Oh NOM Hear the Words of my Mouth

This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
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2bizE
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Oh NOM Hear the Words of my Mouth

Post by 2bizE » Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:21 am

Pray for me. Please. My DW has caught the RMN bug.
She has prepared a year of lessons for the home learning thing. She recently went to the temple, to do initiatories. When she got home, I gently touched her in a few choice spots and asked if she liked being touched like that in the temple. She said she didn’t have to wear the shield and be naked. She just wore her dress.
Now, she wants me to attend the temple with her once a week.
Can someone please put my name on the temple prayer rolls so my prayers will come true?
~2bizE

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DPRoberts
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Re: Oh NOM Hear the Words of my Mouth

Post by DPRoberts » Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:10 pm

Sending my prayers to Vishnu, Baal, and FSM. I hear that the FSM temples are pirate ships and prayer rolls get pinned to the main mast :twisted:

It sounds like you have a DW that is doubling down on "righteousness" or "churchyness" depending on your point of view. So her magical worldview is alive and well, as tscc would like it to be. Sorry to hear about this. No advice really, just another soul that knows somewhat what you are going through. Hang in there, brother.

On the old board alas had a very insightful post about how LDS women are indoctrinated to believe that through their righteous strength they can keep or bring back into church activity, their entire family, and do it single-handedly (with the help of gospel magic, of course). It sounds like your DW may be operating out of that playbook, as is mine.
Last edited by DPRoberts on Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or cease to be honest. -anon
The belief that there is only one truth, and that oneself is in possession of it, is the root of all evil in the world. -Max Born

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alas
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Re: Oh NOM Hear the Words of my Mouth

Post by alas » Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:31 pm

DPRoberts wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:10 pm
Sending my prayers to Vishnu, Baal, and FSM. I hear that the FWM temples are pirate ships and prayer rolls get pinned to the main mast :twisted:

It sounds like you have a DW that is doubling down on "righteousness" or "churchyness" depending on your point of view. So her magical worldview is alive and well, as tscc would like it to be. Sorry to hear about this. No advice really, just another soul that knows somewhat what you are going through. Hang in there, brother.

On the old board alas had a very insightful post about how LDS women are indoctrinated to believe that through their righteous strength they can keep or bring back into church activity, their entire family, and do it single-handedly (with the help of gospel magic, of course). It sounds like your DW may be operating out of that playbook, as is mine.
I don’t know whether to be flattered or frustrated when someone remembers my supper old posts much better than I do.

Anyway, I don’t think it is just women who are taught this idea that if you remain righteous, those you love will see your righteousness and be converted. And if you pray for them, God will take away their free agency by making them believe. They will believe because of the sheer power of your testimony.

I do think women get this lesson more because it is most often women concerned about wayward teens or inactive husbands. But it is a common story of someone remaining faithful and bringing their loved ones back to church. Even my brothers and I got it about our inactive parents, that if we were just faithful and kept going to church and told our parents how much we loved them and that we wanted them to quit drinking coffee and come back to church. It is the same idea that baring your testimony is SO powerful that nobody hearing it can deny the truth. Of course it is hogwash, but for people who are convinced they are right, surely others will eventually see it too.

I hate to compare it to us NOMs who just know our spouse will see the logic and all the good reasons for our unbelief and of course join us in our unbelief. We are RIGHT, dammit, and why can’t people see that we have TRUTH on our side. Well, that is the thinking of believers trying to set an example and live such a righteous life that us unbelievers are converted on the power of their faith. They really think that there is magic in their faith that eventually we can’t help but admit it is true. If they can just set a righteous enough example.

Besides, they are scared shittless that they might be wrong and our magical conversion makes that fear go away, so it isn’t exactly like our wanting to convince them the church is a fraud, but there is a bit of the same believing we are right and any intelligent person should be able to see that. But for them it is any good honest person has to be able to see the truth. If they can just demonstrate it well enough.

Besides, Alma, Paul, how many others did God intervene to show them an angel to convince them of the error of their ways?

But there is one angle on this that is supper hard for the women. If we are sealed in the temple, it is our husband who brings us through the veil into the CK, so if he is unrighteous, it doesn’t matter how righteous we are. If our husband doesn’t get in, then there is nobody to bring us through the veil into the CK. I don’t know if this has changed in the new temple changes. Does anyone know about the veil ceremony for women about to be married and do they still do the veil ceremony or shortened veil ceremony to give the husband her new name? Men according to this warped theology earn the CK by their righteousness. But women get called in by their husband who becomes her “lord”. Brigham even said that women didn’t have to be righteous, just have a man who wanted them for a wife. So, a woman’s exaltation totally depends on her husbands righteousness, not her own. So this makes having a righteous husband the most important thing in her whole life because her exhalation totally depends on HIS righteousness. So, this is why Mormon women are so desperate for their husband to be supper righteous. No wonder they are willing to believe that if they are just righteous enough that it will magically make their husband converted because of her wonderful example.

