actually think about her epistemology of: Feelings=Truth, or Feelings=Fact, and realize that reality does not work that way.



Edit: Funny coincidence. Minutes after posting this reply, I saw a post elsewhere which stated: Facts don't care about your feelings.

[dogbite]

There's a lesser movie that I always liked, Tequila Sunrise. Blood is not thicker than water.

Warning, lots of harsh language.

https://youtu.be/TfZfbjn_rmk

[jfro18]

Edit: Funny coincidence. Minutes after posting this reply, I saw a post elsewhere which stated: Facts don't care about your feelings.

Yeah the "Facts don't care about your feelings" line is so great except it goes right over the heads of the people you want to hear it.

And it's true- facts simply do not matter if your attachment is emotional, and that is the most frustrating thing about religion, politics, whatever.

I have been saying something along the lines of "facts don't matter anymore if people confuse emotions for truth" for a few years to my wife, but I am 99.9% sure when I say it now that she assumes I'm taking a dig at the church. And she's right that I do feel that way about church as well... but it's always about something completely unrelated to church or else I wouldn't be dumb enough to say that so directly.