Word of Wisdom question

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Anon70
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Word of Wisdom question

Post by Anon70 » Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:45 pm

Since the church has clarified that the WOW is specifically about coffee and tea and not about soda or caffeine, etc.....I was curious:

1. Is Cold Coffee/Iced Tea ok?
2. Are coffee flavored rubs/marinades, desserts, ice creams ok?

can you answer an honest yes to the WOW question in the WOW if you ingest any of the above?

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Red Ryder
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Re: Word of Wisdom question

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Nov 29, 2016 6:02 pm

It's all about obedience. It's really that stupid!

My MIL likes to let everyone know how righteous she is and part of this is clarifying her choice of drink which is herbal tea. In my TBM days I didn't see a difference. In my NOM days I see her point. She uses whatever justification she finds necessary to uphold her conflicting actions.

So Is ice tea any different? Or green tea? Or cold coffee? Or Coke, Pepsi, Mountain Dew, or Dr. Pepper? Only if the church says it's a violation.

The church needs to clarify these things with exactness in order to stop creating the loop holes members love to jump through. Yet they don't because each individual answers the TR questions accordingly.

Why not update the WOW with a 21st century revelation that incorporates modern medical science and knowledge?

Are we a church of continuing revelation or just a medium for blind obedience? The evidence points to obedience before modernization.

Personally, I subscribe to the old fashioned doctrine of Free Agency and choose for myself what to eat, drink, and be merry! God can come down off his high throne and tell me if he doesn't agree.
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wtfluff
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Re: Word of Wisdom question

Post by wtfluff » Tue Nov 29, 2016 6:06 pm

Anon70 wrote:can you answer an honest yes to the WOW question in the WOW if you ingest any of the above?
How 'bout if we are just as honest with the church; As the church is with us?
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

IDKSAF -RubinHighlander

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John G.
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Re: Word of Wisdom question

Post by John G. » Tue Nov 29, 2016 6:41 pm

In my TBM days, I interpreted the hot drinks and alcohol part of the WoW as only applying to "drinks." So, for me, if a food had coffee or alcohol flavoring in it I could eat it. (Though I know some TBMs that would think this was breaking the WoW

Cold coffee and iced tea would be against the WoW because you are still drinking coffee and tea. "Hot drinks" has been interpreted as meaning coffee and tea so that is why hot chocolate and hot Postum is ok to drink.

But, I don't know how much my opinion is worth on the WoW since I'm inactive now and drank both coffee and iced tea today. (On a side note, if I had to go through a temple recommend interview this Sunday I think I would be able to pass the WoW. As a NOM, I accept that coffee and tea are against the WOW, but I also think that drinking coffee and tea are very, very minor infractions when you consider the entire plan of salvation. Consequently, if I had a TR interview coming up I would feel comfortable saying a prayer and repenting for my WoW disobedience before the interview).
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Silver Girl
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Re: Word of Wisdom question

Post by Silver Girl » Tue Nov 29, 2016 6:53 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Anon70 wrote:can you answer an honest yes to the WOW question in the WOW if you ingest any of the above?
How 'bout if we are just as honest with the church; As the church is with us?
Ding-ding-ding-ding-ding!!!
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Culper Jr.
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Re: Word of Wisdom question

Post by Culper Jr. » Tue Nov 29, 2016 6:59 pm

The WoW in current times is used as both a control mechanism and a source of oneupmanship for TBMs, both of which are things I reject. Section 89 was supposedly from the voice of Jesus to the ears of Joseph, and it says specifically that it's not a commandment in the first few verses. So what does the church (I think it was Heber J. Grant) then do? Make it a commandment, of course; the very thing that Section 89 explicitly states that it's not supposed to be! Where is the revelation that changed it? Anyway, Section 89 says hot drinks. Iced tea is not hot, in fact it'd be hard for it to be less hot and still remain in a liquid state, so I am comfortable drinking it and saying that I obey the WoW in the temple recommend interview. In it's original Section 89 wording, the WoW kinda makes sense: no tobacco, no hard liquor, and don't pour boiling hot liquid down your throat, eat right, not too much meat... and it's just good advice, not a commandment. Today it is a nonsensical means of control.

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2bizE
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Re: Word of Wisdom question

Post by 2bizE » Wed Nov 30, 2016 6:41 pm

The church did clarify a few years ago that caffeine is not part of the WoW.
Sanka is not either...

coffee-1.png
coffee-1.png (136.09 KiB) Viewed 8446 times
~2bizE

Anon70
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Re: Word of Wisdom question

Post by Anon70 » Wed Nov 30, 2016 7:42 pm

See this is the kind of stuff that makes me crazy!

