Faith Crisis Report

[RubinHighlander]

I may misunderstand the GA mindset, but could this be a reason Elder Uchtdorf was demoted from the First Presidency? Do some leaders see those who have empathy as being part of the problem?

I think it was. It seems like he might have been conflicted over the data - he was calling out past leaders on their mistakes, promoting a kinder approach toward the disaffected but them also telling everyone to doubt their doubts. Could he also have asked to step down? I also find it hard to believe that if Uchtdorf saw this report it was not shared with everyone.

[Just This Guy]

I love that this is a bullet point: "When factoring median income for these Faith Crisis respondents, the Church
incurs an estimated tithing-revenue loss of $281 Million over ten years (at $2.5
million per chapel, that represents a theoretical loss of 112 chapels)"

The sad part is that as much money as the church makes, this is not a significant issue for them. I have seen various estimates about church tithing income and they range from $5 to 25 billion in tithing per year. That much of loss of tithing, is only about a 1 to 5 % loss in revenue. Really, it's is worth noting, but not much on the overall scale of things. It's even smaller when you factor in all the money they make from all their other sources. Investments, stocks, real estate holdings, business ventures, etc. Why have they been slow to respond, because overall, the loss of revenue is little more than pocket change.

What is more interesting, however, is the growth. You have a very nice geometric curve in shown there. If that trend continues, it is going to grow FAST!!

Even end end message of the slideshow is to give up trying to control the message, but focus on how they treat the people who leave. That message has obviously fallen on deaf ears.

Could part of DFU's demotion been that he had the audacity to point out that not all was well in Zion? If Sam Young has taught us anything, the worst thing to do is to show the Q15 that they are wrong. Could DFU been the one to try to do that and got a slap on the wrist as a result?

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

I love that this is a bullet point: "When factoring median income for these Faith Crisis respondents, the Church
incurs an estimated tithing-revenue loss of $281 Million over ten years (at $2.5
million per chapel, that represents a theoretical loss of 112 chapels)"

The sad part is that as much money as the church makes, this is not a significant issue for them. I have seen various estimates about church tithing income and they range from $5 to 25 billion in tithing per year. That much of loss of tithing, is only about a 1 to 5 % loss in revenue. Really, it's is worth noting, but not much on the overall scale of things. It's even smaller when you factor in all the money they make from all their other sources. Investments, stocks, real estate holdings, business ventures, etc. Why have they been slow to respond, because overall, the loss of revenue is little more than pocket change.

What is more interesting, however, is the growth. You have a very nice geometric curve in shown there. If that trend continues, it is going to grow FAST!!

Even end end message of the slideshow is to give up trying to control the message, but focus on how they treat the people who leave. That message has obviously fallen on deaf ears.

Could part of DFU's demotion been that he had the audacity to point out that not all was well in Zion? If Sam Young has taught us anything, the worst thing to do is to show the Q15 that they are wrong. Could DFU been the one to try to do that and got a slap on the wrist as a result?

Reminds me of BH Roberts attempts to point out BOM problems to the Q15 and they just bore their testimony.

[Reuben]

I wonder if this influenced DFU's October 2013 talk, Come, join with us.

That was the "Doubt your doubts" talk and I think we can all see how effective that bit of advice truly was. As others have noted, this was the response of a guy who is revered as a prophet, see, and revelator. I like Dieter and would enjoy his compassion showing up more in church governance. But this talk was the ecclesiastic version of "mistakes were made, but not by us".

This part of his talk leads me to believe that he took at least some of the information seriously:

One might ask, “If the gospel is so wonderful, why would anyone leave?”

Sometimes we assume it is because they have been offended or lazy or sinful. Actually, it is not that simple. In fact, there is not just one reason that applies to the variety of situations.

Some of our dear members struggle for years with the question whether they should separate themselves from the Church.

[w2mz]

They fucking know all the problems.
They've known since 2013
This the fucking best they can do 5 fucking years later?

This.

If they’ve really truly had this information for that long, and they’ve done nothing to help support/counsel couples where one spouse is in a FC, then “F” them.

They are responsible for pain, depression, marital strain, familial relationship damage, divorce, for so many members. This is so telling.

5 years and they’ve done nothing to help, only attempt to save their position and keep the sheep paying.

My marriage has suffered tremendously. I’ve been through the dark night of the soul. I’m collateral damage to them apparently.

Just infuriates me.

[Mackman]

Right on w2mz. If they have known this long then "F" them !!!! I left 18 months ago and glad I did even though I am still forced to attend with my wife , I can still sit and think F them the whole time !!!!!. My little niche !! Bunch of. A holes anyway.

[IT_Veteran]

They fucking know all the problems.
They've known since 2013
This the fucking best they can do 5 fucking years later?

This.

If they’ve really truly had this information for that long, and they’ve done nothing to help support/counsel couples where one spouse is in a FC, then “F” them.

They are responsible for pain, depression, marital strain, familial relationship damage, divorce, for so many members. This is so telling.

5 years and they’ve done nothing to help, only attempt to save their position and keep the sheep paying.

My marriage has suffered tremendously. I’ve been through the dark night of the soul. I’m collateral damage to them apparently.

