Deseret news article on doubt

[dispirited]

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8656 ... tml?pg=all
Seems like more blaming the person with questions, than the history.

[Corsair]

This article is as annoying as you would expect. The church is simply not at fault at all. The article includes a flimsy model for understanding the gap between what expectations and realities of the church and there is not a lot of empathy for people doubting. It feels like the underlying theme is that you should be able to figure out your faith transition on your own and get back to faithful, obedient activity. Otherwise, you are a heretical slacker who could not grasp this level of spiritual maturity.

Many of the comments are surprisingly brutal. It's like they asked reddit/r/exmormon for a review and simply kept the insightful comments without profanity. There are a few faithful and thoughtful commenters but about half of the comments were antagonistic.

[Korihor]

One of the best responses I've ever seen for an article like this came from reddit.

"You'd think the church would learn to stay away from the Internet by now"

[shadow]

I haven't made it through the whole thing and don't know that I will after reading a sentence like this:

In other words, no one of us should ever allow a doubt to reign, when in fact it has not won that lofty perch through proving itself beyond all doubt.

How, exactly, is a doubt supposed to prove itself beyond all doubt? Beyond being incoherent, it seems like kind of a high standard, and one that they aren't advocating be used to evaluate the church's position.

I do find it kind of interesting that they seem to be applying some version of Fowler's Stages of Faith to an LDS paradigm, but with the implicit understanding that the church or restored gospel or however they want to describe it apart from the cultural church, is the actual truth of the universe.

[DPRoberts]

I haven't made it through the whole thing and don't know that I will after reading a sentence like this:

In other words, no one of us should ever allow a doubt to reign, when in fact it has not won that lofty perch through proving itself beyond all doubt.

How, exactly, is a doubt supposed to prove itself beyond all doubt? Beyond being incoherent, it seems like kind of a high standard, and one that they aren't advocating be used to evaluate the church's position.

I do find it kind of interesting that they seem to be applying some version of Fowler's Stages of Faith to an LDS paradigm, but with the implicit understanding that the church or restored gospel or however they want to describe it apart from the cultural church, is the actual truth of the universe.

I laughed out loud at the sentence Shadow quoted as the absurdity of the asymmetric standard of truth was so blatant.

The article seems to be a nonstop belittling of those who take any path through a faith crisis that is not inseparably tethered to the iron rod. Well, OK. If they can call me lazy I might as well be offended at that so as to further reinforce their cartoon of what apostasy looks like. [note: I had not thought of a cartoon as a metaphor for Mormonism until I saw the idea used in this article. The idea is delightfully re-purpose-able.]

[Mormorrisey]

I was going to comment on Not Buying It's post on that article on ldsmag, but this one to me was especially egregious, given that DN is "owned" by the Church. So I'll comment on this one. I agree with what everyone said about the article, but to me the worst comment was made near the end of the article by Barbara Gardner, apparently a BYU religion professor. In her "research" of people who stay in the church, she says this:

"What I have been able to understand is why people stay," she said. She boiled it down to character. "Those who stayed active in the church exhibited patience, faith and trust in Jesus Christ, hope, knowledge and wisdom, obedience, diligence and persistence, humility, repentance and forgiveness, charity and virtue."

So those who go inactive or leave have no character, and are impatient, faithless, are anti-Christs, and full of despair, ignorance, stupidity and disobedience, are lazy and give up easily, are prideful and lack forgiveness, charity and virtue. I'd love to say that it was this woman's like, opinion, man, but didn't Ballard say this at last conference? That those who bail on Good Ship Zion are these things too? When it comes from the top, it shouldn't be any surprise to us that this kind of crap is going to be repeated. The demonization of doubters is not going to end well, methinks. Especially when EVERYONE knows one, and frankly, they're not all that bad. Put me in a lousy mood all day when I read this load of bollocks.

[Red Ryder]

My brain hurts from reading that.

Clearly enough people are leaving now so these types of articles are starting to become common place.

This paragraph bothers me. We're to assume our cultural understandings are wrong or distorted? Who is the source of these distortions? The institutional dishonest church!

"Do not have someone else's faith crisis," Williams added. "Don't have a non-LDS faith crisis. If you think you are having a faith crisis, make sure to find out what faith really is in the context of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. … Assume that most of your cultural understandings are wrong or at least distorted. Then give the restored gospel a chance at your mind and especially at your soul."

Note to self: Find new things to read and let go of Mormonism and their lame attempts at squelching the doubters doubts!

[ThirdTier]

The article drives a wedge. My hope is that friends and spouses of those who leave for personal integrity reasons will see it for what it is.

