Endure to the End

This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
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slavereeno
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Endure to the End

Post by slavereeno » Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:41 am

So, my activity here has waned considerably over the past few months. I was glad of a place to come and deconstruct. Lately, I have realized that I am in this for the long haul. I don't think any of my loved ones will change, at least I see no signs of it. I am surrounded by 100% TBMs on all sides. I shouldn't speak for DW, she would say she doesn't know where she is, that being said she insists on keeping the status quo all the same.

I am out as far as my beliefs. I don't believe the church's claims, at all. Even when I don't have the exact explanation of how things may have happened in church history, there are a dozen much more plausible explanations for them then what the church is pushing.

However, from the few family and friends whom I have been "allowed" to tell of my disaffection, there is a CONSTANT push back to the church and to its priorities. Its then assumed that if I stay silent I have "come to my senses" and am back in the fold. I am really tired of defending myself. If I express my belief or disagree with a church doctrine or policy all HELL breaks loose! Then DW and I fight and then things are weird between us. I feel like EVERYTHING I do is hyper-scrutinized. I used the word "butt" the other day and that spiraled into a big argument! I am really, really tired of any and all things associated with Mormonism. Sometimes I feel like I am at my wit's end.

This is what I am doing to keep the peace:
  • I attend church every Sunday
  • I hold 2 callings
  • I have a ministering assignment
  • I pay tithing
  • I support my child on a mission financially
  • I keep my disaffection to myself as much as possible
  • I wear my garments 24x7x365
  • I keep the WoW
  • I have to be aware of anything I say (more then ever)
  • I say nice things about the church around kids and relatives
  • I agree with everything the church does by my silence
  • I pray with family in the Mormon way several times each day
  • I study scriptures with the family
  • I sing in the ward choir (DW is the choir director)
  • I hold a temple recommend
  • I attend weddings in the temple
  • I feel guilty for missing the endowment session when an extended family member goes through for the first time
  • I pay for subscriptions to the Ensign, Friend, and the New Era (I don't even have a "Friend" aged child!)
  • I listen to most of Stake and General Conference
  • I live in my own head most of the time, I try not to share my frustration or feelings of isolation
Its World War III if I express even a hint of frustration at home. So thank you all for being here and for letting me vent.
Last edited by slavereeno on Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:56 am, edited 2 times in total.

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IT_Veteran
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Re: Endure to the End

Post by IT_Veteran » Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:47 am

I'm sorry you're stuck in that place. I've also enjoyed having this space to vent and discuss. My own activity here has waned of late, though for different reasons than your own. I've enjoyed your posts and the conversations with you here.

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Linked
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Re: Endure to the End

Post by Linked » Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:54 pm

"Endure" is right, that sounds awful! You are in an obviously unfair position.

Your post really highlights the success the church has at indoctrinating and trapping people. Your loved ones (mine too) are so bought in to what the church is selling that you rocking the boat is literally the worst thing ever. And you are stuck because you love your loved ones, and you know how much pain the boat-rocking causes. And their pain becomes your pain.

Hang in there Slavereeno. I understand your predicament, mine is similar, though I've expanded the walls of my cage a little bit. I have really enjoyed your posts, I selfishly hope you continue to come around.

I read a post on r/exmormon yesterday where some of the posters were discussing the word "should" and how it can cause a person to burden themselves. Someone suggested replacing "should" with "I would like to", thus taking the guilt inducing word out of it. That post and yours seem to be opposites. I doubt you could say that you would like to do any of the things on your list. But you seem to be at a point where you feel like you should do those things. I hope you can find a place in your relationships where you don't have to sacrifice so much to keep the peace. And when you find it let me know how you got there...
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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Angel
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Re: Endure to the End

Post by Angel » Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:23 pm

slavereeno wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:41 am

This is what I am doing to keep the peace:
  • I attend church every Sunday
  • I hold 2 callings
  • I have a ministering assignment
  • I pay tithing
  • I support my child on a mission financially
  • I keep my disaffection to myself as much as possible
  • I wear my garments 24x7x365
  • I keep the WoW
  • I have to be aware of anything I say (more then ever)
  • I say nice things about the church around kids and relatives
  • I agree with everything the church does by my silence
  • I pray with family in the Mormon way several times each day
  • I study scriptures with the family
  • I sing in the ward choir (DW is the choir director)
  • I hold a temple recommend
  • I attend weddings in the temple
  • I feel guilty for missing the endowment session when an extended family member goes through for the first time
  • I pay for subscriptions to the Ensign, Friend, and the New Era (I don't even have a "Friend" aged child!)
  • I listen to most of Stake and General Conference
  • I live in my own head most of the time, I try not to share my frustration or feelings of isolation
Its World War III if I express even a hint of frustration at home. So thank you all for being here and for letting me vent.
!!! wow, that is a long list, you are a more patient person than me, I'm down to a ministering assignment, and that is it. No TR, no callings, attend just sacrament.... I was forced to attend RS last Sunday with relatives in town and realized how long it had been.... they made me say prayer...

