NOM

I am sure many of you have seen posts on Reddit about fellow members in a less than believing state being asked to meet with a visiting Seventy or other Mormon bigwig as part of Stake Conference visits.

Well, looks like I must be on the naughty list because I had a message this evening from the Stake asking if I would be willing to meet this weekend with the SP and Seventy that is going to be at our Stake Conference (with DW, at our house).

Would you agree to meet or no? Thoughts? Advice?

If you do go, make sure you record it. They legally can't stop you and the only thing they can do is leave themselves.

Beyond that, I would ask what the meeting is about? What is the agenda/topic to be discussed? Is this going to be a discussion or a lecture?

I'd nope right on out of that, but I'm also not really a NOM, and my entire family is out of the church.

Should you go? I don't know. What do you hope to gain from the experience? Do you actually feel they'd listen to you or do you think it's more likely they'll meet with you "in a spirit of love" while pushing their own agenda of showing that they reached out to less active members? Does your wife want to meet with them?

My brother was in this position a year or so ago as he and his wife were in the middle of leaving. He was in a bishopric though so it sort of made sense they would try to intervene.

He met with a 70 who listened to his concerns and reasons for leaving the church. The 70 didn’t have any answers and stated he was aware of these issues and then suggested there wasn’t anything better churchwise out there to raise a family in. He simply suggested they reconsider. That was it. No real discussion at all.

Common sense tells me you’ll have a similar experience but you're a logical guy and probably already know that.

So use the situation for your advantage. Take your TBM wife and meet with him so she can see that these so called men of god don’t have any answers and that your concerns are valid. Don’t get into a long list of issues, but rather one or two simple issues like Joseph Smith and his teenage brides. That alone is emotionally charged especially for women but also one that any 70 will not have an answer for.

This could also be just a simple visit with the SP to less active or struggling members. We had a 70 visit our stake and report his experience with what essentially sounded like a lame elders quorum presidency visit.

Or dodge it which is probably the best answer. It just depends on what progress you want to make with the wife.

I'd do it, but mostly because I'm at the stage where I'd love to bring up the difficult issues and watch them squirm as they have no answers.

I suppose it depends on where you are, what you're comfortable with, and what you would like to get out of it.

You won't get this chance ever again, so if you have any interest in trying to get some answers or conversation, you should do it. On the other hand, if that would cause stress in your family, you'd know better than us if it's worth it.

Definitely let us know what you end up deciding!

I'd love an opportunity like this.

I'd tell Mr. Steak President that if we are going to meet, I would provide the agenda for the meeting:

(We'll just read from LDS.org and discuss.)

• Read the statement on "honesty" from Gospel Principles Ch. 31.
• Read Gospel Topics Essay: Book of Mormon Translation. (Discuss how the magic rock in the (magic?) hat is how the entire BOM we have today was created.)
• Ask SP and 70 to show one accurate depiction (video or image) of BOM translation on LDS.org (They will not be able to do so.)
• State to SP and 70: This is just one instance where leadership of "the church" has been dishonest, why should I trust them or their leaders on anything else?
• I doubt there would be much more discussion, but it would also be "fun" to discuss epistemology with them.

You could pick any number of the essays to read through with them and have the same sort of "fun."

If Mr. Steak President isn't amenable to me setting the agenda, or reading from "the church's" website, then I'd tell them to take a flying leap...

I'd probably agree to the visit, mostly due to masochist reasons.

If you expect some type of resolution, explanation or 'coming to Jesus' experience - I'd say to punt.

If you want to have a little entertainment, get frustrated by someone's inability to understand basic logic and simply have nothing better to do - then go for it.

In order to fulfill my desire to A/B test subjects that cause cognitive dissonance, I would welcome such a meeting. It would need to be under the conditions of fair agenda setting like was mentioned above.

No point to the meeting for me. Plenty of other things I'd rather do.

Red Ryder wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:27 am

It just depends on what progress you want to make with the wife.

This. And it will probably be some stupid ministering visit, very anticlimactic.

Come visit me instead. Or i could come your way. I think we live about 3 hours away. Not bad for Canadians.

It will be more fun, less anxiety and we can enjoy adult beverages if you’d like.

Just This Guy wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:05 am

If you do go, make sure you record it. They legally can't stop you and the only thing they can do is leave themselves.

Beyond that, I would ask what the meeting is about? What is the agenda/topic to be discussed? Is this going to be a discussion or a lecture?

I'd love to see someone record a conversation with a General Authority and ask one simple question: "Are you prepared to go on record saying that you have no problem whatsoever with Joseph Smith having romantic relationships with orphan girls, foster daughters, housemaids, his friends' teenage daughters, and married women?" That is the question we should be asking all of them. But the cowards do everything they can to avoid talking about it, because none of them have the guts to give a straight answer and then handle the implications.

