Ruined relationships

[jfro18]

This is such a tough thread to read but it rings true for so many of us.

I hope you can find some boundaries as others have said and find a way to either make it work in your marriage that you can be happy with, or find a way to split where you can be amicable and give your kids the best environment possible.

I've seen a lot of people come through this in great shape and obviously some who end up divorced. Over here I've been going through the back-and-forth about church stuff with my wife for about 9 months... it's been awful and 2018 is easily going to end as the worst year of my life.

I just have to keep hoping things work out... hard to see how that happens sometimes, but it's all I can do.

Good luck with your family and I hope you can set some boundaries and force your family to honor them. I can't imagine how difficult it is to navigate a marriage when your own family is acting against you in the name of the church... yet it happens way too often.

Keep us posted and feel free to vent anytime!!

[Newme]

DH had taken her son on a trip to the area where the affair was.

???

DH was/is a tour guide.

[Newme]

I feel your pain - I'm in a mixed-faith marriage with kids as well, and have also been given the lecture about "not keeping my covenants". Keeping covenants??!!?? I had no idea what covenants I would be asked to make in the temple, if I had known the polygamous nature of the "new and everlasting covenant" I would have NEVER agreed to that. I did not break my covenant - my DH broke his covenant, nothing but lies from all of it - from people in the temple who should NOT have been there, lies about the Spirit keeping people safe etc. All lies. Abuse, adultery, lies - but then we are the ones who are evil for leaving??!!??

I do not want to be one of those angry people, do not want to live with hate - forgive, be nice, kind, count your blessings - I get it.

I also get the need for boundaries, and for finding a new tribe of people, a new community.

I feel your pain!!

You understand. Thank you! That means a lot to me.
Like you, I don’t want anger to eat me up inside. I want to forgive. I had previously bought a card for my sister - and although I don’t feel it expresses how I feel about her anymore - I sent it & a gift for her birthday. Part of me wants her & others to suffer - as they have hurt me and others. But when I think about it deeper, I realize everyone suffers - them too. It may not be the same as my suffering & they may be clueless as to why they suffer - but they do. A friend suggested that people who are mean - you can leave their presence - but they can’t.

[Newme]

I'm very sorry for all the hard things your family is putting you through. Mormons suck at boundaries.

I understand staying for the kids, but what's bad for kids is parents fighting and the antagonism that often comes with divorce. Is there an option to get a divorce with a good coparenting relationship? Together in parenting, but not together. You shouldn't be held hostage in a loveless marriage, you should be able to pursue what makes you happy without his choices weighing you down. He could date without being dishonest. Since the marriage is over anyway maybe going through it would actually be a weight off?

I know from the outside there is always lots to consider and with LDS background the idea of divorce carries a lot of shame.

I know - I’ve thought this through countless times.
If we divorced - it would be worse for all. It’s not so much the shame - but more hurting our kids and trying to parent on our own - it’s hard enough with 2! DH & I don’t fight much - we try to get along in front of our kids. I’m thinking if parents in concentration camps etc can sacrifice food or their lives for their kids - we can hang in there for a few more years or so. It isn’t ideal - but it could be worse. What really sucks is the church’s dysfunctional grasp on the minds of him & others in my family - hurting me. Boundaries.

[Newme]

All I can say is: I believe many of us are in the same situation relationship wise.

One of the ways I deal with it is: This is where I've ended up after a lifetime of stupid decisions based purely on emotions (or lack thereof.) A lifetime of trying to get direction from a ghost. It is what it is, and I can't go back and re-live those idiotic decisions. I believe that staying in the relationship is better for my kids than leaving it. Their welfare is more important than mine at this point.

Solidarity in the sucky-ness of the broken relationships that mormonism creates.

Thank you - for understanding - though I wish your circumstances were better too.

You know what’s funny? For Christmas, my mom gave us a book about avoiding jerks in dating. It basically explains the narcissist/co-dependent game, ignoring red flags and emotional reasoning. And when I looked up characteristics of narcissists, she and DH fit every one except one. I think it’s true that we might as well confront issues with parents - because otherwise we encounter them in those we attract or are drawn to.

[Newme]

sorry to hear that. situation sounds unsustainable. as you have not asked for advice I will abstain. FWIW it seems you are acting nobly in a terrible dynamic. It's good to have somewhere to vent, even if it is in cyberspace.