Word of Wisdom says NO hot drinks--but you can have Hot Chocolate, Hot Cider and Hot Sanka.
It's not about the Caffeine so you can have soda.
BUT If it's not about the caffeine why can you have decaffeinated Sanka COFFEE?!? Isn't it the coffee part that's the problem then?

I'm so confused.

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document
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Re: Word of Wisdom question

Post by document » Thu Dec 01, 2016 10:45 am

Two friends of mine are cold-coffee drinking temple recommend holding LDS members. They are devout. I asked her recently about her drinking an iced Mocha before work every day and she said (paraphrasing), "I don't find it a problem. They don't ask you what you consume, but whether you keep the word of Wisdom".

I think the obsession over the exactness of the word of Wisdom is more cultural than institutional. The institution, through the questions, does not define it out in much detail, but leaves it to the individual to decide. Culturally, Mormons are sniping at each other constantly over it because it is an external way they display their righteousness and cultural identity.

If you don't care about displaying your righteousness nor about your cultural identity (as in the case of my friend), she just answers honestly. She finds cold-coffee OK by the word of Wisdom, and thus it is OK for her to hold a temple recommend.

Another anecdote, my mother-in-law drank Iced Tea for years and still does. When she initially went to the temple, the bishop asked her if she obeyed the word of Wisdom. She said yes. The bishop came over to the house at a later date in preparation for the endowment and we were over there, my then-TBM-then-wife said, "You know she drinks iced tea, right?". And the bishop said, "All I ask is whether they obey the word of Wisdom" and left it at that.

I also found out later from that bishop's son that the bishop's wife was a regular drinking of decaf coffee. :)

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John G.
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Re: Word of Wisdom question

Post by John G. » Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:13 am

2bizE wrote:The church did clarify a few years ago that caffeine is not part of the WoW.
Sanka is not either...

What the Heck do you mean about caffeine not being part of the WoW? You don't consider it habit forming? I'll just leave you with the words of Vaughn Featherstone from General Conference to think about.
I was over in England a while back and a bishop asked me, “What is the Church’s stand on cola drinks?” I said, “Well, I can’t remember the exact wording of the bulletin, but I remember seeing the bulletin when I was a stake president. The Church, of course, advises against them.”

He said, “Well, I have read the Priesthood Bulletin, but that isn’t what it says to me.”

And I said, “Would you get your Priesthood Bulletin? Let’s read it together.” And so we found under the heading “Cola Drinks”: “… the leaders of the Church have advised, and we do now specifically advise, against use of any drink containing harmful habit-forming drugs. …” (The Priesthood Bulletin, Feb. 1972, p. 4.)

He said, “Well, you see, that doesn’t mean cola.”

I said, “Well, I guess you will have to come to your own grips with that, but to me, there is no question.” You see, there can’t be the slightest particle of rebellion, and in him there is. We can find loopholes in a lot of things if we want to bend the rules of the Church.
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... g?lang=eng
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Corsair
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Re: Word of Wisdom question

Post by Corsair » Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:45 pm

document wrote:Two friends of mine are cold-coffee drinking temple recommend holding LDS members. They are devout. I asked her recently about her drinking an iced Mocha before work every day and she said (paraphrasing), "I don't find it a problem. They don't ask you what you consume, but whether you keep the word of Wisdom".
This is exactly how I get through temple recommend interviews and tithing settlement. They don't ask you what you earn, but whether you keep the law of Tithing" Plus, the last temple rec interview question is: "Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord's house and participate in temple ordinances?" Well, of course I do. So I remain the undercover unbeliever. I should get that put on a T-shirt.

It's realizations like this that clearly show how the mental prison of LDS belief is only locked from the inside. We could get out whenever we want save for the social conditioning of our peers. Logic and science have no real bearing on LDS doctrine and only a marginal nod is ever given to theology.

Korihor
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Re: Word of Wisdom question

Post by Korihor » Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:38 pm

TBM hat on
Avoid the appearance of evil. Iced tea and coffee flavored desserts are a no-no.

Common Sense hat on
Drink too much and you'll have to use the restroom too frequently.

Korihor hat on
Whatever they tell you, do the exact opposite.
Reading can severely damage your ignorance.

