Need Advice - Potential Visit from a Seventy

This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
Thoughtful
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Re: Need Advice - Potential Visit from a Seventy

Post by Thoughtful » Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:09 pm

There is no way they will consent to recording. I'm sure they've been told not to, and they announce at conferences not to record. It's a liability for the church with Mormon leaks to have leaders on record. Of course, all the more reason to record them, IMO.

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Just This Guy
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Re: Need Advice - Potential Visit from a Seventy

Post by Just This Guy » Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:04 am

Check you local laws, but if you are in a single party consent state/providence, don't ask, just record it. They legally can't stop you. Don't tell them, just do it. What they don't know isn't something for them to worry about.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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Not Buying It
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Re: Need Advice - Potential Visit from a Seventy

Post by Not Buying It » Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:30 am

Just This Guy wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:04 am
Check you local laws, but if you are in a single party consent state/providence, don't ask, just record it. They legally can't stop you. Don't tell them, just do it. What they don't know isn't something for them to worry about.
After all, if they are who they claim to be and are God’s mouthpieces on Earth, why wouldn’t they want their wise words recorded and distributed the world over?
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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Hagoth
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Re: Need Advice - Potential Visit from a Seventy

Post by Hagoth » Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:18 am

I imagine the purpose of this meeting is just to show up and let you bask in the the glow of a honest-to-goodness General Authority and invite you back into the bosom of the church. If they're not interested in at least trying to answer some of your issues they're really just doing it for themselves, not for you. The result will probably be a sad acknowledgement you are no longer able to feel the glowing spirit of one of God's Anointed.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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SincereInquirer
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Re: Need Advice - Potential Visit from a Seventy

Post by SincereInquirer » Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:42 pm

Just a quick pop in to update...the meeting is on. :cry:

I am not excited about it. I am gathering my thoughts and preparing.

I will let you all know how it goes.
"I don't need the Mormon church to be true, I just need it to not be verifiably false." - something I read somewhere...(help me give proper citation credit if you know where this came from)

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Red Ryder
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Re: Need Advice - Potential Visit from a Seventy

Post by Red Ryder » Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:17 pm

SincereInquirer wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:42 pm
Just a quick pop in to update...the meeting is on. :cry:

I am not excited about it. I am gathering my thoughts and preparing.

I will let you all know how it goes.
Shirtless is totally acceptable!
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

Anon70
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Re: Need Advice - Potential Visit from a Seventy

Post by Anon70 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:44 am

SincereInquirer wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:42 pm
Just a quick pop in to update...the meeting is on. :cry:

I am not excited about it. I am gathering my thoughts and preparing.

I will let you all know how it goes.
Wow! Can’t wait for the update!

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Mormorrisey
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Re: Need Advice - Potential Visit from a Seventy

Post by Mormorrisey » Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:15 am

SincereInquirer wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:42 pm
Just a quick pop in to update...the meeting is on. :cry:

I am not excited about it. I am gathering my thoughts and preparing.

I will let you all know how it goes.
Good luck with that - I'll look forward to hearing how this meeting changed your life and when you're going back to church. 🙄
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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Brent
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Re: Need Advice - Potential Visit from a Seventy

Post by Brent » Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:46 am

Just put your phone on the coffee table, press recoed and say "My house, my rules, What can I do for you Gentlemen?"

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SincereInquirer
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Re: Need Advice - Potential Visit from a Seventy

Post by SincereInquirer » Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:43 pm

"This is my report"

I answered the door shirtless, per RR's suggestion...DW was mortified. I think the steak president liked it. :lol:

(OK, just kidding, I didn't.)

I decided against recording it for several reasons. I think that was the right choice, and I don't think that anything that was said was necessarily worthy of replay since most of it the discussion just seemed like more of the same.

Meeting started out feeling like a typical home teaching visit with pleasantries about family, growing up, etc. (Got to build that relationship of trust!)

Discussion ensued about "Why the Lord would send them to our house". DW cried and talked about faith. Discussion turned to me and I was asked how Brother SincereInquirer's faith was.

I responded "I have sufficient for my needs".

(OK, again, just kidding...but I wished I would have).

I told them I felt like I was doing fine. Told them I don't think people in my situation are really having a "faith crisis" as much as the Mormon church has had a "truth crisis". Told them what the things were that started me on the path to questioning and that study resulted in finding out that all foundational stories have all been deliberately white washed or just flat out aren't true.

Told them the Church has a real issue on their hands because they now have to be more open because they can't hide it. Told them I believed the Mormon church needed to apologize and that it needed to come over the pulpit in GC from the profit. Told them I can see that the Mormon church is trying to change the narrative by issuing essays, Saints book, etc. but that the pace that they are moving is going to be too slow for many, and that while the continued whitewashing and spin in those materials might be enough to inoculate some of the young members for the future, but it doesn't work for those that know the issues and still isn't honest. Told them I wished that the Mormon church would acknowledge the pain and issues that it is causing in families and provide more support for them because it is really hurting a lot of people.

Responses (trying to resolve my doubts) were:

1. "I have always known about these issues." (Gaslighting) - My response was essentially: "That is great for you, but unless you were reading materials that were hiding in the HBLL in the depths of BYU's special records or some old masters thesis document there, or were reading materials outside of Mormon church printed materials, most normal Mormons (like me) didn't." Reiterated that the Mormon church chose to tell the stories as absolute truth when they weren't, and that having him allude to this like we should have known of the issues made me feel hurt and upset.