Although the church says that men need a wife to get to the CK, it is different in that they may need a wife to get to the top layer of CK, but women need a righteous husband to resurrect them and to bring them through the veil to the CK. So, women are much more dependent on their husbands to get in than men are on having a wife.

And while young men are learning about priesthood and learning about being missionaries, the young women are being pounded about temple marriage, temple marriage, temple marriage. That is ALL there is for females that is of any importance.

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DPRoberts
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Re: Oh NOM Hear the Words of my Mouth

Post by DPRoberts » Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:04 pm

alas wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:31 pm

I don’t know whether to be flattered or frustrated when someone remembers my supper old posts much better than I do.
I would say be flattered. You were definitely in fine form that particular post. I wish I had saved it.

Just a few weeks ago I attended a grave dedication where the person doing the dedication mentioned the future resurrection day when the deceased who was male would call the name of his wife who had passed before him. We don't teach that like it was in the days of Brigham and Heber C, but it is clearly still living priesthood folklore.
When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or cease to be honest. -anon
The belief that there is only one truth, and that oneself is in possession of it, is the root of all evil in the world. -Max Born

Reuben
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Re: Oh NOM Hear the Words of my Mouth

Post by Reuben » Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:46 am

2bizE wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:21 am
Pray for me. Please. My DW has caught the RMN bug.
She has prepared a year of lessons for the home learning thing. She recently went to the temple, to do initiatories. When she got home, I gently touched her in a few choice spots and asked if she liked being touched like that in the temple. She said she didn’t have to wear the shield and be naked. She just wore her dress.
Now, she wants me to attend the temple with her once a week.
Can someone please put my name on the temple prayer rolls so my prayers will come true?
Adding my positive thoughts for whatever might be out there listening.

Has something destabilizing happened recently? People tend to double down on their core beliefs when they feel threatened (though that's not the only motivator).

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Hagoth
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Re: Oh NOM Hear the Words of my Mouth

Post by Hagoth » Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:20 am

alas wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:31 pm
Although the church says that men need a wife to get to the CK, it is different in that they may need a wife to get to the top layer of CK, but women need a righteous husband to resurrect them and to bring them through the veil to the CK. So, women are much more dependent on their husbands to get in than men are on having a wife.
But to help balance out the trauma, men are also reminded that their wife will be taken from them and given to another if they aren't sufficiently righteous. So then you have a man with no eternal progression because somebody else got his wife and a woman who has the possibility of exaltation with some random dude. Who knows what happens to the kids. "And the Lord has told me how I can but probably won't...
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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alas
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Re: Oh NOM Hear the Words of my Mouth

Post by alas » Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:33 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:20 am
alas wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:31 pm
Although the church says that men need a wife to get to the CK, it is different in that they may need a wife to get to the top layer of CK, but women need a righteous husband to resurrect them and to bring them through the veil to the CK. So, women are much more dependent on their husbands to get in than men are on having a wife.
But to help balance out the trauma, men are also reminded that their wife will be taken from them and given to another if they aren't sufficiently righteous. So then you have a man with no eternal progression because somebody else got his wife and a woman who has the possibility of exaltation with some random dude. Who knows what happens to the kids. "And the Lord has told me how I can but probably won't...
I think the idea of being ripped from your imperfect husband and given to some unknown new husband is about as terrifying as abused kids feel about being taken away from their abusive parents and plopped into an unknown foster family. Thanks but no thanks. It turns out (and I know cause I have been there) that most kids would rather be abused by their parents they know, than plopped down with strangers. I think most Mormon women would rather end up alone (just like their unworthy husband) and end up not in the CK, than be given like property as the 36th wife of some stranger. Many of them only SAY it when they are on their way out of the church. The portrayal of the CK sounds borderline bad if you are with the people you love, but to be given like property to a stranger sounds like hell. THAT is the reward for righteousness? She doesn’t even get to choose her new husband but is given away like a pet?