just.... wow... sending good vibes your way!
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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slavereeno
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Location: QC, AZ

Re: Endure to the End

Post by slavereeno » Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:36 pm

IT_Veteran wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:47 am
I'm sorry you're stuck in that place. I've also enjoyed having this space to vent and discuss. My own activity here has waned of late, though for different reasons than your own. I've enjoyed your posts and the conversations with you here.
Thanks IT_Veteran, and likewise, I have been lurking here all along, I just don't seem to have as much to say.

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slavereeno
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Re: Endure to the End

Post by slavereeno » Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:42 pm

Linked wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:54 pm
Your post really highlights the success the church has at indoctrinating and trapping people. Your loved ones (mine too) are so bought in to what the church is selling that you rocking the boat is literally the worst thing ever. And you are stuck because you love your loved ones, and you know how much pain the boat-rocking causes. And their pain becomes your pain.
Yes! Exactly! When I try to point this out it just makes stuff worse. "Suffer in Silence" seems to be the easiest course of action.
Linked wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:54 pm
Hang in there Slavereeno. I understand your predicament, mine is similar, though I've expanded the walls of my cage a little bit. I have really enjoyed your posts, I selfishly hope you continue to come around.
Thank you and likewise.
Linked wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:54 pm
That post and yours seem to be opposites. I doubt you could say that you would like to do any of the things on your list. But you seem to be at a point where you feel like you should do those things. I hope you can find a place in your relationships where you don't have to sacrifice so much to keep the peace. And when you find it let me know how you got there...
This is true, I am a people pleaser by nature, but that often puts one at the short end of the stick in family relationships.

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slavereeno
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Location: QC, AZ

Re: Endure to the End

Post by slavereeno » Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:43 pm

Angel wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:23 pm
!!! wow, that is a long list, you are a more patient person than me, I'm down to a ministering assignment, and that is it. No TR, no callings, attend just sacrament.... I was forced to attend RS last Sunday with relatives in town and realized how long it had been.... they made me say prayer...

just.... wow... sending good vibes your way!
Thanks I appreciate the good vibes and empathy!

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slavereeno
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Re: Endure to the End

Post by slavereeno » Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:50 pm

I probably should list some of the concessions or my ingratitude is just going to make this feel worse:
  • I don't go to the temple much anymore
  • We re-evaluated how we calculate our tithing (not on gross income anymore)
  • I have been able to tell our adult child where I am with belief
  • I have hinted to another couple of our children where I am with belief
  • My parents and 2.5 of 5 siblings know (and have asked me not to discuss)
  • We have been avoiding reading the BoM or D&C in family study
  • We skipped the adult session of stake conference

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Emower
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Re: Endure to the End

Post by Emower » Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:06 pm

slavereeno wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:50 pm
I probably should list some of the concessions or my ingratitude is just going to make this feel worse:
  • I don't go to the temple much anymore
  • We re-evaluated how we calculate our tithing (not on gross income anymore)
  • I have been able to tell our adult child where I am with belief
  • I have hinted to another couple of our children where I am with belief
  • My parents and 2.5 of 5 siblings know (and have asked me not to discuss)
  • We have been avoiding reading the BoM or D&C in family study
  • We skipped the adult session of stake conference
My DW recently told me, "I dont feel like any compromise is ever enough." That told me a lot about my actions and attitudes and whether they may need to change.

That is a pretty long list above. It is much much longer than my list, and no it is not fair. But, You are a better man than I am for being willing to do it. Props to you brother. I dont know if you will be happier for it or not. You probably dont even know, but your relationship might be better for it. Or it might be worse. Make sure you are checking that status fairly often.

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slavereeno
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Re: Endure to the End

Post by slavereeno » Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:58 pm

Emower wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:06 pm
My DW recently told me, "I dont feel like any compromise is ever enough." That told me a lot about my actions and attitudes and whether they may need
to change.
Thanks.

DW has told me the same thing.

I keep thinking the compromise is that I follow my beliefs and she follows hers. The problem with that line of thinking is that, in this religion, I cannot follow my beliefs without affecting several significant aspects of her life.