Thanks everyone! I appreciate all the thoughts and advice!

I haven't responded to the steak guy yet (love the spelling WTF, so I will be using that from now on) as things have been busy last night and today so far. The message of course didn't give any reason for the visit other than they wanted to come over to meet. I do think if I go forward with this I definitely will ask for an agenda or outline or their purposes for the visit and intended discussion topics. If they don't have one, I will put forward a list.

For some additional background, I stopped regularly attending Mormon church services some time ago now. My slow fade seemed to be working just fine as I didn't note much of a concerted reach out effort other than some periodic contacts from some friends from our ward where I felt like the contact was definitely more of a check the box for their ministering effort rather than a more authentic friendship exchange. However, over the last couple months I feel like there has been an uptick in contact from people that I would put more in the "acquaintances" category. I figured that I must have been mentioned in some meeting where there was a discussion of those that are "struggling" or perhaps my attendance at a few Mormon holiday events with DW and family gave them some hope that I was seeing the light again.

The thing that is really funny about this is not once has anyone ever asked me why I don't attend anymore. When people ask DW about me, she suggests that they talk to me and ask me what is going on, which I appreciate and think is the proper response. But no one follows through. I keep hoping they will so I can load up some shelves. I get the impression from all of the boards I visit that might be a common theme...no one wants to know. Maybe this would be the first time?

While my first reaction was definitely to "nope right out of that", I have to tell DW about this proposed meeting which means I might have to do it. We are not really in a good place when it comes to any discussion about the Mormon religion, but things have been calm as of late. If I could do it with no holds barred, I would love nothing more than to make the steak president and his cohort squirm with questions about teenage brides, Book of Abraham, and what translation really means, but any of that will likely be viewed as disrespectful by DW and result in significant turmoil in our relationship.

The best thing that could come from all of this is to discuss with DW, be vulnerable and tell her why I feel that meeting with them really won't result in a net positive for me, her, or our marriage, and have her agree that we should decline the meeting. However, I am not sure how she is going to react and if she thinks we should meet with them, it could be the beginning of another powder keg lighting for our relationship.

I will definitely return and report.

Not Buying It wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:09 pm

Just This Guy wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:05 am

If you do go, make sure you record it. They legally can't stop you and the only thing they can do is leave themselves.

Beyond that, I would ask what the meeting is about? What is the agenda/topic to be discussed? Is this going to be a discussion or a lecture?

I'd love to see someone record a conversation with a General Authority and ask one simple question: "Are you prepared to go on record saying that you have no problem whatsoever with Joseph Smith having romantic relationships with orphan girls, foster daughters, housemaids, his friends' teenage daughters, and married women?" That is the question we should be asking all of them. But the cowards do everything they can to avoid talking about it, because none of them have the guts to give a straight answer and then handle the implications.

This idea is Most Excellent - asking if they are willing to go on record (be recorded.)

Probably the quickest way for them to nope right out of their own invitation.

SincereInquirer wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:48 pm

I will definitely return and report.

I for one eagerly await your returning and reporting.

It sounds like your name just came up on a list of less active people and they’re doing it because they “have to”. I’d say if you want to go, go. But if you don’t, don’t bother. I personally don’t see the upside to it. They’re doing it because it’s their “duty”, and unless you’re going to get some kind of kick out of it (which I can’t imagine), then... nah.

I think talking with your wife is the best thing to do, too.

If she does want to do it, this seems like a good opportunity for you to respectfully raise your concerns in an environment where she will listen. It won't do anything for the leaders, but it might be a good chance for your wife to hear you and see they you really have tried, struggled, and thought things through.

I would conditionally attend - on the condition they agree to allow the mtg to be recorded. Let them know you represent a group of inactive members (us) who are all interested in what a mtg like this looks like. If they are truly interested in helping inactives who all have very similar concerns, they will allow the mtg to be videotaped. If they are only interested in "looking good", and are too insecure to be recorded -then tell them no. You do not want any mtg to be inaccurately portrayed. The whole "I met with them, I addressed their concerns, I showed them love" is NOT honest. Record it, or no go.

When you talk about recording the meeting it makes it sound like a sting operation. You could say, "We don't have many opportunities to visit with men of your stature." Could we take a picture, and record our visit as a memento?" The worst that could happen is they could say no.

Pull out a copy of the Faith Crisis Report. Point out that the church has had the information about the major reasons people leave for over a decade now. So far all the changes they've made look like an admission of guilt. Or, just use one particular example, go to Radio Free Mormon and use the information in the last two pod casts to bring up a couple dozen issues just with the Book of Abraham. I would not cut them any slack, but offer a sincere recap of your faith crisis. Like when the "ministers" came to my house, I'm not cutting them anymore slack. I'm happy to have very open and sincere discussions with any of them. Bring it!

Will there be food? If no, then negative on the invite.
If yes, what food?