Thanks. It is a priceless gift to get support here. Better than therapy! The last 2 therapists I went to argued for Mormonism & couldn’t wrap their minds around the possiblity of Mormonism having significant flaws.

[Newme]

I am glad you are aware of codependency. Once you move past codependency you maybe able to leave the marriage or once you leave, you may be able to get past it.
Why are you staying with him? Do you honestly believe that is what is best for the children? Is it money?
Your family sucks.... not much more I feel I need to say about them. Friends can replace family and give you something much more fulfilling. Support groups, or other churches can offer help. Sometimes obvious answers, right in front of us, are the hardest to grab hold of plus it takes time.

When you say that he is nice sometime yet narcissistic, well that is what keeps you hooked... it’s a disgusting, abusive cycle and that hardest to get away from. I do not think this is a mixed faith problem. He has the best tools to keep you beat down and narcissistist are known for having their “flying monkeys”... unfortunately they are your family members.

Food for thought... would you be okay with your children ending up in the same relationship/marriage you are modeling? Are you okay with delaying your chance at showing your children a fulfilling life and a future healthy relationship? Are you okay wasting away? I bet this is taking a toll on your health....
Saying to set boundaries isn’t enough. We can toss that around all day... you need away from him, actual physical boundaries. I bet the affair was your fault right? And worse, I bet you believed him or at least wondered if that was true. Until you can gain some distance you will be in the confusion fog. I don’t have all the answers, but you can PM me anytime. I have a busy month with my trial looming but if you need help over the next year to leave I will help in anyway I can. Being worried about money is so much better than being in the same physical space. It is not a battle you have to fight overnight. You can make a five year plan, three year plan, one year plan... what ever works for you.

I made that all sound easy. I am so, so sorry you are hurting. You should not have to live like this. I am not going to say I know what you are going through, but I do know relationship hell. It took a full year of counseling, and she supported me more than one hour a week. I’m sure she was often exasperated with me but she stuck with me until I had the courage to leave and was safe. There are times when you need a lot of support so do not feel bad about asking for it. Sending you hugs.

Thanks for your kindness & desire to help.
That song was touching - thank you.
I do have a plan - but it’ll take time. Meanwhile boundaries will save me. Also, I’m going to work on myself more. It takes 2 to tango - I know what I’ve contributed. As I tell my kids, there’s no remote control for others - you can just control yourself.

After some s-it hit the fan, in processing things, crying & praying, I realized that this time I have can be very productive. In the past, I had boyfriends that were worse than DH - one stocked me, one slept around with everyone he came across. I have been sick & therefore attracted sick people. If I were to just divorce & split without asserting myself and dealing with this - I’d probably just get into another sick relationship (besides breaking our kids’ hearts). This time is a chance to heal - & to teach my kids not that their dad’s a jerk - but that there are better ways of relating - & though we all screw up - when we come across difficult people, we can maintain firm in a healthy base. That’s what I’m hoping anyway.

[Arcturus]

I'm so sorry Newme. This is heartbreaking to read.

I have a few thoughts that may or may not be helpful. Family relationships, spouse relationships, etc. are so complicated. I'll give you my thoughts from my life perspective.

My father is a serial cheater on my mom. The first one was awful (long term, 100% emotional and as physical as it can be) and they almost split over it. But my dad doesn't really think long term and lacks the self confidence to finish things. He stayed with my mom and my mom chose to stay with him to honor her temple covenants (she's uber orthodox and my dad is a liberal TBM Mormon). This first affair happened over 3 years when I was between the ages of 5-7. My growing up years were really rough in the house, but I didn't get the brunt of my mom's anger and PTSD, which she took out on my sisters as well as my dad. I was the favorite child.

When I'm 16-7 the second one happens. As weird as it is to write this, the second affair isn't as bad as the first in that it wasn't really emotional. Shockingly, my parents still chose to stay together and my dad was excommunicated for over a decade, but is since been re-baptized with a restoration of blessings. After the 2nd affair, my parents' relationship went to the shit hole again for over 10 years, again taking a toll on the kids. My mom is so orthodox that she's stayed with him to "honor" her temple covenant with God and she's told me straight up that she believes my dad won't be in the celestial kingdom and she'll be given to another faithful priesthood holder and she'll be happy. What the flying f***??? I'm 100% serious about this. My dad also knows this and also stays with her with hopes that God will someday forgive him. Talk about unhealthy...

