Need Advice - Potential Visit from a Seventy

This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
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Brent
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Re: Need Advice - Potential Visit from a Seventy

Post by Brent » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:59 pm

I would offer this was Recon not Rescue. Look at it for what it was, a clear market research interview.

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blazerb
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Re: Need Advice - Potential Visit from a Seventy

Post by blazerb » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:26 am

It sounds like you did great. This part hit me:
SincereInquirer wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:43 pm
3. "People in the past weren't perfect and we aren't perfect now. Prophet, apostles, seventies, etc. are all just regular imperfect people." He added stories about rubbing shoulders with Mormon big wigs and acknowledging how they weren't perfect. I told him I didn't demand perfection from people, but I did think a higher standard should apply to those that are supposedly talking directly to God and telling us what he wants for us and giving us God's words and honesty shouldn't be that hard. I also brought up the apology thing again and one of the things that stood out for me was that he never apologized and he never said the Mormon church would either. Just kept talking about how no one is perfect.
It really pisses me off to that the GA's argue that members are not allowed to contact leaders with their problems because they already know all about them and, at the same time, say we just need to move on when they make mistakes because they are not perfect. If God can't tell them that they are making a mistake, why aren't they getting the most information they can. They also say that we are not to criticize leaders. Instead we are supposed to work behind the scenes using mechanisms that they know do not exist. Then they ask us to forgive them for not being perfect (fine, I don't want to hold onto the bitterness), but they never apologize or even point out what things were mistakes. They just move on hoping that past practices and doctrines just go quietly away. Then you have local leaders who don't get the nonexistent memos and cause damage. In that case, you might get a statement that local leaders just need to make sure they get trained, but usually you just get silence because not enough people were hurt and they don't want to diminish the authority of the local leadership or their own authority. And in any case it is up to the wounded members to make restitution.

I have never asked for perfect leadership, just a decent one.

Sorry for the emotional outburst. I hope it kind of makes sense.

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græy
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Re: Need Advice - Potential Visit from a Seventy

Post by græy » Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:02 pm

How have I been missing this thread all this time!? Well done SincereInquirer! It sounds like you handled that meeting as well as anyone could have.
SincereInquirer wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:43 pm
I told them I felt like I was doing fine. Told them I don't think people in my situation are really having a "faith crisis" as much as the Mormon church has had a "truth crisis". Told them what the things were that started me on the path to questioning and that study resulted in finding out that all foundational stories have all been deliberately white washed or just flat out aren't true.

1. "I have always known about these issues." (Gaslighting)

2. "We haven't hidden anything".

3. "People in the past weren't perfect and we aren't perfect now. Prophet, apostles, seventies, etc. are all just regular imperfect people."
A few months after getting called into the bishopric, our bishop was invited to a training meeting exclusively for bishops and stake presidents. Our bishop was going to be out of the country at the time so he asked me to go in his place. One of the Q12 was "presiding" at the meeting.

I strongly considered recording, but it was a small group and I had no way of doing so without being noticed. Nothing important was said anyway.

He droned on for a couple of hours before bearing his testimony to the group that we (general leaders and local members) were not deceived. Nothing had been hidden, and we were receiving more "revelation" all the time. It just felt so... fake. How can you claim nothing was hidden when we have so much evidence of things not being taught, not being mentioned, and being blatantly taken out of relevant books/manuals?

We don't expect perfection. In fact we all expect humans to make mistakes. But at least be honest about those things.
I'm better than dirt... well most dirt. Not that fancy store bought stuff, I can't compete with that... full of nutrients and everything. -Moe Sizlack

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didyoumythme
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Re: Need Advice - Potential Visit from a Seventy

Post by didyoumythme » Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:51 pm

“We are all just regular imperfect people” is my favorite response to get. They are admitting that they are nothing special without realizing it. It is telling that when they are backed into a corner, they argue that they are just normal everyday folk instead of chosen prophets of the lard.

Which is it then? Are you just like everyone else (i.e. just making it all up as you go along) or are you special? Too bad all the evidence points to them being regular folk like the rest of us.
When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease being honest, or cease being mistaken. - Anonymous

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Mormorrisey
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Re: Need Advice - Potential Visit from a Seventy

Post by Mormorrisey » Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:20 pm

didyoumythme wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:51 pm
“We are all just regular imperfect people” is my favorite response to get. They are admitting that they are nothing special without realizing it. It is telling that when they are backed into a corner, they argue that they are just normal everyday folk instead of chosen prophets of the lard.

Which is it then? Are you just like everyone else (i.e. just making it all up as you go along) or are you special? Too bad all the evidence points to them being regular folk like the rest of us.
Some good points about the "imperfect people" trope.

I want to take it one step farther - if prophets are imperfect in the past, can they make mistakes now? If so, aren't I justified complaining about shopping malls, women not getting the priesthood, and the church's stance on LGBT issues? Aren't these mistakes too, and everyone on this board can be seen as being ahead of the curve in pointing this out to everyone? That's the biggest challenge I have with this kind of thinking. "Sure, Joseph made some mistakes but dang it, the brethren have all the answers NOW." That's the flaw with the argument, at least for me.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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