[Just This Guy]

One of the church's biggest fears is that something they deem bad get normalized. Race, gender preference, etc. Once people get to know someone the church has declared to be "evil" the person's ideas change and grow to accept the person. Eventually, they decide that the church is in fact wrong in deciding who is evil and the person who they are condemning.

The church desperately fears people will get to know more gay/lesbian people. It is suspect that is a large part of the November policy. They don't want church members to associate with married people in a same gender relationship be cause it ultimately undermines the church. To make it worse, if enough members come to find they accept these evil people, the church will have to accept them as well.

I wonder if that same thing is going on with regard to people leaving the church. SOOO many people have left, that even in Utah, people can't help but know people who have left the church. If they get to know them, the run the risk of learning why they left and that not only are they not evil, the person really at fault is the church. So to try to stem this bleeding. The church will do anything that it can do to tell people to stay away from people who left to try to minimize the damage.

[MerrieMiss]

Terrible article, but at least a good number of the commenters have got it right.

The thing is, I've been kicking and screaming for years. Just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it isn't happening. It's called depression, anger, family arguments, and marital discord. I've endured headaches and physical pain from dealing with the cognitive dissonance. And let's not even start on the amount of shame for not being good enough to "get it" or have a testimony.

I recently told my mother that the church has never made me happy. To which she replied, "I know." From the time I was about eleven I've had problems with the church and I've been kicking and throwing faith-promoting temper tantrums since then, all while taking in large helpings of shame.

[Not Buying It]

LDS culture must welcome questions and questioners, but Mormons who experience doubts should fight for their faith rather than surrender it lightly or lazily, Elder Hafen and other speakers said Wednesday at a BYU conference on the interface of faith and intellect.

I am really trying to control myself here. "Lightly or lazily"??? Who here didn't have sleepless nights? Who here didn't go through a period of intense agony trying to sort all of this out? NO ONE I EVER KNEW HAD A FAITH CRISIS AND SURRENDERED THEIR FAITH LIGHTLY OR LAZILY. Sure, it probably happens, but I never saw it happen that way.

Cowards. Once again they blather on about faith crises without ever addressing or even mentioning the specific things that cause those crises. They cast aspersions on those who decide the Church is a sham, but don't bother to mention it's because they couldn't accept a Prophet who was a sexual predator, a Book of Mormon describing a massive civilization that left behind exactly zero archeological evidence, facsimiles in the Book of Abraham with translations that are an obvious fraud, etc. and etc.

They shouldn't make it sound like they have the moral high ground. I have far more respect for those who left the Church with a sense of moral outrage than those who stay faithful to it by smothering their sense of morality to death. This article disgusts me.

[Not Buying It]

A few choice quotes from the comments on the article:

I found this article to be insulting of Elder Hans Mattson, the General Authority alluded to in the article. Why did this story not link to the New York Times story where he explained things in his words? This is an in-group message to discourage further questioning.

It's also ridiculous to say people are leaving a cartoon version of the Church when the Church, through its marketing department and general authorities, wrote, directed, filmed, edited, and marketed this cartoon.

I know the Church is trying to change the black and white mentality, but it has to acknowledge that it created the monster it is trying to slay. In the process, many people, myself included, will probably leave the church, kicking and screaming, because we just couldn't make it work, despite all our efforts.

So, when someone grows up in the church, is relatively in-the-dark about what goes on in the outside world, is presented only with LDS-approved content during their entire childhood and adolescence, attends three hours of Church lessons each Sunday, attends four years of seminary training, attends Stake activities like overnight Youth Conferences, studies in the MTC for 9 weeks, serves a two-year mission in which he continues his training and study every morning and can't even pick up a newspaper or a magazine to read - that person's cultural understandings are wrong or distorted? Seriously!? His entire life's religious training from his cradle to his RM homecoming has been directed almost exclusively by the Church and its leaders, and yet it is still his cultural understanding that is distorted? Really? The Church didn't do anything to create this cartoon, it is all HIS cultural understanding that is distorted or wrong?

These comments are right on the money - and the Church needs to own that instead of trying to make people like me feel like I gave up my faith "lazily and lightly".

[Mormorrisey]

This article disgusts me.

Jeez, tell us how you really feel.

After reading your post on the similar ldsmag piece, Not Buying It, I had a feeling you'd be chiming in on this one. And you and Corsair are correct, it's the comments that really highlight the problems with the article. Not unlike when the DN called on people to vote for "character" and the Trump supporters lambasted the editorial in the comments section, it seems that those in the Morridor are not as submissive to the offical church organ as thought previously. Wow. It was really illuminating. The dudes/dudettes in charge of the Church's media presence must be sweating pretty hard now after ploughing through (sorry, Canadian spelling) all those nasty comments. Or maybe they are just busy trying to ignore this with other projects. Say, #lighttheworld. Ugh.

