2 faced gentiles

This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
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Kishkumen
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2 faced gentiles

Post by Kishkumen » Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:39 am

We were at the park recently talking with a few other parents. in this group, all of our kids go to the same school and most are in the same class. Someone mentioned what they thought were some polygamist children that also attend the school.

A couple mom's expressed curiosity as they didn't know how someone could tell, and others jumped in saying 'oh yeah of course we know they're polygamist'

I took the plunge and mentioned it's easy to tell they're polygamists, I should know I was raised Mormon. That spurred a quick conversation about how crazy Mormons are. Everyone in the group was rather open to my surprise.

People mention that Mormons are nice people and well-mannered, however they are batshit crazy at times. one mom mentioned that her neighbor was Mormon and had six kids and was perpetually inviting her children to join them at the Mormon church. Someone else asked how to know if some Mormons were polygamists or not. I told them the polygamists ones always wear long pants or skirts and full length sleeves on their shirts.

I said there's the regular Mormon crazy and the extra crazy Mormon. this particular mom laughed and said thanks for calling regular Mormons crazy and the polygamists ones extra crazy since it's all crazy.

What I took away is that regular people are somewhat too faced regarding Mormons. No one wants to say to their face that Mormons are nuts, but when they feel comfortable opening up, they will say that Mormons are nice people but batshit crazy and obnoxious.

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RubinHighlander
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Re: 2 faced gentiles

Post by RubinHighlander » Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:52 am

I agree. I think TBMs generally have a distorted aggrandized view of what they think others think of them; like they have a shiny halo over their heads. I was always paranoid about this as a TBM because I had non member friends and I never wanted to come across as pious, overbearing or obnoxious. But especially in Utah I think most TBMs take that for granted and therefore come across as a bit or a lot bat $hit crazy.
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Red Ryder
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Re: 2 faced gentiles

Post by Red Ryder » Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:32 pm

It's the same thing with the Amish.

Respect then ridicule!

They make great furniture!

But WTF.... No cars??
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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azflyer
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Re: 2 faced gentiles

Post by azflyer » Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:54 pm

Kish, this post in many ways is pretty upsetting to me. During my time as a TBM, I always worked hard to fit in with my neighbors. It also makes me really wonder about the people I work with. I'm definitely known around my office as 'the mormon guy'.

I'll just leave this here now. I love the ending...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsmyzC4AkFQ

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alas
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Re: 2 faced gentiles

Post by alas » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:57 pm

Yes, it is pretty funny what people will say about Mormons if they think you are not Mormon. I worked for a while at Catholic Family Services, so all my clients assumed I was also Catholic. I didn’t bother correcting that assumption because when doing counseling for depression or marital problems, the religion of any *competent* therapist doesn’t even come up. With the incompetent ones, it matters, because like all Mormons, Mormon therapists can be batshit crazy. But when my military husband got orders for Hill AFB in Utah and I was leaving the agency, my clients wanted to know why I was leaving and where we were going. When I told them Utah, every one of them reacted with horror. “Do you know what it is like living around lots of (shudder) Mormons?” I heard horror stories of pushy obnoxious neighbors, and kids being outcast in their neighborhood, of the way the church won’t stay out of politics and how you can’t get a drink. I just laughed and said I had lived in Utah before, so I knew how bad Mormons could get.

But it really opened my eyes to how the world really sees Mormons. Yes, there is respect, in fact the Catholic Father who hired me said he was picking me because of my Mormonism because Mormons had good family values and believed those married “in the church” should not divorce. Apparently there were no good Catholics available. But there is also the feeling that we are beyond just different, into weird, like the Amish....in fact we get confused with the Amish. Which is stronger, the weird or the respect? The weird for sure.

Oh, and not all polygamists wear long dresses, and long sleeves. It depends on the group. Warren Jeff’s group does, but the Kingston clan dresses like regular people in their community. Even here close to Hilldale Ut, there are some who dress just like Brighamites. You don’t know they are polygamists until you see the husband and three wives at Walmart, oh, and you very seldom see any of the husbands at Walmart. The wives do the grocery shopping, so you see three women together, or a mother with children. There are break offs from Jeff’s group who do their hair different and do not wear the pioneer style dresses, but some are long dresses and some dress just like the Brighammites, but in dark colors with their hair in buns. But yes, Jeff’s group is very recognizable as polygamists

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glass shelf
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Re: 2 faced gentiles

Post by glass shelf » Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:46 pm

I guess one of the benefits of growing up far from UT was that I always knew everyone else thought Mormons are BSC.