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2bizE
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Re: Word of Wisdom question

Post by 2bizE » Fri Dec 02, 2016 6:41 pm

Here is some more info about the church declaring caffeine is not part of the WoW.

http://archive.sltrib.com/story.php?ref ... s.html.csp
~2bizE

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MalcolmVillager
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Re: Word of Wisdom question

Post by MalcolmVillager » Sat Dec 03, 2016 8:44 am

I hope for a day with more relaxed wow rules. I don't see it coming anytime soon. In the meantime, I do as Corsair said. My interpretations are what I base my answers on.

I hate coffee and tea, but enough sugar and cream makes anything go down. I can't drink either straight without sweetener. I drink cold coffee most mornings. Sometimes when it is cold, I drink warm coffee. Anything hot is too difficult to drink so I let it cool to a warm temperature.

Hot and cold are not specivic measures, but merely a relative reference.

Coffee help my bowels. I am a more "regular" Mormon when I drink it. It really keeps me going!

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Corsair
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Re: Word of Wisdom question

Post by Corsair » Sat Dec 03, 2016 9:40 am

2bizE wrote:Here is some more info about the church declaring caffeine is not part of the WoW.

http://archive.sltrib.com/story.php?ref ... s.html.csp
This article is unintentionally satire. Of all the things the church might "normalize", it chose chose sugary, unhealthy drinks. There is no apology for thousands of devout Mormons who was chastised for drinking Coke and Pesi. Bruce McConkie railed on it for decades and was the "argument from authority" when teenagers were forbidden from their favorite caffeine source. But once presidential candidate Mitt Romney was seen with a Diet Coke the PR department jumps into high gear with the implicit blessing of 15 prophets, seers, and revelators who let us know God's thoughts on this most important issue.

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moksha
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Re: Word of Wisdom question

Post by moksha » Sun Dec 04, 2016 4:39 am

Anon70 wrote: 1. Is Cold Coffee/Iced Tea ok?
2. Are coffee flavored rubs/marinades, desserts, ice creams ok?
1. Thai or Vietnamese Ice Coffee is exceptionally tasty. Arnold Palmer Iced Tea/Lemonade is a true winner on a warm summer day.

2. One of the posters on NOM 1.0 mentioned that coffee is an excellent addition to chili recipes. Coffee and espresso flavored ice cream should be regarded as the royal flavors of ice cream, along with dulce de leche. Cappuccino Gelato sounds so delicious that surely it must exist somewhere besides my imagination.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

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Just This Guy
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Re: Word of Wisdom question

Post by Just This Guy » Sun Dec 04, 2016 8:14 am

I type this as I have a pot of coffee going and cinnamon rolls in the oven...

The WoW is one of those things that is completely different now than what was originally given.

The original WoW was never meant as a commandment, but a suggestion. It even says so in it. It wasn't until Heber J. Grant used it to justify his anti-alcohol push in Utah as part of the early prohibition movement that it started to morph into what we have today.

How the church uses the WoW today has some very disturbing implications that most TBM's don't want to admit to.

The Wow is stated to be a recommendation and not a commandment. This is how it is in the D&C and the D&C is accepted and voted upon by the membership as a book of doctrine. For the modern church to change any of it and to make it a commandment, they have to receive revelation amending the original one and that had to be voted on my the membership to be accepted as doctrine. That has never happened and therefore the original as currently published is the doctrine of the church.

So if it is doctrine, then the church is in violation of their own doctrine by making it a commandment. Every modern interpenetration of it is to be ignored because the original text overrules it. They cannot make it a part of the TR interview because the doctrine of the church says it is not a commandment. Anyone who does consider it a commandment is in apostasy.

On the flip side, if the modern interpenetration does override what is in the D&C, then that means that the doctrine of their church is completely useless. Why even have the D&C if the prophets coming later will overrule it? From there, why do you need the BoM? If the information in it is only to be superseded by some later. The whole origin story of the church is then called into question because there is no need for the BoM, or the Bible for that matter.

In the end, the WoW to me is one of the more blatant examples of the church being false.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

Giant Sloth
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Re: Word of Wisdom question

Post by Giant Sloth » Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:53 am

1. Yes.
2. Yes.

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SunbeltRed
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Re: Word of Wisdom question

Post by SunbeltRed » Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:21 am

I don't really like coffee all that much, but a tasty coffee/chocolate stout and I'm in. In fact, I'm going to pick up a growler tomorrow for a local brew called Good Morning Vietnam - a coffee vanilla blond ale. It is very desirable and delicious to the taste.

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