[Vlad the Emailer]

Damage control. That's what all these articles and conference talks are.....damage control.

If they can demonize you before you even know what they're talking about (because they sure as hell won't tell you!), they think they have a chance of keeping you from ever approaching the unknown. Intelligent, patient, thoughtful people stay, so therefore those that don't stay, obviously lack such lofty virtues. And you would never be like that, right??? Naw, they didn't think so. Now come to church, serve it, yea, by all means, go ahead and worship it (or at least it's leaders). Just don't forget to bring your checkbook.

[Not Buying It]

This article disgusts me.

Jeez, tell us how you really feel.

After reading your post on the similar ldsmag piece, Not Buying It, I had a feeling you'd be chiming in on this one.

Yeah, I guess I am a bit predictable that way. But this article sure set me off.

...it seems that those in the Morridor are not as submissive to the offical church organ as thought previously. Wow. It was really illuminating. The dudes/dudettes in charge of the Church's media presence must be sweating pretty hard now after ploughing through (sorry, Canadian spelling) all those nasty comments. Or maybe they are just busy trying to ignore this with other projects. Say, #lighttheworld. Ugh.

Yeah, it is kind of interesting, gone are the days when they can have an article like this and no one kicks up a fuss. Really, it is symptomatic of how out of touch the leadership is - Elder Hafen and Brother Millet can talk like this in their little true-believer echo chambers and no one says anything, but when people in the real world here this kind of talk there will be objections.

Anyway, despicable article all the way around.

[Culper Jr.]

I am really trying to control myself here. "Lightly or lazily"??? Who here didn't have sleepless nights? Who here didn't go through a period of intense agony trying to sort all of this out? NO ONE I EVER KNEW HAD A FAITH CRISIS AND SURRENDERED THEIR FAITH LIGHTLY OR LAZILY. Sure, it probably happens, but I never saw it happen that way.

^^^This! Very same thoughts when I read this. How many nights have I stayed up reading, studying, praying, hoping to find something that would explain my doubts and let me know that I haven't sacrificed so much my entire life for a lie! They think I'm taking this lightly or lazily?! It's like I told my dad recently, this is painful for me, but I cannot say something is true that is demonstrably false.

[wtfluff]

Thanks to everyone on this thread: I will NOT be reading this article. Saved me a bit of time, and most likely some tooth enamel, so thanks again...

Thumb-Bubbles-Rush.jpg (28.04 KiB) Viewed 7171 times

[Oliver]

Geez, this article tees me off. It brings back memories of my mission. If you had doubts, weren't having success, it was all on you.

Same with callings post-mission (bishopric, stake presidency, high council). It dredges up the guilt I felt when I finally realized what a tool I had been and the shameful way I treated others who didn't knuckle under and think and act as the "lords" annointed directed they should.

If only I could turn back time...

[moksha]

Funny that an article attributing a loss of belief to having a cartoon image of the Church, ends with a cartoon image of the remaining membership.

[document]

"Those who stayed active in the church exhibited patience, faith and trust in Jesus Christ, hope, knowledge and wisdom, obedience, diligence and persistence, humility, repentance and forgiveness, charity and virtue."

The article was pretty standard, although this item made me laugh out loud. My experience with ex-Mormons has primarily been those who exited the church to another sect, not to atheism. Without exception, those who leave sideways like me, generally feel a deeper connection to their spirituality and Jesus than when they were in Mormonism. The narrative is the opposite.

If you take my experience and belief, I'm more active and strong in my Christian beliefs since leaving Mormonism. The style of worship, the emphasis on rules and cultural conformity, the strong hierarchial structure, stifled my belief and almost chased me out of Christianity. It was destroying my personal religious belief, understanding, and my desire to participate. Now I worship the way that I feel suits me, but that also includes study, prayer, and strong volunteerism in my community and church. My religion has deepened.

Now, if you took someone like my siblings, who are LDS believers through-and-through, they would probably not do very well in my religious structure as they thrive under the style of Mormon worship, of covenants, of strict rules and cultural conformity, and the strong hierarchical structure. They believe in Christ, they follow his teachings, but they do so in their own ways. I think my sister would be lost in my environment just as I was in hers.

Going with the cartoon quote above. To believe that a one-size-fits-all religion is suitable for the entire population of the world is a cartoonish view of religion. At the same time, to believe that Mormonism is not suitable for anyone, then that is equally cartoonish.

Some find Mormonism wonderful, some find Christianity wonderful, some find other religions wonderful, and some find Atheism wonderful. To each their own, but nobody wins if we point out the other side and say, "Look at those idiots over there!"