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Red Ryder
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Re: Endure to the End

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:26 pm

Many of us are people pleasers and doing the same thing as you listed to stay married or keep the peace. I've been there. I finally decided a few years ago to start making changes and letting people be disappointed. I figured I was already miserable so now it's their turn to love me for who I am or leave me for who I've/will become. Either way someone will be disappointed.

It took a few hard conversations and a year of marriage therapy to get where I'm at. It's still not perfect but we tolerate the difference in religious beliefs. The irony is that my wife never made real progress to understand me until a friend had her own faith crisis. Then suddenly she was sympathetic to different levels of testimony.

My advice is to become indifferent to Mormonism and participate at whatever level you need to to preserve your relationships. For me that's 2 hours a week and that's it. I literally have to be mormon for 2 hours. Everything else is just superficial noise.

I hate to say this because you're such a fantastic poster and I love reading and following the stories of the new people just entering the rabbit hole, but here goes. Get off the boards and find your mental exit plan and work your mind out of Mormonism. You'll find that once you can do that, the physical part is easy to deal with.

You just show up and find pleasure in friendship and community while being 100% checked out. Cell phones, top 10 lists, and counting ceiling tiles are great distractions. Whatever it takes to occupy your brain while sitting next to your wife and kids before you go home for another week.

Come here to vent as needed but stop looking to validate leaving. Too many of us rely on the boards to get the easy validation and understanding that we don't get from our TBM loved ones and guess what? It's addictive! I've been on mormon themed boards for over 12 years now for various reasons but deep down it's because I get validated that I'm not the crazy one. Mormonism is f'ing crazy town.

Your wife operates in fear mode because she was taught to fear the consequences of leaving the church. It's not her fault. As you continue to disengage, be the best damn husband, parent, and neighbor you can possibly be and let everyone else see that you can still be a happy productive member of society without being a deeply committed to the church.

Last thing I'll say is that it's a difficult process and if needed find a therapist, or group of like minded apostates to talk to in person. We are available to listen and laugh. That alone brings comfort.
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

Anon70
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Re: Endure to the End

Post by Anon70 » Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:24 pm

So many good and supportive responses. Just thought I’d throw mine in too. Mixed faith marriages-when one is TBM-well, there’s a double standard. I find that the TBMs can discuss anything they think or feel but we cannot. I hope you can find a more middle way.

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2bizE
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Re: Endure to the End

Post by 2bizE » Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:54 am

I am in almost the exact same place. I cannot envision a way out. I don't go to church every week, but I go often enough. It grows more agonizing every day. I feel for you brother.
~2bizE

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Corsair
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Re: Endure to the End

Post by Corsair » Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:40 am

slavereeno wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:41 am
Its World War III if I express even a hint of frustration at home. So thank you all for being here and for letting me vent.
I have a lot of respect for your diligence, Slavereeno. But you are giving everything and getting nothing of religious value in return. I recognize the value you are placing on your marriage, but this is like Archduke Ferdinand getting assassinated weekly and you are letting the LDS church and your family skip the mobilization expense of a World War while you bear it alone.

I know you are trying to preserve your family, but those loving relations are corroding away inside your heart due to the ingratitude of others around you. You will never gain any credit or gratitude for simply doing what the LDS church expects you to do. You have shouldered the burden of proof without getting any credit for it. Like Red Ryder suggests, you need some counseling, preferably with your wife and a non-LDS therapist.

I'm happy to be the source of admittedly dangerous suggestions. If the response to any frustration is World War III, then you might as well at least do something for your own sanity and get in trouble for something real rather than simply the thought crimes that threaten you right now.

Can we meet for lunch? Preferably with coffee? Along with some loud laughter and a bit of evil speaking of the Lord's anointed?

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IT_Veteran
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Re: Endure to the End

Post by IT_Veteran » Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:46 am

I have to say, I agree with Corsair here.He phrased it better than I possibly could have.

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græy
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Re: Endure to the End