Just infuriates me.

I listened to a very recent MS episode where the interviewee said they wrote Uchtdorf a letter after he was divorced. This was after U's talk, so he would have already seen the report (if he indeed has seen it). He just asked Uchtdorf to, in conference, reassure spouses that a faith crisis or apostasy alone should not be reason for divorce; if you're in a loving, committed relationship stay in it despite someone's change in faith.

The letter he got back just made him mad: Uchtdorf actually responded and invited him back to church. Said he was welcome even with his doubts, but declined to address any of his concerns about family and how much harm is being done.

Damn straight they know the cost. If they relieved doubters of that cost though, they'd have less incentive to fake it and keep attending.

[Corsair]

I listened to a very recent MS episode where the interviewee said they wrote Uchtdorf a letter after he was divorced. This was after U's talk, so he would have already seen the report (if he indeed has seen it). He just asked Uchtdorf to, in conference, reassure spouses that a faith crisis or apostasy alone should not be reason for divorce; if you're in a loving, committed relationship stay in it despite someone's change in faith.

The letter he got back just made him mad: Uchtdorf actually responded and invited him back to church. Said he was welcome even with his doubts, but declined to address any of his concerns about family and how much harm is being done.

Damn straight they know the cost. If they relieved doubters of that cost though, they'd have less incentive to fake it and keep attending.

With any remaining faith I might have in the LDS church, I do pray every six months that some prophetic soul will give this message in general conference. It's not like he has to make up some lame story. He just has to quote 1 Corinthians 7:12-14

12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.

13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.

14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

This would be a transformative message for my marriage and for many others. My faith remains in vain.

[IT_Veteran]

This would be a transformative message for my marriage and for many others. My faith remains in vain.

At this point, I don't think they can claim it's accidental. They'll counsel abuse victims to reconcile with their abusers and stay in the marriage, but when it comes to apostasy, they're not qualified to give marriage advice.

[jfro18]

With any remaining faith I might have in the LDS church, I do pray every six months that some prophetic soul will give this message in general conference. It's not like he has to make up some lame story. He just has to quote 1 Corinthians 7:12-14

12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.

13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.

14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

This would be a transformative message for my marriage and for many others. My faith remains in vain.

When I mention how the church has taught that a wife of a non-believing husband will be given to another in the CK (thanks Joseph F Smith), my wife points to this as her way of saying we might be together after we die after all because she can still save me.

I think she has to know that this church doesn't believe it, but she needs to have that to hang on to. Just another reason why I think she clings so tightly as I've gone further away from it.

[IT_Veteran]

When I mention how the church has taught that a wife of a non-believing husband will be given to another in the CK (thanks Joseph F Smith), my wife points to this as her way of saying we might be together after we die after all because she can still save me.

I think she has to know that this church doesn't believe it, but she needs to have that to hang on to. Just another reason why I think she clings so tightly as I've gone further away from it.

That statement from Joseph F Smith pushed my wife away from the church faster than anything. She actually had a copy of the book and found the complete quote in context (spoiler alert - the context doesn't help). She said she'd rather be in a different kingdom than given to another man to be his polygamous wife. That gave her permission in her own mind to start really looking at the doctrines and teachings she'd never heard before.

She's not a Mormon in her heart anymore.

[DPRoberts]

I think there's a distinction that needs to be made regarding what the church knows and doesn't know.

First, this wasn't a commissioned review and report by the Q15. This was a report by a team of volunteers and allegedly given to a 70 and funneled up to Uchtdorf. There's no evidence this was actually read by anyone in the Q15. This doesn't give them a break or excuse their behavior and lack of compassion towards all of us that have been to hell and back through our FC journey.

Second, this just gives the church it's usual "plausible deniability" which Ballard seems to be promoting in his travels. He's speaking to congregations telling everyone "see, we are as transparent as we know how to be..."

I'm not going to expect the church leadership to do any of the suggestions in these documents. That would be too easy and the right thing. I'm going to expect the church leadership to hunker down and cover their collective ears and yell, "neener neener", we can't hear you and hope this little problem goes away!

I think you are right about this being a volunteer effort, RR. It mentions that scholars "donated countless hours" developing this thing. If the church formerly known as LDS actually paid for this there would be no release of it. This seems to have been a labor of love on the part of some concerned people, and I hope it's a sleeper that eventually finds its target audience. Of all the 15, I think DFU has shown the most compassion around this issue despite "doubt your doubts". So maybe this document can have an impact if it gets read.

This report to me is a well-crafted exercise in speaking truth to power. The language used by the authors is clearly jargon used by church insiders and directed toward them. "Faith" for example, means "belief in the claims of the church". And the term "uncorrelated" has different meanings to different readers, and I think that was deliberate. TBM leaders will see "antiCOJCOLDS" and they won't have their worldview disrupted. Later in the report the authors allow the disaffected to point out that "correlation" is a euphemism for institutional lying. The same goes for the rest of the hard hitting truths that the brethren would rather ignore and hope the magic of the church's true name will overcome all . Those truths are allowed to come through the words of the disaffected.