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Hermey
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Re: 2 faced gentiles

Post by Hermey » Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:36 pm

Kishkumen wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:39 am
What I took away is that regular people are somewhat two faced regarding Mormons. No one wants to say to their face that Mormons are nuts, but when they feel comfortable opening up, they will say that Mormons are nice people but batshit crazy and obnoxious.
This was also my experience. Once friends and co-workers people found out I no longer believed, they opened up and shared what they really thought of Mormons and Mormonism. I was truly pretty shocked (and not a lot shocks me.) I had no idea just how little they respected it and simply tolerated it instead. When I asked why they never said anything over all the years we had known each other, they said that expressing what they really felt would have hurt our relationships and was not worth doing.

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MalcolmVillager
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Re: 2 faced gentiles

Post by MalcolmVillager » Thu Feb 28, 2019 6:18 am

Hermey wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:36 pm
Kishkumen wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:39 am
What I took away is that regular people are somewhat two faced regarding Mormons. No one wants to say to their face that Mormons are nuts, but when they feel comfortable opening up, they will say that Mormons are nice people but batshit crazy and obnoxious.
This was also my experience. Once friends and co-workers people found out I no longer believed, they opened up and shared what they really thought of Mormons and Mormonism. I was truly pretty shocked (and not a lot shocks me.) I had no idea just how little they respected it and simply tolerated it instead. When I asked why they never said anything over all the years we had known each other, they said that expressing what they really felt would have hurt our relationships and was not worth doing.
Yeah, that is sad. But all you ever hear inside is that we are so well respected, the CIA recruits us, etc...

I think it probably cuts both ways. Depending on the individual, their perspective on religion in general, and the interactions they have had with mormons IRL.

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jfro18
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Re: 2 faced gentiles

Post by jfro18 » Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:49 am

When I was active I never told my coworkers I was Mormon... I never drank coffee but I did drink Coke... so I guess caffeine never came up.

And I never heard much about Mormons outside of a few jokes that were usually about polygamy, but I am in the midwest so not around a lot of Mormons nor would most other people be.

There's definitely always going to be the "opening up" element when people know you're comfortable to kind of ask and mock certain aspects of the church, but out by me at least I don't tihnk most people know much about Mormons beyond polygamy and the 'golden bible.'

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Mormorrisey
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Re: 2 faced gentiles

Post by Mormorrisey » Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:25 am

When I was beginning my faith transition, I read a great piece on this phenomenon from Rock Waterman about this:

http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2010/ ... ke-us.html

It was spot on, and the reason people don't like Mormons very much. They are Amway friends - when you buy what they're selling, they love you, and have no use for you when you don't. I haven't even left, and that's exactly how I've been treated for years, and I loved this article as it articulated why I felt about church people the way I did. It's kind of nuts, and makes one feel very glad to keep "real" friends, whether inside or outside of the church. But Rock's absolutely correct, that Mormons can be incredibly plastic and shallow, and it's the culture that feeds it. And generally, people outside of the Mormon bubble can see right through the facade.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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azflyer
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Re: 2 faced gentiles

Post by azflyer » Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:50 am

Mormorrisey wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:25 am
When I was beginning my faith transition, I read a great piece on this phenomenon from Rock Waterman about this:

http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2010/ ... ke-us.html
I would be the guy in that situation that would sit quitely and listen, and then when the guy jokingly 'hoped' that no one there was Mormon, announce that I was. I wouldn't be a jerk about it, but I'd love to watch them all squirm.

Seriously, mocking people behind their backs isn't cool. Imagine being at dinner with people that mocked Muslims, Jews, Mexicans, or Canadians, or any other group this way. It's disgusting...

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jfro18
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Re: 2 faced gentiles

Post by jfro18 » Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:02 pm

azflyer wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:50 am
Seriously, mocking people behind their backs isn't cool. Imagine being at dinner with people that mocked Muslims, Jews, Mexicans, or Canadians, or any other group this way. It's disgusting...
This is always true no matter who the "target" of the conversation is.

If someone asked me questions about Mormonism I'd tell them honestly what I think, but I would never just start ripping on them in front of others, nor would I do so about any other group because we should all strive to be better than that as difficult as it can be at times.

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slavereeno
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Re: 2 faced gentiles

Post by slavereeno » Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:34 pm

azflyer wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:50 am
Seriously, mocking people behind their backs isn't cool. Imagine being at dinner with people that mocked Muslims, Jews, Mexicans, or Canadians, or any other group this way. It's disgusting...
People in Homosexual relationships, or People that question/leave the church...

