askreality - Deconstructing Jehova's Witnesses Control

[græy]

I've been listening to MormonStories 1044-1050: Leah, Cody, and Brinley. I'm still only about half way through now, but there's a part in 1047 I think, where they discuss Leah's sister and her journey out of the church. The mentioned her brother-in-law putting together the "My LDS Journey" videos in which he deconstructs the Jehova's Witnesses processes for mind control and manipulation, because that was safer than deconstructing Mormonism directly. This caught my attention so I looked them up this morning.

As it turns out I had watched the 1st video at some point in history, but had stopped there. This time I watched all 8 episodes.

https://www.youtube.com/user/askreality/playlists

I am... speechless. I feel sick. I just... blah.

At one point he shares a JW instructional video where a cartoon mother manipulates and guilts her ~6 year old boy into throwing out a new toy because it "would make Jehova sad." It reminded me so much of things we've said, phrases we've used, to elicit a specific response from our own children in regards to mormonism.

I started my "faith transition" almost three years ago this month. For three years I've maintained that while the church is not all it claims to be, it is good. From my calling in the bishopric I am privy to a lot of details of things going on in the ward. There is so much... drama. So much bickering and needless hurt. But at the same time there is good. Most of the people do genuinely care for those around them. Most of them would happily serve anyone in need. I have benefited from associating with them, and I would not have done so outside of the church.

But now?

I am still playing the long game. I don't see a way out of my calling without severe personal, social, and familial consequences. I have been slowly letting my wife know of my new standing in belief. She is still not 100% of aware of where I am.

But now?

I don't know if I can do this anymore. Breathe... slow down... breathe.

[Red Ryder]

Isn't it amazing when you start to see similar patterns emerge both inside and outside of your paradigm? One of the first universal parallels amongst all religious foundations I was surprised by was seeing how often the founder succumbs to the power, money, and sex with congregation members. Michael Shermer just talked about this on the Joe Rogan podcasts. Excellent podcast interview.

The second universal parallels I began to see was the way members were controlled through similar tactics you describe. It's crazy as TBM's we can deconstruct every other religion as false and man made yet can't to the same with Mormonism?

How much time do you have left in the bishopric? Can you hold out then make a slow fade?

[græy]

Isn't it amazing when you start to see similar patterns emerge both inside and outside of your paradigm? One of the first universal parallels amongst all religious foundations I was surprised by was seeing how often the founder succumbs to the power, money, and sex with congregation members. Michael Shermer just talked about this on the Joe Rogan podcasts. Excellent podcast interview.

The second universal parallels I began to see was the way members were controlled through similar tactics you describe. It's crazy as TBM's we can deconstruct every other religion as false and man made yet can't to the same with Mormonism?

How much time do you have left in the bishopric? Can you hold out then make a slow fade?

Cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias are both necessary and really crappy.

I just hit the half-way mark in the bishopric. The calling came just a few months into faith transition. At the time, I was in no position, either on my own, or with family, to turn down a calling. I convinced myself that this would somehow help me make sense of things. That I could leave my shelf intact and move on. But that didn't happen. I've nuanced my way through everything so far. I never speak about Joseph Smith, ever. Testimonies are simple "I believe" statements, and nothing more. I've never assigned sacrament topics on the BoM, or the restoration. It's all on family, serving, loving, etc. Funnily (sp?) enough, I don't think anyone has noticed, at all.

I just need some time to process for a bit. But I'm slowly losing the ability to even claim the church is "good." I'm not sure where to go once that also falls apart.

edit it add: Man I am glad to have this site. You all are a god-send. Ironic, right? Seriously though, thank you.

[Red Ryder]

I just need some time to process for a bit. But I'm slowly losing the ability to even claim the church is "good." I'm not sure where to go once that also falls apart.

edit it add: Man I am glad to have this site. You all are a god-send. Ironic, right? Seriously though, thank you.

I landed on the apathetic agnostic spectrum. I don't know and I don't care. It's provided me with the ability to just shrug my shoulders and say "that's nice"! It's also made me skeptic and numb to everything and I find I have to really be self aware of my mood and mental state and manage it more then ever. As a TBM, I relied too much on convincing myself that I was doing everything right and just enduring to the end. Emotional ups and downs and good/bad things were just considered blessings and trials. It was an artificial baseline built on following the plan of salvation, covenant path, and enduring to the end.

Now I'm enjoying the little things and learning to identify why things happen and what natural systems are in place. If your interested there's a really good book called Scale by Geoffry West that's really fascinating.

One of the best side effect of becoming an apathetic agnostic is you lose interest in mormon themed podcasts and become interested in everything and anything in this big wide world! There's so much more to learn and see!

[græy]

I landed on the apathetic agnostic spectrum. I don't know and I don't care.

I'm very strongly in the agnostic camp, but really haven't decided which side of the believing line I'm on. I really like this one and may be headed there myself.

