Just not believing is enough

This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
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Hagoth
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Just not believing is enough

Post by Hagoth » Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:17 pm

If you're like me, after your faith crisis you were expecting to have people challenge you about your change in belief. You were constantly preparing little mental arguments in which you would lay out all of the reasons you stopped believing the things you used to believe. For most of us that never happened, or at least not to the degree we would have expected.

If it does happen you will likely find yourself in one of two situations: 1) someone who doesn't really want to discuss troublesome details, they just want you to become humble and get back in line, or 2) someone with an apologist mindset who wants to refute and debate your issues and try to make them seem misguided and ill-informed.

I have come to the conclusion that the best response to either would be to say, "Sorry, I just don't believe it." That's pretty hard to defend against.

A type 1 person will focus on the fact that you SHOULD believe it. Your response is, "but I CAN'T. No matter how hard I have tried. Do you think I should lie about it and pretend that I DO believe? I can't do that either."

A type 2 person will want to dig into specifics. For each case your response is "Sorry, I just don't believe in angels with gold plates," or "Sorry I just don't see any compelling reason to believe that Russell Nelson talks to God," or whatever. Again, why should they expect you be dishonest and act as if you do believe?

Either person could testify until they're blue in the face and you can respond with something like, "That's great. I'm happy for you. I just don't believe it for myself."

Yesterday in stake conference, as usual, I didn't sustain the 1st Presidency and apostles. Mrs. Hagoth gave me a (friendly) nudge. I said, "Jesus had twelve apostles and they've all been dead for a couple thousand years." That's all that really needed to be said.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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RubinHighlander
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Re: Just not believing is enough

Post by RubinHighlander » Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:19 pm

Amen.

When confronted with the question "So you don't even pray to God anymore?" I just responded with "I just don't feel the need, nor do I miss it, given I don't believe there's a white haired old man dabbling in my daily affairs."

You might then be confronted with "But what if it is true. Wouldn't it be better to error on the side of caution, just in case?" To which I reply that if there is a white haired old man and his son there to judge me, they should be omnipotent enough to know my mind and the sincere and difficult truth seeking journey I went on to come to the conclusion I did about the LDS faith and all others. Would such a being/God condemn me for being wrong about the decision I made in my life, given the overwhelming evidence that had cast a huge shadow of doubt on the religious BS that had been placed before me? Would I be condemned as flawed for having been on such a journey and chose to take the path of self respect, admitting I'd been duped most of my life to believing something that was not true, having enough integrity to escape it, but not at the expense of my marriage, love and devotion to my wife? I would then hope to have a long conversation with such a being/God to review just how Fd up his plan was and tell him/her/it to go to hell if no other explanation was given other than I Fd up.

The summary answer is: If there is something there to judge me in an afterlife I truly believe I would be under much more condemnation for doubting my doubts and choosing to believe than I ever would for seeking the truth and overcoming a lifetime of indoctrination by a flawed religion in order to find altruism and mental freedom.
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE

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slavereeno
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Re: Just not believing is enough

Post by slavereeno » Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:54 pm

Yes, this is a pretty good explanation of what I have been doing, preparing for that encounter, they encounters I have had, never work out well.

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Red Ryder
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Re: Just not believing is enough

Post by Red Ryder » Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:18 pm

I used to look for validation and understanding and prepared for conversations with TBM family to gain each. It never happened the way I expected. I would clearly state my reasons only to be completely misunderstood with zero validation and every conversation ended with "you just need to choose to believe".

It never occurred to me that I could just simply say "Sorry, I don't!"

Now I'm just happy I get to wear underwear of my own choosing. That alone is validating!
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

dogbite
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Re: Just not believing is enough

Post by dogbite » Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:21 pm

My favorite resposne came from rfm and went along these lines

God is going to judge you based on the choice you make about which set of unjustifiable propositions you choose?

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2bizE
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Re: Just not believing is enough

Post by 2bizE » Tue Jan 29, 2019 6:35 am

While sitting in a quorum meeting recently, one of the older guys said to the group, “Did you know that some people believe in a God that’s a Spaghetti Monster that lives in the sky. They wear collenders on their heads. Crazy, huh?”
I thought to myself, yes and we believe in a god, and his son that was magically born to a virgin, and a guy that had sex with teen girls and looked into a hat with a magic rock, and we wear magic underwear. Strange.
~2bizE

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Hagoth
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Re: Just not believing is enough

Post by Hagoth » Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:37 am

RubinHighlander wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:19 pm
You might then be confronted with "But what if it is true. Wouldn't it be better to error on the side of caution, just in case?"
What if it's true, but from the Baptist point of view? Then you would be condemned to eternal hellfire for believing in the Mormon God. It's hard to imagine a kind, loving Heavenly Father who would want you to lie and pretend you believe in things you don't just to fit other peoples' expectations.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Hagoth
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Re: Just not believing is enough

Post by Hagoth » Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:40 am

2bizE wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 6:35 am
While sitting in a quorum meeting recently, one of the older guys said to the group, “Did you know that some people believe in a God that’s a Spaghetti Monster that lives in the sky. They wear collenders on their heads. Crazy, huh?”
I would have been tempted to stand up and say, "Who are you to mock MY God?!"
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Hermey
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Re: Just not believing is enough

Post by Hermey » Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:50 am

Here is a great post on the subject of owning your disbelief and not having to justify it....

The One Reason Why You Don’t Need To Purchase Your Disbelief.