Anyways, I think often what would've been better for my family if my parents would have split after the first affair. I and my older sibling agree 100% that we *think* family life would've been better if my parents would've divorced when we were young. My mom likely has PTSD from my dad and my dad is a shell of a human being because my mom wears the pants 100% - it's really weird psychology because she treats him like her son.

Anyways, I had come to that conclusion - that my parents should've divorced - when I was a very faithful TBM (that's an important point because I considered heavily the "eternal" consequences because of temple theology). Now that I think Mormonism is simply myth, I believe divorce can be healthy (in the event of unfaithfulness) even when there are kids involved. No kids involved and there's infidelity? Absolutely get out of that relationship is my opinion.

This is a serious thing, and my heart breaks for you. I haven't looked into this at all, but I wonder if there are support groups led by licensed professionals for this type of thing. This could be helpful for you in navigating decisions or figuring out how to stay in the mess but still live happily. My opinion is more for your consideration with your kids. Speaking from a kid's perspective, I wish my parents would have divorced. Even today in the here and now, I think our family would benefit if they split.

[Newme]

So sorry newme, I am also in a mixed faith marriage that is all but dead so I know what you are going through. My greatest triumph is when I am able to tune all the TBMs out even in church. Keep posting here to keep your sanity!!! You have an extended family here. God Bless.

Thanks!
Yes, at times, this forum has helped me tune out prophet worship etc, in church.
And now it is being an awesome source of support!

[Newme]

This is really a difficult situation for you and I wish there was some other way to offer aid. But, I can't. You're about to embark on the most complicated and emotionally painful year of your life. Your Soon-To-Be-Ex has the perfect excuse to attract all of the sympathy to him because of his faithfulness and your unbelief. You are going to suffer financially and possibly in your health. I am not a lawyer and simply can't offer any practical advice.

I only have the crazy notion that one year from right now things are going to be weirdly better even though the rest of your life may still be somewhat falling apart. The relationships that remain will likely be more authentic and more loving. The way you live and work and breathe and love will be more real. It probably won't be easy in any material way. But you will probably be at a place that is glad to have these events in the past. It's Future You that will be thanking Current You for making these tough decisions. Past You laid the ground work and it's time to move forward into some difficult times that result in a better life for Future You.

Keep us up to date on how events happen to you. Just tell us what happens if it might help you clear your mind and see your next steps with greater clarity. This is hard and you are not the first person to go through this. Unfortunately, you won't be the last either. Your journey is still important as we mourn with those that mourn and try to comfort those that stand in need of comfort.

Thanks, Corsair.
I told DH to stop talking to my mom & so far he’s honored that.
What I’ve figured out is that everyone has issues - often those who seem to have it most together have the most but are just better at hiding them. After my faith crisis - I came to see more clearly through BS. Sometimes I’ve hated myself and all humanity for being so flawed. I know that sounds awful. I think it has something to do with survival - being more sensitive to what wrong than focusing on what’s right.

I’ve been reading the Tao te Ching & this struck me: “I treat the good as good, I also treat the evil as good. This is true goodness. I trust the trustworthy, I also trust the untrustworthy. This is real trust.”

There are different possible interpretations of that. One could be that you trust that people are not 100% dependable. (This is why I believe in God - despite my faith crisis. I don’t know how God/Tao works but it seems that just believing it does makes it work. ) Also, if all you had to cross a deep pass you had to cross was a flimsy rope - then trusting in that is your only option. Dig a little and you realize we’re all flawed - but also there’s goodness and beauty.

Anyway, thanks for going deep and mourning with me. It helps me look up & find hope.

[Newme]

It is astounding that unwillingness to perform illicit Masonic rituals is valued over marriage fidelity. Hugs and best wishes, Newme!

Exactly! Thanks, Hagoth.

[Newme]

Studies have documented that there is one thing even more damaging to kids than parents divorcing and that is parents staying together for the kids. It is the parents not getting along that damages kids, not whether they do it in one house or two. When the parents are in one house, there is more fighting, unhappiness, and resentment between parents and it is a daily thing. That is what damages the kids, is seeing their parents fighting or unhappy. The damage of divorce mostly happens before the parents split, and once the parents split, the wounds begin to heal.