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profit_seizer
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Re: Oh NOM Hear the Words of my Mouth

Post by profit_seizer » Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:48 pm

So I don't think my own DW really buys the narrative of all this *gestures at the clusterf**k that is Mormon theology* but she's doubling down too, I think because my departure makes her scared for various other reasons. Solidarity, everyone.
"The history of human thought recalls the swinging of a pendulum which takes centuries to swing. After a long period of slumber comes a moment of awakening." —Peter Kropotkin

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2bizE
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Re: Oh NOM Hear the Words of my Mouth

Post by 2bizE » Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:57 pm

My wife doesn’t really know anything of doctrine. It is all a social event. She is now studying and asking me questions. Maybe there will be some unseen benefits to this over time.
~2bizE

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wtfluff
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Re: Oh NOM Hear the Words of my Mouth

Post by wtfluff » Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:08 pm

2bizE wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:57 pm
My wife doesn’t really know anything of doctrine. It is all a social event. She is now studying and asking me questions. Maybe there will be some unseen benefits to this over time.
This actually sounds like a step in the right direction.

May the FSM touch with his noodly appendages all those who embrace "Home Study," and may they all be enlightened to LDS-Inc.'s Truth Crisis.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

Who taught you how to hate?

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Culper Jr.
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Re: Oh NOM Hear the Words of my Mouth

Post by Culper Jr. » Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:21 am

2bizE wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:57 pm
My wife doesn’t really know anything of doctrine. It is all a social event. She is now studying and asking me questions. Maybe there will be some unseen benefits to this over time.
Oh yeah, this could be a good thing. Just don't move too fast like I did. I wish my wife would still discuss church history and doctrine with me but now she HATES to include me in these discussions, so I've burnt that bridge. Good luck, sending thoughts and prayers!

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Hagoth
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Re: Oh NOM Hear the Words of my Mouth

Post by Hagoth » Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:00 am

alas wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:33 pm
She doesn’t even get to choose her new husband but is given away like a pet?
Or, to quote Heber C. Kimball, like a cow.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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alas
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Re: Oh NOM Hear the Words of my Mouth

Post by alas » Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:22 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:00 am
alas wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:33 pm
She doesn’t even get to choose her new husband but is given away like a pet?
Or, to quote Heber C. Kimball, like a cow.
Well, I was assuming that the average husband was better than HCK, (which isn’t hard) and does at least have some genuine affection for their wife, so more like a pet. ;)

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slavereeno
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Re: Oh NOM Hear the Words of my Mouth

Post by slavereeno » Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:39 pm

2bizE wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:21 am
Pray for me. Please. My DW has caught the RMN bug.
She has prepared a year of lessons for the home learning thing. She recently went to the temple, to do initiatories. When she got home, I gently touched her in a few choice spots and asked if she liked being touched like that in the temple. She said she didn’t have to wear the shield and be naked. She just wore her dress.
Now, she wants me to attend the temple with her once a week.
Can someone please put my name on the temple prayer rolls so my prayers will come true?
I will pray also to whichever deity makes you feel all tingly inside, FSM? Bearded White Male? Blue humanoid thing with 6 or more arms? Corpulent Asian Guy?

I feel your pain.

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slavereeno
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Re: Oh NOM Hear the Words of my Mouth

Post by slavereeno » Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:46 pm

alas wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:33 pm
The portrayal of the CK sounds borderline bad if you are with the people you love, but to be given like property to a stranger sounds like hell. THAT is the reward for righteousness? She doesn’t even get to choose her new husband but is given away like a pet?
C'mon Alas, my TBM friend assures me that after the flaming sword angel forces these women into marriage they eventually come around and are like really, super-duper happy the angel forced them to marry the random dude. Just like the Sabine women. /s

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jfro18
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Re: Oh NOM Hear the Words of my Mouth

Post by jfro18 » Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:14 pm

slavereeno wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:46 pm
C'mon Alas, my TBM friend assures me that after the flaming sword angel forces these women into marriage they eventually come around and are like really, super-duper happy the angel forced them to marry the random dude. Just like the Sabine women. /s
DW got really mad my assertion that Joseph abused his authority by pressuring young women to marry him, and that if you read what they wrote they almost all had spiritually happy experiences with polygamy even if we are happy it's gone today.

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MoPag
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Re: Oh NOM Hear the Words of my Mouth

Post by MoPag » Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:23 pm

I'll pray to Loki that your home study church turns out to be more fun than you could ever imagine. :D

Also I think all the fervor about the new home study will eventually die down. It won't be as fulfilling as TBMs are hoping it will be. It will be the new FHE. Just like ministering is the new HT and VT. Tons of excitement about a new coat of polish on an old, smelly turd.
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

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