To clean or not to clean?

This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
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Not Buying It
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Re: To clean or not to clean?

Post by Not Buying It » Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:40 pm

Linked wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:24 am
Not Buying It wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:15 am
I have to disagree with those of you who think cleaning the chapel is a good opportunity to serve your fellow ward members. True service isn't compelled, it doesn't involve manipulation, and certainly is not the result of social bullying. The Church is demanding something of you, and you are acceding to its demands. In my ward they don't ask you to clean, they assign you. The Church didn't gently ask if members would start cleaning the building 20 years ago, they demanded it. There most certainly is manipulation involved with it.

I mean, whatever you have to tell yourselves to make yourselves feel better about it if you have to play along for your spouse, but it's another way you give up a little bit of your autonomy to an organization who doesn't think you have any. And you are helping them feel like they can get away with it. If every member refused to clean the Church, the Brethren might decide members aren't so easily pushed around and take a different approach. They have as much power over you as you let them have. Personally, I don't give them that anymore, and if my fellow ward members have disgusting bathrooms, that's the Church's fault, not mine.

Not trying to be offensive, that's just how I see it.
Using "whatever you have to tell yourselves..." and "not trying to be offensive" is a pretty good sign that you are trying to be offensive, or you are being offensive without even trying.

I can simultaneously be able and willing to say no to the bishop about the things that really matter to me (no tithing settlement, no tithing, selective about callings, etc) and be thoughtful about what parts of the church I am okay with, or even support. Spending an hour with my wife and kids cleaning a building we use is a good activity to me, so I do it. I consider that a higher level of autonomy than saying no to any activity because it is commanded by the church.
I apologize if I was offensive. I was sincere when I said I wasn't trying to be.

The Church doesn't care why the members do what it says. It doesn't care if members clean the chapel because they want to help family members, because they don't know how to say no, because they feel guilt, because their best friend asked them, because they love serving God and think it is a great way to show their love for him, because they really love cleaning toilets, because they have a toilet brush fetish - the reason members comply is completely irrelevant to the Church. All it cares is that it makes a command and the members acquiesce to it. The reasons for acquiescence are immaterial.

Until such time as the members vote with their feet, the Church will continue to make unreasonable demands. To my way of thinking, it is wrong of the Church to make this demand of members, but it will continue to make this demand so long as members comply.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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Linked
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Re: To clean or not to clean?

Post by Linked » Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:12 pm

Not Buying It wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:40 pm
I apologize if I was offensive. I was sincere when I said I wasn't trying to be.

The Church doesn't care why the members do what it says. It doesn't care if members clean the chapel because they want to help family members, because they don't know how to say no, because they feel guilt, because their best friend asked them, because they love serving God and think it is a great way to show their love for him, because they really love cleaning toilets, because they have a toilet brush fetish - the reason members comply is completely irrelevant to the Church. All it cares is that it makes a command and the members acquiesce to it. The reasons for acquiescence are immaterial.

Until such time as the members vote with their feet, the Church will continue to make unreasonable demands. To my way of thinking, it is wrong of the Church to make this demand of members, but it will continue to make this demand so long as members comply.
I suppose my line for "unreasonable" has become "do I want to or am I with my family?" for now. Part of that is that I do not want the church to divide my family, so I consider most activities where I am spending time with my family "reasonable". I think this helps prevent the church from coming between me and my family. But, each person's line for "unreasonable" is theirs to decide.

As for the church caring, I presume you are referring to church leaders. I try not to take what they want into account in my decision making. Ultimately I am trying to live for me and my family and whether I please or pain church leaders is irrelevant.

But it would be painfully amusing to watch the leaders if members began refusing to clean the church en masse. First they would apply guilt, then more guilt. Eventually they would cave and re-hire janitors, and probably say the members just weren't ready to live the higher law. Maybe they would even say member's lack of obedience in janitorial duties were a sign of a lack of faith and that's why the church isn't growing faster.

I agree that the way the church demands service is not respectful and doesn't lead to willing service from members and I would prefer them to change.

Sorry OP if this isn't helpful. I hope you can find a path that works well for you. Sorry the church puts us in situations like these.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut

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crossmyheart
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Re: To clean or not to clean?

Post by crossmyheart » Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:26 pm

Lithium Sunset wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:28 pm
My problem is I used to know people who were paid to clean. Older members who could make a modest income with a pretty easy job. They pulled that rug out from under their feet when they have plenty of money to spare.... that bothers me a hell of a lot.
That is my biggest hang up. I have known two salt of the earth families who worked for the church their whole lives as janitors. Only to have it taken away from them and at a time in their life when they had aged out of other career possibilities.

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crossmyheart
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Re: To clean or not to clean?

Post by crossmyheart » Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:38 pm

I appreciate hearing the opposing points of view. I would not have asked if I wasn't conflicted myself. I appreciate the advice and even Red Rider's hilarious story! It is so cathartic to have a place like NOM to be able to bounce off frustrations.

In the end I chose not to go. My anxiety and my personal morals kept me from going. My husband took our two children and cleaned the church with another family-who, shockingly, are our assigned ministering / home teachers.

We discussed my decision just before he left. He made the statement that I have taken our children to lots of events and activities without him and it is okay if he takes them to this one. I told him if the other family asks about my whereabouts that I am not home sick, but rather I am a conscientious objector. He was glad that they did not inquire of my whereabouts. He said if they had asked if he would have just told them to ask me.

If we continue to attend, then I would not have a problem going to cleaning building that we use and benefit from. However considering that we have not been inside the building in a year really did not sit well with me that we would be assigned so quickly after a couple of weeks of attendance.

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redjay
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Re: To clean or not to clean?

Post by redjay » Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:32 pm

the answer is no.No I do not want to clean public lavatories in any circumstances.
At the halfway home. I'm a full-grown man. But I'm not afraid to cry.

hmb
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Re: To clean or not to clean?

Post by hmb » Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:10 am

Church buildings do not feel that clean. They are vacuumed, but don't really get CLEAN. Maybe it's being an adult vs a kid, but they feel kind of grungy compared to the longtime past. It reminds me of a McDonald's Playland. Cleaned, but not clean. Gives me the willies. Are church buildings ever given a deep cleaning??? Think of all the sticky little fingers, fecal critters, and other invisible smears of stuff. On the other hand, we have developed great immunities.

Thoughtful
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Re: To clean or not to clean?

Post by Thoughtful » Sun Jan 20, 2019 10:30 pm

hmb wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:10 am
Church buildings do not feel that clean. They are vacuumed, but don't really get CLEAN. Maybe it's being an adult vs a kid, but they feel kind of grungy compared to the longtime past. It reminds me of a McDonald's Playland. Cleaned, but not clean. Gives me the willies. Are church buildings ever given a deep cleaning??? Think of all the sticky little fingers, fecal critters, and other invisible smears of stuff. On the other hand, we have developed great immunities.
They are absolutely filthy and grimy. The cleaners provided aren't great. The tools are terrible, the people are begrudging and amateurs. What could possibly go wrong?

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blazerb
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Re: To clean or not to clean?

Post by blazerb » Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:51 pm

Do other people get told that you have been "assigned" to clean the building? We are told that if we miss it is our responsibility to find a replacement. I think this is crazy.

I go to clean usually. I still go to church parties and enjoy some benefits in my post-tithing days. There is no way to donate money to the ward to help offset what I cost. All money goes to SLC. I figure cleaning is my donation.

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