So, please know that your happiness is what is best for your kids. Kids do not do well if they see their mother martyring herself for their sake. It causes them to feel guilt, which harms them psychologically. Even if you don’t let them know you are giving up your own happiness for them, the see it and know. They are smarter than you think and see that you are not happy, and they know why. Kids are not stupid. They see and they figure it out.

There are several ways that staying together and unhappy is damaging. One I mentioned above is the guilt they feel when they know that if it was not for them, their parents would be happy. Kids blame themselves. They see their parents are unhappy and they are sure it is their fault. #2 is that being miserable gives them a horrible role model. (Oh, great, adults are miserable. I don’t want to grow up and get married and be miserable.) And third, seeing you sad also makes them sad. No matter if you pretend. They see through that.

I am sorry you are in this position. It is terrible, and your family suck. They find it easier to blame you than to blame your husband for what really is more his problem than yours. He had the affair, and that is always more what destroys a marriage than any of the things that led up to it. Then he went to your mother to blame HIS betrayal of the marriage onto you. That is a second betrayal of the marriage and so so much worse than changing how you think about a cult. And if you ever doubt that Mormonism is a cult, just look at how people react when someone leaves.

Thanks, Alas. We don’t argue much - in front of our kids. I’ve contributed to the situation too - and it seems best to work this through to overcome otherwise I may repeat.

It sure is a cult. I’ve tried so hard to get DH & family to see that, but I think it backfired. But the good thing is someone from DH’s family recently told me of seeing some issues with Mormonism. That meant a lot because previously & DH’s & her parents had kind of ganged up on me trying to get me to unsee what I’ve seen as far as the church’s problems. She and I both felt support from each other. That was the best Christmas present!

[Newme]

DH had taken her son on a trip to the area where the affair was.

???

Im with Moksha on this one? There was an affair? Is this ongoing?

It amazes me how somethings get swept under the carpet when its the elephant in the room.

Tour trip. He said it was platonic, but they were holding hands and he had hidden the picture. My guess is it was a one-time thing - & not sure if sex. I haven’t focused on it because it doesn’t bother me as much as us not relating well, his narcissism & my codependency. I don’t own him nor does he own me - though obviously if there’s sex, that’s a problem. I pointed it out to my mom because it seems more obvious a problem than his narcissism (which she doesn’t see). And she still didn’t see that as much of a problem as me not going to the temple.

[Newme]

I have vivid memories of many years of awful painful moments, dealing with a cheating narcissistic spouse and divorce with three kids. I'm glad I wasn't going through my faith crisis on top of it! I would try to use the affair card with your TBM family. They may still put the blame on your faith crisis that drove him to it, but there's no excuse for him staying faithful and making you to scapegoat. After all, it's a male dominated religion, he's the damn patriarch! But isn't that just like to church to always let the man off easier than the woman.

This is some painful suck you have to deal with, especially over the holidays. Hang in there, vent here often and get outside in some trees for deep breaths and decompression.

Thanks. For a long time, I have been protective and defending DH (because racial prejudice etc). I have realized that wasn’t good & am kind of playing that card - even though to me it’s not the ace.

[Newme]

This is such a tough thread to read but it rings true for so many of us.

I hope you can find some boundaries as others have said and find a way to either make it work in your marriage that you can be happy with, or find a way to split where you can be amicable and give your kids the best environment possible.

I've seen a lot of people come through this in great shape and obviously some who end up divorced. Over here I've been going through the back-and-forth about church stuff with my wife for about 9 months... it's been awful and 2018 is easily going to end as the worst year of my life.

I just have to keep hoping things work out... hard to see how that happens sometimes, but it's all I can do.

Good luck with your family and I hope you can set some boundaries and force your family to honor them. I can't imagine how difficult it is to navigate a marriage when your own family is acting against you in the name of the church... yet it happens way too often.

Keep us posted and feel free to vent anytime!!

Thanks. It really is comforting to know I’m not the only one going through something like this. I hope you and your wife work thing out.

[Newme]

I'm so sorry Newme. This is heartbreaking to read.

I have a few thoughts that may or may not be helpful. Family relationships, spouse relationships, etc. are so complicated. I'll give you my thoughts from my life perspective.

