Still doing it wrong

This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
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alas
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Still doing it wrong

Post by alas » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:18 am

Sometimes I think, hey, I got this mixed marriage thing down. Then the church does something, like change the temple ceremony and forbid us to talk about it, and I am mouthing off about the (insert swear word) church leaders who say the church doesn’t apologize even when it hurts people. And so feel free to hurt people.

I got off on a side issue, safer to yell about the tangents than to yell about how much my wedding day hurt because of the temple. And I hurt his feelings, as f he is guilty about being a priesthood a**hat as well as the nincompoops that mansplain why women should not want priesthood and make like it is all about stacking chairs, taking out the trash, and helping families move. As if what women do in stacking chairs, taking out the trash, and helping people move doesn’t exist, but priesthood is just a bunch of busy work and we shouldn’t want to be equal.

I talked about how as young women we had lessons on how we should polish our brother’s shoes because they had to go to early Sunday morning priesthood meeting, and how the young men lorded over us that they were deacons and better than us, and hell, he was in my ward as a teenager. Yeah, I can’t understand how he personalized that one.

But why does he think out of all those boys in our ward, I married him. Cause he wasn’t like that.

But it hurts that we can’t talk about things. I have never talked to him about how the temple made me feel that God doesn’t even have daughters. Just the wives of his precious sons. I apparently didn’t have any God other than my husband. And the Mormon God obviously doesn’t love me. And I can’t tell him that. Because he will say, “but I never treated you like that.” And he didn’t. The stupid sexist garbage of a church did. And when I get angry, he defends the church. And that makes it hard because sometimes it feels like he sides with the church. He sees some of the problems, but doesn’t know what to do with them. And he can’t quite separate himself from the church.

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Not Buying It
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Re: Still doing it wrong

Post by Not Buying It » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:33 am

I am sorry, alas. That someone who has been doing this as long as you have still has to deal with these feelings speaks to the power of what we are up against. As you have so often provided comfort and advice so many times on this forum to others, I hope you get some of the same.

You are not doing it wrong. You should be able to speak your truth, and the fact that the Church has so many of our loved ones convinced that we don't have the right to do so means there is something wrong with the Church, not something wrong with us. I wish there was something I could say, but the Church has its claws deep into many of our loved ones, and in some cases there is little we can do to change that.

But know at least you have helped many people here, and deserve a little comfort yourself. I hope it comes.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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jfro18
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Re: Still doing it wrong

Post by jfro18 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:36 am

So sorry... you've provided so much help on these boards so I hate to see when you're on the bad end of a conversation in a mixed faith marriage. You've helped me on a number of occasions in my short-ish time here so seeing you still dealing with this really hits home.

I don't really know what to add because it sounds so familiar and I've found no answers either.

This paragraph definitely resonates with me right now though:
But it hurts that we can’t talk about things. I have never talked to him about how the temple made me feel that God doesn’t even have daughters. Just the wives of his precious sons. I apparently didn’t have any God other than my husband. And the Mormon God obviously doesn’t love me. And I can’t tell him that. Because he will say, “but I never treated you like that.” And he didn’t. The stupid sexist garbage of a church did. And when I get angry, he defends the church. And that makes it hard because sometimes it feels like he sides with the church. He sees some of the problems, but doesn’t know what to do with them. And he can’t quite separate himself from the church.
We had some rough conversations last week because she wants our kid to go again (which he started this week), and every time I brought up something about the church that I thought was harmful (policy on gays, polygamy still being doctrine, teaching false history, teaching to doubt your doubts and ignore outside sources) she immediately defended the church and made it personal ("You've made it clear that you think I knowingly spread lies when I teach Sunday school!"). And to your point she even brought up the "have I ever made you feel that way? I don't have to agree with the church 100%, but I believe that they are inspired from God and this is what God wants even if it is difficult" line on a few issues.

I wish I had answers and obviously you are way better at this than I am. Just sorry you're going through it and I'm sorry that so many women in the church who now have to really assess what they went through before the changes this week now have to try and rationalize why the change now is supposed to magically erase 100+ years of systematic sexism... and then wonder why the rest of the church is still as sexist today as last week outside of the temple ceremony.