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Dravin
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Re: Just not believing is enough

Post by Dravin » Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:24 am

RubinHighlander wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:19 pm
You might then be confronted with "But what if it is true. Wouldn't it be better to error on the side of caution, just in case?"
Good old Pascal's Wager in new clothing. It's not any more valid than Pascal's Wager, but it's nice to see it still gets mileage.
Hindsight is all well and good... until you trip.

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FiveFingerMnemonic
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Re: Just not believing is enough

Post by FiveFingerMnemonic » Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:27 am

Great thread. I'm slowly letting go of the need to share things and just let my lack of participation choice do the talking. No justification needed.

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Hagoth
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Re: Just not believing is enough

Post by Hagoth » Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:44 am

Hermey wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:50 am
Here is a great post on the subject of owning your disbelief and not having to justify it....

The One Reason Why You Don’t Need To Purchase Your Disbelief.
Thanks Hermey, great article. I pulled out a couple of nuggets that I found particularly useful:
I have a friend who had a still-Christian friend and pastor dump hundreds of pages of apologetics reading on him just in case he hadn’t heard the arguments contained therein during his time in deep study of the Bible and apologetics. The implication was that if an ex-Christian didn’t read all that stuff, then he hadn’t purchased his apostasy from his friend yet. He hadn’t earned the right to leave the religion if he hadn’t “done all the research.”

My reaction at the time was a rather blunt expletive wondering whether my friend had been asked to do all that research to get into that group. No, obviously, he hadn’t had to do a lick of research to join up. Very few Christian denominations require anything more than a statement of desire or a quick dunk. Like most scams and con games, it’s incredibly easy to fall into almost every single form of Christianity there is. But now my friend was being asked to read hundreds of pages of seminary-level apologetics books to earn his right to leave without hassle. More importantly, his pastor friend was completely oblivious to how insulting and degrading this request was to a person who’d long demonstrated his knowledge and understanding of Christianity.
The only winning move to this game is not to play at all.

The one reason you don’t need to purchase your disbelief is that you are under no obligation to be the Jackass Whisperer and find that magical combination of words and deeds that will convince everybody judging you that you did or are doing the right thing.

Nobody will ever look out for you as well as you can. If you don’t step up to the plate and do it, you can’t count on anybody else to do it for you. Trust yourself to know what’s best for your life–and feel free to distrust the motivations of people wanting you to battle the ghosts in their head by demanding that you try and try and try (and fail) to purchase your life decisions from their disapproval. Some folks will only withdraw their disapproval by your full reconversion, so if you’re not willing or able to do that, then you’re never going to have enough coin (meaning: you will never do enough, read enough, or watch enough) to make that purchase.

You’re allowed to refuse even to begin playing that game.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Corsair
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Re: Just not believing is enough

Post by Corsair » Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:43 pm

Hermey wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:50 am
Here is a great post on the subject of owning your disbelief and not having to justify it....

The One Reason Why You Don’t Need To Purchase Your Disbelief.
Yes, that's a great article. The preferred tactic of believers is putting the burden of proof on you, the wavering apostate. Believers really don't enjoy trying to prove their point. They really want you to do it for them. This is commonly characterized with the "drive by" document dump. "Just read the Saints book. It will answer your questions. Oh wait, you read it and still have questions? OK, go to the temple more and fast and pray. You did that for years? Yeah, probably not hard enough. How does it feel knowing that Satan is in control of your beliefs?"

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Ghost
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Re: Just not believing is enough

Post by Ghost » Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:24 pm

I've been under the radar for so long that I don't even know how I'd handle a confrontation anymore, though I still suspect I will find myself in that situation one day.

Since it wasn't the laundry list of LDS issues that really got to me, I don't think I'd even bother bringing those up. It's possible that I'd have forgotten too many details to make a decent argument on the spot even if I wanted to.

One thing I've always tried to stay conscious of is how flippant those critical of the LDS church used to sound to me, before I'd heard enough stories to know that in many cases they'd gone through a long and painful process before reaching the point of no longer taking things seriously. I wouldn't want to come across in that way when talking to someone else, but that might be a challenge given that I'm not really agonizing over matters of faith anymore but still find those topics fun to discuss when I get a chance.

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græy
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Re: Just not believing is enough

Post by græy » Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:20 am

RubinHighlander wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:19 pm
Amen.

When confronted with the question "So you don't even pray to God anymore?" I just responded with "I just don't feel the need, nor do I miss it, given I don't believe there's a white haired old man dabbling in my daily affairs."

You might then be confronted with "But what if it is true. Wouldn't it be better to error on the side of caution, just in case?" To which I reply that if there is a white haired old man and his son there to judge me, they should be omnipotent enough to know my mind and the sincere and difficult truth seeking journey I went on to come to the conclusion I did about the LDS faith and all others. Would such a being/God condemn me for being wrong about the decision I made in my life, given the overwhelming evidence that had cast a huge shadow of doubt on the religious BS that had been placed before me? Would I be condemned as flawed for having been on such a journey and chose to take the path of self respect, admitting I'd been duped most of my life to believing something that was not true, having enough integrity to escape it, but not at the expense of my marriage, love and devotion to my wife? I would then hope to have a long conversation with such a being/God to review just how Fd up his plan was and tell him/her/it to go to hell if no other explanation was given other than I Fd up.

The summary answer is: If there is something there to judge me in an afterlife I truly believe I would be under much more condemnation for doubting my doubts and choosing to believe than I ever would for seeking the truth and overcoming a lifetime of indoctrination by a flawed religion in order to find altruism and mental freedom.
Really love this one. Well said RubinHighlander. Amen!
Well, I'm better than dirt! Ah, well... most kinds of dirt; not that fancy store-bought dirt; that stuff is loaded with nutrients. I can't compete with that stuff. -Moe Sizlack

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