2. "We haven't hidden anything". I admit I about lost it when he said that, and I actually cut him off and told him how that made me feel very upset and even angry, and immediately brought up Joseph Fielding Smith removing the pages with the different account of the first vision and hiding them in a safe for 30 years. Told him he can go look at the JSP project and see the evidence where the pages were removed himself. He didn't respond further or allege nothing has been hidden again, but instead went to point 3.

3. "People in the past weren't perfect and we aren't perfect now. Prophet, apostles, seventies, etc. are all just regular imperfect people." He added stories about rubbing shoulders with Mormon big wigs and acknowledging how they weren't perfect. I told him I didn't demand perfection from people, but I did think a higher standard should apply to those that are supposedly talking directly to God and telling us what he wants for us and giving us God's words and honesty shouldn't be that hard. I also brought up the apology thing again and one of the things that stood out for me was that he never apologized and he never said the Mormon church would either. Just kept talking about how no one is perfect.

4. "We aren't focused on the past...focusing on the future and preparing for 2nd Coming". My response was it is pretty disingenuous to try to brush off the past when your whole claim to authority and being the one true church is based on the past historical narrative that the Mormon church made up.

I think those are the high (and low) points.

At the end they invited me (yay commitment pattern!) to trust in God, focus on finding truth via prayer, etc. I listened and responded that while I respect that they have come to their knowledge in these things through prayer and feelings received, I don't feel like I will come to knowledge of the things they are asking via feelings when there is evidence and logic that tells us otherwise. Told them that what I can know via feelings is the love I have for DW, my kids, and family and their love for me, and that I would continue to find happiness in life by trying to focus on those things.

A few more pleasantries were exchanged, told us that they love and appreciate our family, and they were on their way.

My take away is that Hagoth nailed it:
Hagoth wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:18 am
I imagine the purpose of this meeting is just to show up and let you bask in the glow of a honest-to-goodness General Authority and invite you back into the bosom of the church. If they're not interested in at least trying to answer some of your issues they're really just doing it for themselves, not for you. The result will probably be a sad acknowledgement you are no longer able to feel the glowing spirit of one of God's Anointed.
I will post more on the aftermath with DW in a new post in the mixed faith relationship section.
"I don't need the Mormon church to be true, I just need it to not be verifiably false." - something I read somewhere...(help me give proper citation credit if you know where this came from)

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Mormorrisey
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Re: Need Advice - Potential Visit from a Seventy

Post by Mormorrisey » Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:55 pm

Great report, SI. Just goes to show that there are no answers, they have none, and will just gaslight anyone who dares to question. It's crazy.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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FiveFingerMnemonic
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Re: Need Advice - Potential Visit from a Seventy

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:06 pm

Well done! Good report. I think you represented your position very well.

Anon70
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Re: Need Advice - Potential Visit from a Seventy

Post by Anon70 » Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:19 pm

Great responses! You hit the major points and I’m once again disappointed in the church leaderships’ refusal to take responsibility.

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2bizE
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Re: Need Advice - Potential Visit from a Seventy

Post by 2bizE » Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:06 pm

Thanks for the great report
~2bizE

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wtfluff
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Re: Need Advice - Potential Visit from a Seventy

Post by wtfluff » Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:13 pm

Sounds as if this went as well as can be expected for you.

Looking forward to your Return and Report™ of the aftermath with your wife. Hopefully she was aware you weren't going to accept Mr 70's useless plattitudes.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

Who taught you how to hate?

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Hagoth
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Re: Need Advice - Potential Visit from a Seventy

Post by Hagoth » Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:28 am

Well done, thou good and faithless servant.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Not Buying It
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Re: Need Advice - Potential Visit from a Seventy

Post by Not Buying It » Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:16 pm

1. "I have always known about these issues." (Gaslighting)
Oh really? You’ve always known that Joseph Smith was having relationships with housemaids, orphans, and his foster children in their teens? Not to mention his followers’ wives? And that never bothered you? And the Church is perfectly open about it all and loudly and proudly proclaims it was all OK? “We haven’t hidden anything”.

That is a lie. A bold faced, vicious lie. When was the last time you personally discussed it in one of your talks, Mr. Big Wig Oh-So-Important GA?
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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wtfluff
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Re: Need Advice - Potential Visit from a Seventy

Post by wtfluff » Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:32 am

Not Buying It wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:16 pm
1. "I have always known about these issues." (Gaslighting)
Oh really? You’ve always known that Joseph Smith was having relationships with housemaids, orphans, and his foster children in their teens? Not to mention his followers’ wives? And that never bothered you? And the Church is perfectly open about it all and loudly and proudly proclaims it was all OK? “We haven’t hidden anything”.

That is a lie. A bold faced, vicious lie. When was the last time you personally discussed it in one of your talks, Mr. Big Wig Oh-So-Important GA?

Yeah, If I heard a statement like that from a GA in my home, I'd be tempted to ask: "Do they train you to lie after you become a GA, or do you have to prove that you can lie like a rug before you get "called?"
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

Who taught you how to hate?

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deacon blues
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Re: Need Advice - Potential Visit from a Seventy

Post by deacon blues » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:13 pm

Great report. I’m glad you saw no need to be snarky, you just gave sound, rational reasons for not buying their product.
God is Love. God is Truth

Wonderment
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Re: Need Advice - Potential Visit from a Seventy

Post by Wonderment » Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:11 pm

Wow ! You did an awesome job and were very eloquent in a stressful situation. Excellent work ! 8-)

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