My father is a serial cheater on my mom. The first one was awful (long term, 100% emotional and as physical as it can be) and they almost split over it. But my dad doesn't really think long term and lacks the self confidence to finish things. He stayed with my mom and my mom chose to stay with him to honor her temple covenants (she's uber orthodox and my dad is a liberal TBM Mormon). This first affair happened over 3 years when I was between the ages of 5-7. My growing up years were really rough in the house, but I didn't get the brunt of my mom's anger and PTSD, which she took out on my sisters as well as my dad. I was the favorite child.

When I'm 16-7 the second one happens. As weird as it is to write this, the second affair isn't as bad as the first in that it wasn't really emotional. Shockingly, my parents still chose to stay together and my dad was excommunicated for over a decade, but is since been re-baptized with a restoration of blessings. After the 2nd affair, my parents' relationship went to the shit hole again for over 10 years, again taking a toll on the kids. My mom is so orthodox that she's stayed with him to "honor" her temple covenant with God and she's told me straight up that she believes my dad won't be in the celestial kingdom and she'll be given to another faithful priesthood holder and she'll be happy. What the flying f***??? I'm 100% serious about this. My dad also knows this and also stays with her with hopes that God will someday forgive him. Talk about unhealthy...

Anyways, I think often what would've been better for my family if my parents would have split after the first affair. I and my older sibling agree 100% that we *think* family life would've been better if my parents would've divorced when we were young. My mom likely has PTSD from my dad and my dad is a shell of a human being because my mom wears the pants 100% - it's really weird psychology because she treats him like her son.

Anyways, I had come to that conclusion - that my parents should've divorced - when I was a very faithful TBM (that's an important point because I considered heavily the "eternal" consequences because of temple theology). Now that I think Mormonism is simply myth, I believe divorce can be healthy (in the event of unfaithfulness) even when there are kids involved. No kids involved and there's infidelity? Absolutely get out of that relationship is my opinion.

This is a serious thing, and my heart breaks for you. I haven't looked into this at all, but I wonder if there are support groups led by licensed professionals for this type of thing. This could be helpful for you in navigating decisions or figuring out how to stay in the mess but still live happily. My opinion is more for your consideration with your kids. Speaking from a kid's perspective, I wish my parents would have divorced. Even today in the here and now, I think our family would benefit if they split.

Thanks. I can relate.
I remember hating the tension - & my mom’s contempt for my dad. My mom had an affair on my dad & then blamed him so the bishop just told her to skip sacrament a few times. Then my friend had “fornication” & got excommunicated and thrown out of his house, ostracized etc. Leadership roulette.

Anyway, this is a good reminder to focus on the good especially around our kids (while keeping boundaries) with DH. I’ve asked my kids if they’d rather we divorce - and they said no & have gotten really upset when that word is mentioned.

[Rob4Hope]

I am divorced Newme. I waited until my children were grown. I don't have any counterpoint to compare against, saying its easier now than later. But I will tell you a few things that were part of my pathway:

1. When we announced the divorce to the children, they didn't even blink. They all said, aftward, "its about time." They weren't necessarily in favor of it, they just saw it coming for over a decade.
2. I did everything I could to financially prepare for this, but my wife refused over years to get an education, a job, and so forth. Consequently, I ended up getting hit up for some steep alimony--which I pay faithfully. But my point here is you should prepare yourself. I don't know what your financial situation is, but I can tell you that divorce is akin to financial suicide.
3. I am still happier I'm out, even after I hit 5 years. Actually, we were separated for around 3 years prior, so it feels like this is a lot longer.
4. I have moments of regret where I think: "Could I have held on a little longer? Could I have done things differently?" I take those feelings in stride, and I also take those as NORMAL feelings. When I look closely at those feeling and put them in context of where I am now, I consistently conclude that divorce was the right answer in my situation.

I'm not advocating you get divorced. What I am saying is it is a possibility. There is life after divorce. I am doing better now than I was in the marriage. I have many of the same friends, and a whole lot of new ones. I'm able to find support, help, love, compassions, and fun. I'm also completely and permanently out of the LDS church. That caused some of the problems in my marriage, and I can see no way of reconciliation.

Just some thoughts.

[alas]

I can see your point of wanting to work on yourself so that you don’t just repeat and marry another narcissist or someone with equal problems. And I guess it doesn’t matter if you do it while sharing a house with your husband. I am glad you have a plan you are working on.

[Lithium Sunset]

Thanks for checking in. Hope it all works out and you find a more fulfilling and peaceful life. Hang in there.

[Newme]

Thanks for all of the support - it helps!