It will be interesting to what long-term impact this document may have. Potentially it could become the manifesto of the new order/liahona/internet/progressive varieties of COJCOLDSers. And its power is in a message that the report so far as I have read it (not done yet) does not explicitly state.

edit: spelling

[Arcturus]

In another online NOMish discussion group, someone purported to know a few people who were behind the creation of this project and its presentation at the COB. This individual confirmed what I suspected based on the quote at the beginning of the presentation - that Clayton Christensen of the Harvard Business School was pretty involved in this project. Really cool, I love Christensen!

However, this individual also noted that those involved in this project only got the audience of (then Pres) Uchtdorf, that none of the other Q15 were in attendance. Just thought I'd share, since folks here are upset that supposedly the Q15 received this report and so little has changed. The fact of the matter is that (unfortunately) it's likely that most of the Q15 have not given attention to this research nor anything else that breaches the depth of Mormon faith crisis, like they should. This could also speak to the motivation behind Uchtdorf's demotion from the 1stP - he was entertaining discussions, negotiations, possibly conceding that the church should change to people who sympathize with those who leave the church. He was certainly sympathetic in his 2013 GC talk.

[Arcturus]

On the topic of Clayton Christensen... I've wondered why he hasn't risen to the ranks of area authority or even general authority for that matter, given his serious life accomplishments and respect amongst the business-academic and big business communities. The church is all about big business right?

To the extent that Christensen was heavily involved in this research, to me it suggests that he may be a fairly NOMish figure himself, and that may be known by higher ups in the church, which could explain Christensen's lack of ascension in the Mormon hierarchy.

All this is speculative, but nevertheless still fun to speculate about...

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

In another online NOMish discussion group, someone purported to know a few people who were behind the creation of this project and its presentation at the COB. This individual confirmed what I suspected based on the quote at the beginning of the presentation - that Clayton Christensen of the Harvard Business School was pretty involved in this project. Really cool, I love Christensen!

However, this individual also noted that those involved in this project only got the audience of (then Pres) Uchtdorf, that none of the other Q15 were in attendance. Just thought I'd share, since folks here are upset that supposedly the Q15 received this report and so little has changed. The fact of the matter is that (unfortunately) it's likely that most of the Q15 have not given attention to this research nor anything else that breaches the depth of Mormon faith crisis, like they should. This could also speak to the motivation behind Uchtdorf's demotion from the 1stP - he was entertaining discussions, negotiations, possibly conceding that the church should change to people who sympathize with those who leave the church. He was certainly sympathetic in his 2013 GC talk.

I agree, I think Uchtdorf's experiences and behaviors after 2013 are evidence that he is the only one somewhat enlightened by this data. Or perhaps he is the only one sympathetic to the situation presented by it.

[jfro18]

Maybe I'm being too naive with this, but the reasons this report are so eye-opening to me are:

1. The Q15 might not have all read it, but they know the problems are there and either refuse to listen or refuse to address them
2. A lot of the scholars here have been influential in the church. That means people in CES/area leaders/etc are aware of these issues and keep telling members they are anti-Mormon lies
3. It undercuts the church narratives not just in history, but the reasons why people leave. Again, maybe they don't all know this but they were (as far as we know) given this report. If they chose to ignore it, that's telling as well.

I know the Q15 are out of touch, but I also feel like they're aware of these things and are either actively ignoring them or just don't care.

And not to jump tracks here, but combine this with how Wendy Nelson basically just admitted that RMN is just doing the things he's always wanted to do... you can see how hollow and powerless this church really is.

[Red Ryder]

Why do people continue to hold Uchtdorf up as some sort of Savior for the Disaffected? He's just as church broke as any of the others.

Here's an example of how information gets funneled up to the Q15:

Church research division analyst: tithing receipts are down 29% year over year, member discord is up on average 11% per quarter, and tattoos and tank tops are becoming more visible in Utah County neighborhoods Saturday mornings while members are mowing their lawns.

Mid level area authority: Thanks for the info, Brother Peterson! I'll return and report the Labors of your analysis. Walking down the marbled corridors of the COB, (Clippity, clop, clippity, clop.... Knock knock knock...)

Q70 President: what is wanted?

MLAA: sir, the research has come back and membership is trending towards a lack of commitment to temple covenants, daily commitments to reading scriptures, and apparently members have too much time on their hands on Saturday mornings.

Q70: Thanks for the info, Elder Stewart! I'll return and report the Labors of your analysis. Walking down the marbled corridors of the COB, (Clippity, clop, limp, limp, clippity, clop, limp, limp.... Knock knock knock...)

Q12 Apostle: what is wanted?

Q70 President: sir, the research has come back and membership loved your last general conference talk! You should get accolades on Facebook 70 time 7!

Q12: yes, the spirit of The Lord has spoken through me, his special witness! The work rolls forth like a stone cut from the mountain! Let's go down to the temple cafeteria and celebrate with some pudding!

[2bizE]

They fucking know all the problems.
They've known since 2013
This the fucking best they can do 5 fucking years later?

The man who read the report is not in charge. So, for right now we get ministering, 2 hour church, and pageant changes to help solve the problem of faith crisis.