Now I'm enjoying the little things and learning to identify why things happen and what natural systems are in place. If your interested there's a really good book called Scale by Geoffry West that's really fascinating.

One of the best side effect of becoming an apathetic agnostic is you lose interest in mormon themed podcasts and become interested in everything and anything in this big wide world! There's so much more to learn and see!

I will definitely add that book to my list. While mormonism has always been the big defining point in my life, I feel like it has REALLY dominated my last three years. Mormon themed books and podcasts are all I read, all I listen to, and what I'd really like to discuss and hash out. But I look forward to the day when I don't wake up and feel the need to tease apart more the details of some random church persona or "faith-building" event. You're right, there is so much to the world, I want to gain some control back and explore the world on its own terms.

[Mormorrisey]

I landed on the apathetic agnostic spectrum. I don't know and I don't care.

I'm very strongly in the agnostic camp, but really haven't decided which side of the believing line I'm on. I really like this one and may be headed there myself.

I think this stance allows someone in your shoes to do the slow fade. Once the corporation loses its power to control what you do, and you just don't allow it to bother you through apathy, life's not that bad and you can go to church and just laugh at the stupidity. It still can be painful, and one must bite on one's tongue a fair bit, but with two hour church it means one less hour of tongue biting.

Good luck on the slow fade!

[Reuben]

To unwittingly manipulate, all you need to do is take the dials that determine the strength of regular old influence and give them a twist. It helps if you can convince yourself that you're doing it for a good cause.

To unwittingly cultivate unreasonable certainty, all you have to do is take the dials that determine the strength of regular old human biases and give them a twist. It helps if you can compartmentalize by doing this for only a few topics, because it's completely untenable otherwise.

To unwittingly make these traits hard to change, just build your life on them.

My point is that manipulation and unreasonable certainty are really a matter of degree, not kind. They use the same mechanisms that humans normally use to form groups around abstract ideas and act for a common good. The acceptable settings for those dials depends on social norms in each context. You would find them to be different in Japan in most social contexts, for example.

In Mormonism, the dials seem to be set to Feudal.

[Thoughtful]

Isn't it amazing when you start to see similar patterns emerge both inside and outside of your paradigm? One of the first universal parallels amongst all religious foundations I was surprised by was seeing how often the founder succumbs to the power, money, and sex with congregation members. Michael Shermer just talked about this on the Joe Rogan podcasts. Excellent podcast interview.

The second universal parallels I began to see was the way members were controlled through similar tactics you describe. It's crazy as TBM's we can deconstruct every other religion as false and man made yet can't to the same with Mormonism?

How much time do you have left in the bishopric? Can you hold out then make a slow fade?

Cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias are both necessary and really crappy.

I just hit the half-way mark in the bishopric. The calling came just a few months into faith transition. At the time, I was in no position, either on my own, or with family, to turn down a calling. I convinced myself that this would somehow help me make sense of things. That I could leave my shelf intact and move on. But that didn't happen. I've nuanced my way through everything so far. I never speak about Joseph Smith, ever. Testimonies are simple "I believe" statements, and nothing more. I've never assigned sacrament topics on the BoM, or the restoration. It's all on family, serving, loving, etc. Funnily (sp?) enough, I don't think anyone has noticed, at all.

I just need some time to process for a bit. But I'm slowly losing the ability to even claim the church is "good." I'm not sure where to go once that also falls apart.

edit it add: Man I am glad to have this site. You all are a god-send. Ironic, right? Seriously though, thank you.

It sounds like having you plan talks is probably helping others stay engaged. It's so much easier to come hear about service than about JS.

[slavereeno]

While mormonism has always been the big defining point in my life, I feel like it has REALLY dominated my last three years. Mormon themed books and podcasts are all I read, all I listen to, and what I'd really like to discuss and hash out. But I look forward to the day when I don't wake up and feel the need to tease apart more the details of some random church persona or "faith-building" event. You're right, there is so much to the world, I want to gain some control back and explore the world on its own terms.

I identify with this very closely, which make sense since I am approaching 2 years since the "official" shelf crash, (although I am realizing I was really stretching the belief for a while before that) so we are on a similar timeline.

I have been consumed with Mormonism for the past 2 years, I spent a lot less time on this stuff before the shelf crash. I would like to get to RR's apathetic agnostic stage, but I can't seem to get there yet.

[MalcolmVillager]

I am 6 years in to the slow fade. It is painfully slow. DW if coming along behind me now, but we both feel so trapped in the TBM MorCor community and families that we come from.

I like to tell myself that I am the apathetic agnostic that RR describes, yet I still cannot put Mormonism down. I still find further depth to the rabbit hole. I dont know if it ever ends. It is all consuming to me still. I spend 20-30 hours a week in podcasts, interwebs, and books.

This isnt healthy. That bandaid is festering and I probably just need to rip it off.

I have a stake calling. I feel a need to ask to be released. They deserve someone who believes and cares for the cause. It may be time soon. Maybe after my baby's baptism in 3 months.