Russell's Long Journey out of Mormonism

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Russell's Long Journey out of Mormonism

Post by Linked » Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:45 am

Late 1989: "I don't see anywhere is the scriptures where it calls us 'Mormons', but there is a place where the Lord tells us His divine name. 'Mormon' is not the name we should be calling the church. I feel strongly about this and I am an Apostle of God, I'd better warn the people."

"Thus Shall My Church Be Called" - Russel M. Nelson

6 months pass

"Mormon Should Mean 'More Good'" - Gordon B. Hinckley

"Are serious Gordon!? Do you not even read the D&C bro? You told them to read my talk and then totally ripped what apart what I said! Sure, everyone knows us as Mormons and the other name is filled with hubris, but if God didn't want hubris He wouldn't have named the church what He did. Maybe from a business and PR perspective we are throwing away years and millions of dollars, but dammit Jim I'm a doctor not a magician! Gordon must be losing his mind in his old age."

28 years pass

"Haha! Who's 'More Good' now?! God must want my message more than old Gordo's because guess who His prophet is? That's right, me. :twisted:

What would a good name for this talk be? Hmmm, let's get creative here. I can't just name it the same thing as the last one, that's too obvious. How about 'The Name of the Church'? Hey Wendy, what do you think? 'The Right Name of the Church'? Oh yeah that's nice and demanding, but let's make it a little more formal, 'The Correct Name of the Church'. Perfect"

The Correct Name of the Church - Russel M. Nelson
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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Re: Russell's Long Journey out of Mormonism

Post by Corsair » Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:22 am

I really wonder how much this assertion of the proper and full name of the church was weighed against inevitable consequences. You would think that Russell and company had at least 28 years to think about it.

For example, all of the FLDS plural marriage groups can simply own the name "Mormon" going forward. The institutional "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" has long distanced itself from those faithful pracitioners of plural marriage. President Nelson can hardly tell them to stop called themselves "Mormon" at this point. A century of social pressure has not convinced the Jeffs, Wooleys, Allreds, and other families to stop practicing Joseph's and Brigham's favorite covenant. Having the head of their rival church admonish them to change their name certainly won't work now.

As stated frequently and humorously on reddit.com/r/exmormon, "We are all Ex-Mormons now". This is one more case where the consequences of Russell's directive will simply have to be endured. When I call everyone in Elders Quorum "Ex-Mormon", there will be a quick response from all of them and I will savor their salty rhetoric. Will the church wifi unblock Reddit along with exmormon.org and other Mormon themed sites?

Let's also not forget that Nelson's firm denunciation of "Mormon" comes almost exactly 4 years after "Meet the Mormons" was rushed into theaters for our edification on October 10, 2014. Some zealous and wealthy Mormons bought out whole theaters. Youth groups had movie nights with the same fervor as a temple trip. Some fervent believers dressed in their Sunday best and took their scriptures with them. This was also the final, triumphant year of the "I'm a Mormon" campaign. I'm not so opposed to precise nomenclature as I am to completely ignoring the very recent public display of affection towards being Mormon.

The church gets to sit in this uncomfortable position at this point. If someone asks if I am Mormon I get to openly and honestly tell them No as I head to get more coffee in the office. Now I'm excited for what Russell is going to say in the next six months that will make my church experience all the more interesting.


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Re: Russell's Long Journey out of Mormonism

Post by Fifi de la Vergne » Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:32 pm

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:55 am
Well done video collage of both Gordon and Russ' talks:

https://youtu.be/2lKQrYUE3yc
The editing on this is brilliant and provides better commentary than anything else I've seen.

On a side note: I really miss Hinckley and his wry self-deprecatory humor. Nelson suffers badly from the side-by-side comparison with him.
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Re: Russell's Long Journey out of Mormonism

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:35 pm

Fifi de la Vergne wrote:
FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:55 am
Well done video collage of both Gordon and Russ' talks:

https://youtu.be/2lKQrYUE3yc
The editing on this is brilliant and provides better commentary than anything else I've seen.

On a side note: I really miss Hinckley and his wry self-deprecatory humor. Nelson suffers from the side-by-side comparison with him.
A non-lds commentor even mentioned that Hinkley's inspirational style of speaking made him seem worthy to follow more than Nelson.