It would be so nice if there was some way to break people from the hold of the church for just one day (even a few hours) to go over the problems, but even the best approaches have varying degrees of success at best.

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Mormorrisey
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Re: Still doing it wrong

Post by Mormorrisey » Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:06 am

jfro18 wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:36 am
So sorry... you've provided so much help on these boards so I hate to see when you're on the bad end of a conversation in a mixed faith marriage. You've helped me on a number of occasions in my short-ish time here so seeing you still dealing with this really hits home.
I feel the same way, alas. Sorry this has happened to you - but you know my situation, I can only offer empathy - and I hope you tell him what you said here, that you married him because he wasn't a patriarchy jerk. The carrot usually helps!

Jana Riess has a great article on this, that stirred some debate in our house:

https://religionnews.com/2019/01/03/maj ... for-women/

But what was even more significant for me, was the comments on Jana's post by a dude with an aptly-named (I'm assuming priesthood holder) net handle "Believe in America" who claims the church is in apostasy for this. I'll quote some gems:

"If the wife no longer needs to "hearken" to her husband then what is the point of him presiding in the home? Do we say that when the Bishop or Stake President Presides we don't need to listen and follow their counsel? If the wife doesn't hearken to her husband than he is not the "patriarch" of his home any longer. That means that he no longer is the only person that receives revelation for his family. Do people have any idea how much this changes the Church? This is the CORE of his Priesthood duties; to receive inspiration for his family. And the family is the core of the Gospel - not the church, not even the Temple, THE FAMILY. This has essentially removed a major component of Priesthood authority. How does this even work in the eternal scheme? Are their some Eternal families that now have the husband as the head and some that do not because some took the covenant after Jan 1, 2019? Or are the old covenants now invalid? This is not some minor change. This has deep, far reaching doctrinal problems that changes many, many concepts in the Church. Many sections of the Doctrine and Covenants where men are blessed as revelators for their homes are now called into question. Section 132 is now in question. This is insanity!"

And my personal favourite, on why women need to be meek:

"The greatest women ever were meek. Sarah, Ruth, Mary, Mary Magdalene, the woman at the well, Sariah. The greatest example of all: our Heavenly Mother who hasn't said a single word since the beginning of time."

So much to unpack there. But I did tell Sis. M that dudes like this are the reason that the temple changes were necessary, but that the IDEAS behind the old temple ceremony for some priesthood holders are never going to change. And I hope she's grateful, like you are, alas, that she didn't marry "Believe in America." But that doesn't mean that you or I are not going to hear this crap at church, or that policies aren't going to be enacted even locally by people who believe this nonsense, and on and on. It's annoying to keep having these conversations with believing spouses, but as an advocate of the long game, they are very necessary, and you did well not to personalize it. But it sucks nonetheless.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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Red Ryder
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Re: Still doing it wrong

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:20 am

Alas, If you're doing it wrong then we are all in trouble!

I think you've spent more time in the past than most of us young whipper snappers and as such you've seen some of the really bad patriarchy and misogyny up close and in person.

We have to acknowledge the church is making changes to fix this stuff even though the pace is extremely slow and we will never see it morph to something acceptable to us in our lifetimes. So we vote with our feet but we never heal.

Maybe it's time to let go of our anger towards the church and stop carrying it around after all these years so we can bloom where we are planted?

Is that even possible for us?

What if you two love birds (who've been married for a million years) go and renew your wedding vows? Then you could have a new better experience to replace the anger and hurt from your mormon temple wedding day? I hear Hawaii is always nice, or the Grand Canyon, or Vegas? Pick Vegas and I'll bring a mini van loaded full of NOM's to attend and celebrate with you!

Who wants to party with Alas and her husband in Vegas??
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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wtfluff
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Re: Still doing it wrong

Post by wtfluff » Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:26 am

Ugh...