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azflyer
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Re: 2 faced gentiles

Post by azflyer » Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:09 pm

slavereeno wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:34 pm
azflyer wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:50 am
Seriously, mocking people behind their backs isn't cool. Imagine being at dinner with people that mocked Muslims, Jews, Mexicans, or Canadians, or any other group this way. It's disgusting...
People in Homosexual relationships, or People that question/leave the church...
Two more excellent examples

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MerrieMiss
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Re: 2 faced gentiles

Post by MerrieMiss » Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:17 pm

Maybe it was because I never lived in a place where being Mormon was the norm/majority, but if you wanted to fit in to the greater culture, it just made sense not to project your unwanted beliefs on others. Sure there were always those few who did, but for the most part being Mormon never came up and often people were genuinely surprised when I said I was one. I was also always careful to point out that I wasn't one of those Mormons, which usually got a laugh, because everyone knew which Mormons I was talking about.

It may also be a result of having a convert parent and extended family who were not mormon - from an early age I was taught not to be a jackass about people's belief systems (not that my parents would have ever used that word). This made me a lousy member missionary. Most people genuinely believe that their own belief systems are right and they are also genuinely happy - early shelf item. :)
The true opposite of order is not disorder but freedom. Most profoundly, the true opposite of control is not chaos but self-control. -Jay Griffiths

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Mormorrisey
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Re: 2 faced gentiles

Post by Mormorrisey » Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:24 pm

azflyer wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:50 am

I would be the guy in that situation that would sit quitely and listen, and then when the guy jokingly 'hoped' that no one there was Mormon, announce that I was. I wouldn't be a jerk about it, but I'd love to watch them all squirm.

Seriously, mocking people behind their backs isn't cool. Imagine being at dinner with people that mocked Muslims, Jews, Mexicans, or Canadians, or any other group this way. It's disgusting...
I'll always remember sitting with my friends at another friends' house, and the Mom started talking about another kid in my ward, and said conspiratorally, "he's a MORMON you know." We all laughed, and it dawned on her that her precious son was also friend with ONE OF THEM. One of the highlights of my teenage years.

You're right of course, it's bad form to sit around and badmouth other creeds, cultures and sexualities. But I think Rock's point is that people do notice the peculiarities of Mormon culture, and are not big fans. I don't live in an area that have a lot of Mormons, but when people find out I was one, there is a pregnant pause - in academic circles, I suspect that the pregnant pause was due to the church's more conservative views, views of LGBTQ persons and gender issues.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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moksha
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Re: 2 faced gentiles

Post by moksha » Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:24 pm

I wonder if the tendency to look down on other people is just an unfortunate part of human nature?
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

Reuben
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Re: 2 faced gentiles

Post by Reuben » Thu Feb 28, 2019 6:24 pm

moksha wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:24 pm
I wonder if the tendency to look down on other people is just an unfortunate part of human nature?
I think we tend to do it when we feel threatened. Thinking of outsiders as less than we are makes us feel safer. "Look how small they are from way up here! Like little ants I could crush with my fingers if I wanted to."
You were born to trust, not fear. It is your birthright.

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Not Buying It
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Re: 2 faced gentiles

Post by Not Buying It » Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:34 am

Just recently a friend at work said she was surprised when she found out I was Mormon. She said she told another co-worker I was Mormon, and he was surprised too.

I couldn't have been more pleased. What I took away was this: "we didn't think you'd be Mormon - you seem so normal!"

Remember how Elder Bednar was all over using social media as a missionary tool? Nope - it has made the rest of the world think Mormons are even weirder than they did before. Every time some member gushes about how blessed they were to see the Prophet, the rest of the world goes "Cukoo! Cukoo!". Every time some member posts something about how reading the Book of Mormon has blessed their lives, they think the same thing we think when a Scientologists waxes eloquent about Dianetics. I got called out on Facebook once for defending the LGBT community by a ward member who wanted to know how I could do that when I am a "Melchizedek priesthood holder and endowed member" - and to the rest of the world it made about as much sense as "I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor." Facebook demonstrates how many members are unaware of how bizarre they look to the rest of the world.

Thanks,fellow Mormons, for using social media to make the rest of us look like weirdo freaks.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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wtfluff
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Re: 2 faced gentiles

Post by wtfluff » Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:34 pm

This is one of the reasons why I don't see the Board of Directors of LDS-Inc. making changes to things such as the Word of Wisdom. They want to "Keep Mormonism Weird." (That "peculiar people" saying, blah blah blah.) The whole "Every member a missionary" thing doesn't help either, as many believer think the have to push their weirdness on people who don't buy in to the mormon version of weirdness. Calling out other folks for drinking "unhealthy" coffee, while drinking massive amounts of caffeinated sodas and energy drinks is hilarious when applying Occam's Razor. (Or just normal old rational thinking.)

I don't think non-mormons spend much time wandering around mocking or judging mormons. And not telling weird people that they are weird to their face is just the socially polite thing to do.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

Brilliant.

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