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Re: Russell's Long Journey out of Mormonism

Post by Hagoth » Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:43 pm

I wonder how Pres. Nelson would explain why Joseph Smith changed the name of the church to The Church of Latter Day Saints, and why God allowed it to remain that way for four years (The Evening and Morning Star, vol. 2, no. 20, p. 160, May 1834; History of the Church 2:62), and why before that Jesus had insisted that it should be called The Church of Christ. The reason given for changing the name from The Church of Christ to the Church of Latter Day Saints was that too many people were already calling themselves the Church of Christ. Apparently God didn't see that one coming and didn't seem to think it wasn't a victory for Satan to let his prophet leave the name of Jesus out of it.
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Re: Russell's Long Journey out of Mormonism

Post by Linked » Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:59 pm

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:55 am
Well done video collage of both Gordon and Russ' talks:

https://youtu.be/2lKQrYUE3yc
That's great! Thanks for sharing. I know Hinckley came with his own problems, but the church he led was much better than what we have today.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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Re: Russell's Long Journey out of Mormonism

Post by Random » Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:40 pm

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:55 am
Well done video collage of both Gordon and Russ' talks:

https://youtu.be/2lKQrYUE3yc
It's interesting how they show Hinckley smiling, almost in a mocking manner, near the end of Nelson's words, like he could really hear him (even though he wasn't actually mocking anyone in his talk).

The video made me miss Hinckley. I had forgotten how much I liked him. He had a gentle good humor that no successor has had.
[They] which knew me from the beginning . . . would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
Acts 26:5

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Re: Russell's Long Journey out of Mormonism

Post by Not Buying It » Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:47 am

Random wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:40 pm
FiveFingerMnemonic wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:55 am
Well done video collage of both Gordon and Russ' talks:

https://youtu.be/2lKQrYUE3yc
It's interesting how they show Hinckley smiling, almost in a mocking manner, near the end of Nelson's words, like he could really hear him (even though he wasn't actually mocking anyone in his talk).

The video made me miss Hinckley. I had forgotten how much I liked him. He had a gentle good humor that no successor has had.
Hmmmfff. Gentle good humor of the type where he would wear his wide, friendly grin while kicking you in the balls. "Beware the evil behind the smiling eyes" Elder Anderson said, and this was particularly true of President Hinckley, who played the part of warm, friendly Grandpa while leading an oppressive organization that mowed down dissidents, actively persecuted the LGBT community, dealt in lies and deceptions about its history, and ignored and minimized serious historical and doctrinal problems. Much of the credibility crisis the Church experiences today is the direct result of the years he led the Church. He was as bad as any of them, he just knew how to smile while doing it. He was like Elder Uchtdorf - as rotten as the rest, just better at PR. He was just Elder Oaks with a pleasant veneer.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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Re: Russell's Long Journey out of Mormonism

Post by crazyhamster » Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:50 am

I only had the briefest of direct interactions with Hinckley in person, at the temple dedication in Halifax N.S. He came across as rather impatient, dismissive, and aloof. After the dedication, he was whisked away in his hired limo with nary a wave to the crowd gathered around to wave goodbye. An expert in PR, indeed.

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Re: Russell's Long Journey out of Mormonism

Post by blazerb » Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:42 am

Random wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:40 pm
The video made me miss Hinckley. I had forgotten how much I liked him. He had a gentle good humor that no successor has had.
You should listen to the Mormon Stories interview with Hans Mattsson. Hinckley was a different person when he was in CEO mode.

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Re: Russell's Long Journey out of Mormonism

Post by deacon blues » Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:56 am

Yeah, Mattson says the same in his new book. I just got it on my kindle.
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Re: Russell's Long Journey out of Mormonism

Post by moksha » Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:30 pm

I did this because the Lord impressed upon my mind the importance of the name He decreed for His Church, Even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
-- President Russell M. Nelson
Hope you Eveners can appreciate this change.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Re: Russell's Long Journey out of Mormonism

Post by Not Buying It » Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:12 am

moksha wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:30 pm
I did this because the Lord impressed upon my mind the importance of the name He decreed for His Church, Even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
-- President Russell M. Nelson
Hope you Eveners can appreciate this change.
President Nelson is so incredibly pretentious. Every idea that has popped into his head over the last few decades he finally has a chance to put into practice is “the Lord impressing” something on his mind. He gets up in the middle of the night and scribbles his random thoughts down and Aunt Wendy gushes about being sent into the next room so as not to interrupt the revelatory process. He rearranges deck chairs on the Titanic and everyone is oh so impressed with all of the big changes he is making.

Meanwhile, he still is cosmically unable to heal the sick with his mighty prophetic powers, we still get a big “we don’t know” if anyone wants to know why it was OK for Joseph to screw around with women or why the Church discriminated against blacks for so long, last I checked he hadn’t called President Trump to repentance like his scriptural colleagues were always calling leaders of nations to repentance when they fornicated and adulterated, and the leak of members leaving continues unabated while the man at the top fools himself and those who still believe in him that he is getting important revelations.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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Re: Russell's Long Journey out of Mormonism

Post by Random » Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:47 pm

So, sort of like good cop-bad cop all rolled up in the same person?