It sounds like you found a "soft spot" Alas, and he reverted back to thinking "I am the church, she's attacking me." It's amazing how LDS-Inc. taught us to tie our brains in knots, and completely set aside logic and reason, and literally "not think." You may have pointed out something about the church that he sees, but due to the cognitive dissonance it causes, he can't admit to himself that it exists.

Relationships are (insert swear word) hard, and then you insert cult-think, and they get even harder.

Good luck. If anyone can figure out how to get through to him, it's you Froggy!


Edit:
Red Ryder wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:20 am
Who wants to party with Alas and her husband in Vegas??
[Fluffy raises hand] ME!
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

Brilliant.

Anon70
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Re: Still doing it wrong

Post by Anon70 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:16 pm

Tough stuff. You’ve been doing it longer than I so I only have empathy and support for your situation. My DH is pretty mellow and generally accepting of my views that I forget and sometimes he feels I cross the line and stomp on him. I hope I get better over time addressing my concerns and he gets better over time separating himself from the church/priesthood/patriarchy. Sigh. I do have friends in mixed faith marriages where neither are Mormon. Those seem to trudge along more smoothly. So my take is its Mormonism and not the mixed faith marriage. Shrug.

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2bizE
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Re: Still doing it wrong

Post by 2bizE » Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:53 pm

So, we can’t talk about the temple outside the temple? That isn’t new is it? I thought that was something everyone disregarded.
If in a mix relationship, what if you just tell your TBM partner what the changes are. They are all over the Internet. Then both partners know the changes.
~2bizE

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slavereeno
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Re: Still doing it wrong

Post by slavereeno » Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:18 pm

Sorry this caused some hurt feelings, I have really appreciated your advice here. I hope this gets smoothed over for you and spouse.

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alas
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Re: Still doing it wrong

Post by alas » Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:18 pm

Anon70 wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:16 pm
Tough stuff. You’ve been doing it longer than I so I only have empathy and support for your situation. My DH is pretty mellow and generally accepting of my views that I forget and sometimes he feels I cross the line and stomp on him. I hope I get better over time addressing my concerns and he gets better over time separating himself from the church/priesthood/patriarchy. Sigh. I do have friends in mixed faith marriages where neither are Mormon. Those seem to trudge along more smoothly. So my take is its Mormonism and not the mixed faith marriage. Shrug.
Thanks everyone for the support. I guess it shows that even years into this, it isn’t good to push your spouse too fast. They dig in their heals. It seems like instinctive behavior because it is so ingrained into them.


This above made me laugh because I crossed the line and he felt stomped on. Usually we can keep from hurting each other’s feelings. This was just a bad combination of me feeling old hurts, and him being extra touchy because something he hasn’t figured out is eating him about the church. I think I stirred the cognitive dissonance. He is as liberal as TBMs can be and still stay mostly active. But we are snowbirds, down south for the winter. But that means he isn’t really a member of either ward and they have not found a calling they want done 1/2 the year. And during the time we have been migrating seasonally, he has gotten less and less active. He hasn’t been to SS or PH, in about two years. So, he is struggling to stay active and involved, and I remind him of the valid reasons I am inactive. And that triggered a cognitive dissonance dump. He said that he got mad cause I am correct. Ouch.

And I feel like the temple thing being done at all is just more white washing, but just where do I talk about that?

The problem with the church saying don’t talk about it is that the church refuses to see its own responsibility in it all. It wants to sweep hundreds of years of treating women as second class under the rug without any of us noticing that it refuses to even say, we were wrong.they are not saying that this changes the doctrine, just like they did with giving blacks the priesthood, without saying that the whole fence sitter doctrine was wrong. And really what has changed? I heard that the couple playing Adam and Eve still has Eve covenant to hearken but the congregation just doesn’t make the covenant. So, do women hearten or not? They want us to interpret it the way that makes us happy, so they can keep both the conservative members and the liberal members. The audience doesn’t say the hearten covenant, they either the priesthood is something or it is nothing, depending on who is listening. just observe the covenant. And does the husband still know his wife’s new name so he can taker her through the veil into the CK? Apparently that has not changed. So,, really has anything changed underneath or is this a big white wash job? Once again, the church refuses to clarify doctrine. Is polygamy still practiced in the CK? Bet you money that Rusty thinks it is. Why should he have to choose between wives? But women have to choose to believe they are worth less than men, or that God is a jerk, or that the church is dead wrong about stuff.