Post by græy » Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:53 pm

slavereeno wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:41 am
This is what I am doing to keep the peace:
  • I attend church every Sunday
  • I hold 2 callings
  • I have a ministering assignment
  • I pay tithing
  • I support my child on a mission financially
  • I keep my disaffection to myself as much as possible
  • I wear my garments 24x7x365
  • I keep the WoW
  • I have to be aware of anything I say (more then ever)
  • I say nice things about the church around kids and relatives
  • I agree with everything the church does by my silence
  • I pray with family in the Mormon way several times each day
  • I study scriptures with the family
  • I sing in the ward choir (DW is the choir director)
  • I hold a temple recommend
  • I attend weddings in the temple
  • I feel guilty for missing the endowment session when an extended family member goes through for the first time
  • I pay for subscriptions to the Ensign, Friend, and the New Era (I don't even have a "Friend" aged child!)
  • I listen to most of Stake and General Conference
  • I live in my own head most of the time, I try not to share my frustration or feelings of isolation
Its World War III if I express even a hint of frustration at home. So thank you all for being here and for letting me vent.
I'm just seeing this thread today. I'm sorry slavereeno. This is no easy place to be. I am in the same spot as your original list. Minus singing in the choir, because no one in their right mind would want my voice in any sort of choir, and I don't currently have any children on missions. Other than that, I am here with you.
slavereeno wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:58 pm
I keep thinking the compromise is that I follow my beliefs and she follows hers. The problem with that line of thinking is that, in this religion, I cannot follow my beliefs without affecting several significant aspects of her life.
Agency! Oh, Agency! Wherefore art though Agency? For something so valued in our doctrine we sure make it hard for anyone to have any degree of freedom of choice.
Corsair wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:40 am
I'm happy to be the source of admittedly dangerous suggestions. If the response to any frustration is World War III, then you might as well at least do something for your own sanity and get in trouble for something real rather than simply the thought crimes that threaten you right now.
I agree with this thought. Although, I often doubt my own ability to survive world war iii.

edit to add: slavereeno, I hope you do stick around, even if you don't post as much. I appreciate your thoughts and insights, and it has been nice having someone I relate to so closely.
I'm better than dirt... well most dirt. Not that fancy store bought stuff, I can't compete with that... full of nutrients and everything. -Moe Sizlack

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slavereeno
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Re: Endure to the End

Post by slavereeno » Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:40 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:26 pm
My advice is to become indifferent to Mormonism and participate at whatever level you need to to preserve your relationships. For me that's 2 hours a week and that's it. I literally have to be mormon for 2 hours. Everything else is just superficial noise.

I hate to say this because you're such a fantastic poster and I love reading and following the stories of the new people just entering the rabbit hole, but here goes. Get off the boards and find your mental exit plan and work your mind out of Mormonism. You'll find that once you can do that, the physical part is easy to deal with.

You just show up and find pleasure in friendship and community while being 100% checked out. Cell phones, top 10 lists, and counting ceiling tiles are great distractions. Whatever it takes to occupy your brain while sitting next to your wife and kids before you go home for another week.
Thank you for your post RR, all of its good this piece is where I seem to get tripped up. I try to become indifferent, but I get pulled back in emotionally by family. It was actually easier when they didn't know. I think the trick is to become dispassionate about what I perceive to be the truth about myself.

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slavereeno
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Re: Endure to the End

Post by slavereeno » Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:41 pm

Anon70 wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:24 pm
Mixed faith marriages-when one is TBM-well, there’s a double standard. I find that the TBMs can discuss anything they think or feel but we cannot.
I have to learn to accept this and move on.

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slavereeno
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Re: Endure to the End

Post by slavereeno » Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:42 pm

Corsair wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:40 am
I have a lot of respect for your diligence, Slavereeno. But you are giving everything and getting nothing of religious value in return. I recognize the value you are placing on your marriage, but this is like Archduke Ferdinand getting assassinated weekly and you are letting the LDS church and your family skip the mobilization expense of a World War while you bear it alone.

I know you are trying to preserve your family, but those loving relations are corroding away inside your heart due to the ingratitude of others around you. You will never gain any credit or gratitude for simply doing what the LDS church expects you to do. You have shouldered the burden of proof without getting any credit for it. Like Red Ryder suggests, you need some counseling, preferably with your wife and a non-LDS therapist.

I'm happy to be the source of admittedly dangerous suggestions. If the response to any frustration is World War III, then you might as well at least do something for your own sanity and get in trouble for something real rather than simply the thought crimes that threaten you right now.

Can we meet for lunch? Preferably with coffee? Along with some loud laughter and a bit of evil speaking of the Lord's anointed?
Thanks Corsair, yes let's meet for lunch. I will reach out in a PM.

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slavereeno
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Re: Endure to the End

Post by slavereeno » Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:44 pm

græy wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:53 pm
Agency! Oh, Agency! Wherefore art though Agency? For something so valued in our doctrine we sure make it hard for anyone to have any degree of freedom of choice.
It seems agency got redefined when Joseph Smith wanted Helen Mar Kimball and the new definition seems to have stuck!
græy wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:53 pm
edit to add: slavereeno, I hope you do stick around, even if you don't post as much. I appreciate your thoughts and insights, and it has been nice having someone I relate to so closely.
Likewise, and thanks Graey. If I am not mistaken, aren't you still in a bishopric, I think that trumps my petty rant.

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