Not Buying It wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:47 am
Gentle good humor of the type where he would wear his wide, friendly grin while kicking you in the balls. "Beware the evil behind the smiling eyes" Elder Anderson said, and this was particularly true of President Hinckley, who played the part of warm, friendly Grandpa while leading an oppressive organization that mowed down dissidents, actively persecuted the LGBT community, dealt in lies and deceptions about its history, and ignored and minimized serious historical and doctrinal problems. Much of the credibility crisis the Church experiences today is the direct result of the years he led the Church. He was as bad as any of them, he just knew how to smile while doing it.
[They] which knew me from the beginning . . . would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
Acts 26:5

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Re: Russell's Long Journey out of Mormonism

Post by Random » Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:48 pm

Now I am disillusioned. :(
crazyhamster wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:50 am
He came across as rather impatient, dismissive, and aloof.
[They] which knew me from the beginning . . . would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
Acts 26:5

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Re: Russell's Long Journey out of Mormonism

Post by Random » Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:49 pm

Yes, I will have to do that.
blazerb wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:42 am
You should listen to the Mormon Stories interview with Hans Mattsson. Hinckley was a different person when he was in CEO mode.
[They] which knew me from the beginning . . . would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
Acts 26:5

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Re: Russell's Long Journey out of Mormonism

Post by Random » Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:51 pm

Not Buying It, you make a good point about him not calling political leaders to repentance like the old prophets did to kings.
[They] which knew me from the beginning . . . would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
Acts 26:5

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Re: Russell's Long Journey out of Mormonism

Post by Not Buying It » Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:34 am

Random wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:47 pm
So, sort of like good cop-bad cop all rolled up in the same person?

Not Buying It wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:47 am
Gentle good humor of the type where he would wear his wide, friendly grin while kicking you in the balls. "Beware the evil behind the smiling eyes" Elder Anderson said, and this was particularly true of President Hinckley, who played the part of warm, friendly Grandpa while leading an oppressive organization that mowed down dissidents, actively persecuted the LGBT community, dealt in lies and deceptions about its history, and ignored and minimized serious historical and doctrinal problems. Much of the credibility crisis the Church experiences today is the direct result of the years he led the Church. He was as bad as any of them, he just knew how to smile while doing it.
Kind of - good cop while everyone's watching and bad cop behind the scenes. Every single one of the Brethren is perpetuating a toxic culture - some of them are better at PR and putting on a friendly front, but there isn't a one of them that hasn't ruthlessly imposed severe family and social consequences on those who have dissented from the Church. President Hinkcley and President Uchtdorf were better at giving you warm, happy feelings than Elder Bednar or Elder Oaks, but they did the same despicable things. Don't let the friendly smiles fool you - they would threaten to take away your family for eternity in a heartbeat if they thought you threatened them, and what kind of an evil person would do that?
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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Re: Russell's Long Journey out of Mormonism

Post by Reuben » Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:25 am

Not Buying It wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:34 am
Random wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:47 pm
So, sort of like good cop-bad cop all rolled up in the same person?

Not Buying It wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:47 am
Gentle good humor of the type where he would wear his wide, friendly grin while kicking you in the balls. "Beware the evil behind the smiling eyes" Elder Anderson said, and this was particularly true of President Hinckley, who played the part of warm, friendly Grandpa while leading an oppressive organization that mowed down dissidents, actively persecuted the LGBT community, dealt in lies and deceptions about its history, and ignored and minimized serious historical and doctrinal problems. Much of the credibility crisis the Church experiences today is the direct result of the years he led the Church. He was as bad as any of them, he just knew how to smile while doing it.
Kind of - good cop while everyone's watching and bad cop behind the scenes. Every single one of the Brethren is perpetuating a toxic culture - some of them are better at PR and putting on a friendly front, but there isn't a one of them that hasn't ruthlessly imposed severe family and social consequences on those who have dissented from the Church. President Hinkcley and President Uchtdorf were better at giving you warm, happy feelings than Elder Bednar or Elder Oaks, but they did the same despicable things. Don't let the friendly smiles fool you - they would threaten to take away your family for eternity in a heartbeat if they thought you threatened them, and what kind of an evil person would do that?
The kind that think they're charged with preserving everyone else's eternity. The kind whose identities are so entangled with an organization that a threat to it feels like a threat to their person. The kind who choose fear over faith because God hasn't seemed all that interested in helping people stay. The kind who worship an abusive god who will reject everyone who leaves and everyone who let it happen. The kind who don't realize that their god is actually Mormonism itself.

I can't bring myself to label the men themselves evil. I can say that ignorance, fear and shame have led them to do great evil in the name of God. I hope I would do better in their position, but I don't think I could have been selected.
You were born to trust, not fear. It is your birthright.

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