The thing that set off the argument was that when YM are being trained for the priesthood, it is this wonderful thing that gives them more power and authority in their little finger than the Pope (or their own mother) but if women say anything, suddenly priesthood is all about stacking chairs, taking out garbage, and helping people move. But that ignores that women also stack chairs, take out garbage, and help people move. The church wants it both ways at the same time. They want men to want priesthood, but they want women not to, so they say things to one group, and the opposite to others.

My husband said “they teach the young men that it is fine to exercise unrighteousness dominion.” He was referring to the way they teach the YM they are supper special because of priesthood, then wonder why they act like arrogant jerks. They never define unrighteous dominion as demanding that your wife keep her temple covenants. But exactly what do they mean by hearken? We knew what obey meant, they change it to something so archaic it isn’t in spell check or most people’s vocabulary, not clarifying what it really is, they encourage men like mentioned above to think they get to rule over women, meanwhile they claim when confronted that they really teach equality between husbands and wives. They want preside and they want equal, but they can’t have both. They want the supper conservative to stay happy, and the liberals to stay happy and so they talk out of both sides of their mouth. They say the prophet will never lead us astray, but when confronted with teaching blind obedience, they claim to teach members to pray for confirmation. Then they turn around and bad mouth a prophet who tells the people what they want to hear. Well, they should know all about that.

Anyway thanks for the support. And everyone hang in there.

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Red Ryder
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Re: Still doing it wrong

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:32 pm

So are we still going to Vegas? :lol:
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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alas
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Re: Still doing it wrong

Post by alas » Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:39 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:32 pm
So are we still going to Vegas? :lol:
I have a 50th wedding anniversary in 2021. See, I am o.l.d. I lam thinking over having a renew the vows. Of course if tRump keeps it up we are fleeing to Australia. And that’s a long ways for y’all to come

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achilles
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Re: Still doing it wrong

Post by achilles » Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:48 pm

I kind of want to tell your husband that it's like the Church knows it did something wrong, and is trying to cheat on repentance by skipping over confession and asking for forgiveness, and going straight to an attempt at restitution. It's insulting if it's being done by another person, but even more painful when done by an institution with so much power over our lives. Why would it work for the Church if it doesn't work for the individual?
“For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.”

― Carl Sagan

Reuben
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Re: Still doing it wrong

Post by Reuben » Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:02 am

alas, thanks for setting a good example of being courageous enough to admit shortcomings. It's so easy to focus on only the flattering when you put yourself out there...

My mixed-faith relationship has been pretty smooth lately. When it's not, it's usually my fault. Case in point: I really upset my wife when I told her recently, while in a bad mood brought on by having to come out to my fairly judgmental parents, that maybe in our couple prayer, which she always offers, she could ask God to help his church not be prideful and abusive.

Yeah, I think the church needs that. But she identifies with it enough to feel blamed, hasn't determined whether it is prideful and abusive, and took my statement as a particularly shaming way to make the point that it can't possibly be God's One True Church.

I do think it can't possibly be God's One True Church, but that wasn't what I was getting at. Mostly, I want to be stood up for. When I'm feeling threatened or discriminated against, I just want her to take my side.

Isn't it lovely that we get all these chances to practice on each other?
You were born to trust, not fear. It is your birthright.

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Lithium Sunset
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Re: Still doing it wrong

Post by Lithium Sunset » Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:01 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:20 am
Alas, If you're doing it wrong then we are all in trouble!
Amen to that!
"The real things haven't changed. It is still best to be honest and truthful; to make the most of what we have; to be happy with simple pleasures; and have courage when things go wrong." -Laura Ingalls Wilder

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