Really good article: "Facts Don’t Change People’s Minds. Here’s What Does"

[jfro18]

Bill Reel posted this article on Facebook and I thought it was a really good one, and one I wish I had seen before I talked to my wife almost a year ago about church issues.

It really highlights how the mind can just shut down to facts, but if you give the mind "an out" you might have more success at getting others to change their minds and accept new info.

https://heleo.com/facts-dont-change-peo ... eres/16242

[Hagoth]

The force is strong in this article. What a different world we would live in if most people could learn to think this way.

[Red Ryder]

Here's the conflict for Mormons:

But here’s the problem. When your beliefs are entwined with your identity, changing your mind means changing your identity. That’s a really hard sell.

[wtfluff]

Here's the conflict for Mormons:

But here’s the problem. When your beliefs are entwined with your identity, changing your mind means changing your identity. That’s a really hard sell.

Yep, it's the deeply held beliefs like religion and politics where people have the hardest time "changing their mind."

This "giving the mind an out" is an interesting concept. Someone smarter than me please give me an example of how to do that with believing mormons.

[jfro18]

This "giving the mind an out" is an interesting concept. Someone smarter than me please give me an example of how to do that with believing mormons.

Yeah this is clearly the 'pouring cold water on an otherwise good concept' part with Mormonism.

Only thing that comes to mind is that when I was talking to DW about all this early on she had mentioned that she didn't know what to make of her ancestors if she were to give it up. I think I went this way at the time, but the counter would be to say that they just went with the information they had available to them, but now we know so much more to make a decision based off a more complete understanding.

I guess it's just trying to find a way to tell people "It's not your fault you believed this because you never knew about these issues" so that they don't feel like they're instead being attacked for what they do believe. As you said, with the Mormon church members are almost always going to quickly fall into that "if you attack the church you are attacking me personally" posture.

[Newme]

This "giving the mind an out" is an interesting concept. Someone smarter than me please give me an example of how to do that with believing mormons.

Yeah this is clearly the 'pouring cold water on an otherwise good concept' part with Mormonism.

Only thing that comes to mind is that when I was talking to DW about all this early on she had mentioned that she didn't know what to make of her ancestors if she were to give it up. I think I went this way at the time, but the counter would be to say that they just went with the information they had available to them, but now we know so much more to make a decision based off a more complete understanding.

I guess it's just trying to find a way to tell people "It's not your fault you believed this because you never knew about these issues" so that they don't feel like they're instead being attacked for what they do believe. As you said, with the Mormon church members are almost always going to quickly fall into that "if you attack the church you are attacking me personally" posture.

Yeah, that make sense. Maybe if I come across this again, I could show understanding by expressing how I previously believed things that I came to learn better. But I think this would only work with those who have at least some willingness to admit being mistaken.

In a way, growing up with cult-mentality is like being raised with narcissistic parents. Children of narcissistic parents tend to respond with narcissism (shifting blame etc) or neurosis (taking on too much blame). Both are dysfunctional, but neurosis offers more hope of overcoming because when one’s weaknesses can be addressed, they can be overcome - but if not, then no. So, maybe part of whether someone is open to considering their religion isn’t all that - depends on which response. I guess there’s also timing, maturity, desire for truth above discomfort & conformity etc.

I like what the article said about showing empathy - never putting someone down for believing differently than you - & the implication that we all probably may even still believe some things that are not 100% factually true, maybe because we just didn’t have all the facts, are surrounded by echo-chambers, etc.

[Reuben]

This "giving the mind an out" is an interesting concept. Someone smarter than me please give me an example of how to do that with believing mormons.

Blaming the culture instead of the doctrine or leaders is pretty common among believers. "Ah, that must have been part of the blood and sins of their generation. The church is still true." I think people like Patrick Mason use this pretty effectively to change minds. Obviously, this leaves members in their closed epistemology.

"I was lied to" is a common "out" among disaffected members. It allows them to change their beliefs without condemning themselves past or present.

(As an aside, I would love for the history of church history to be more widely known. "I was lied to" is overly simplistic and divisive.)

I don't remember needing an "out" to change my mind about something within the last few years. I wonder if not noticing them is one of their common features, though.

[Hagoth]

"I was lied to" is a common "out" among disaffected members. It allows them to change their beliefs without condemning themselves past or present.

"I was lied to" is an honest response. One step further is "I was wrong." That is the toughest place for most people to go, but once you do a whole new world opens up for you.

[wtfluff]

I don't remember needing an "out" to change my mind about something within the last few years. I wonder if not noticing them is one of their common features, though.

Quickly, off the top of my head, I think my "out" when "everything crashed" for me was cognitive dissonance. I was just tired of living mormonism the best I could, and mormonism not following through with any of it's promises. Finding out that the mormon "formula" was all made up was actually a huge relief in many ways, though it causes other types of anguish.

Like Hagoth mentions: Once one can admit they were wrong about something they based major portions of their life on, it should become easier to accept facts that don't fit their beliefs. Problem is, the human brain doesn't really function that way, so it's a constant fight, and we really need to be willing to look at all sides of things before coming to conclusions. Really: I've just traded the echo-chamber of mormonism for the echo-chamber ex-mormonism, though I really hope my attempted escape from a overly controlling fundamentalist religion taught me something about critical thinking and skepticism, and I hope I have become better at being willing to change my views based on evidence and facts.