Divorce Advice?

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Deepthinker
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Divorce Advice?

Post by Deepthinker » Sun Mar 03, 2019 11:20 am

Yes, I am planning to talk to an attorney tomorrow. I know they can give me the good legal advice I need.

I just wanted to know for those of you who have been through a divorce or if you just know enough about it for things to do and not do, any advice is appreciated.

DW and I might still be able to work things out, but after some of our discussion today, I'm thinking divorce might be in my future.

Edit: Just to update a bit. DW has refused marriage counseling, says she feels like I want her to change and she just can't.

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Just This Guy
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Re: Divorce Advice?

Post by Just This Guy » Sun Mar 03, 2019 2:20 pm

I don't have any advice for you, but I will wish you well and that you are able to find happiness.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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AllieOop
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Re: Divorce Advice?

Post by AllieOop » Sun Mar 03, 2019 3:11 pm

Deepthinker wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 11:20 am
Yes, I am planning to talk to an attorney tomorrow. I know they can give me the good legal advice I need.

I just wanted to know for those of you who have been through a divorce or if you just know enough about it for things to do and not do, any advice is appreciated.

DW and I might still be able to work things out, but after some of our discussion today, I'm thinking divorce might be in my future.

Edit: Just to update a bit. DW has refused marriage counseling, says she feels like I want her to change and she just can't.
I'm so sorry you're going through this and I do hope you can still work things out....my heart goes out to you and your entire family.

I have been through a divorce and I have lots of advice, but on different aspects at different times or stages.

I'll preface this with "if you have kids" and if not, apply it to other members of your's and your wife's family:

For now, try as hard as you can to never say anything negative about your wife to your kids (or other family members....most don't want to hear about it and don't want to be in the middle). This can be a tough one to do, but remember she is their Mother (sister, sister-in-law, friend) and they do not want to hear you talk bad about her. Keep anything negative between you and your wife and focus on only positive and loving things on your kids. This will be a rough time for them if you end up separating.

Also, do not ever do anything that will hurt your kids in order to hurt your wife. I know that sounds simple, but it's tempting to use them in ways that will hurt your wife (since that's where she's vulnerable). But, everything you do should be prefaced with asking yourself, "will this hurt the kids?" or "will this cause my kids just more pain?". Don't put them in the middle anymore than they are already going to be.

I do hope you can work it out to stay together....I'll be thinking about you! Keep us updated as many here care about you.
"There came a time when the desire to know the truth about the church became stronger than the desire to know the church was true."

dogbite
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Re: Divorce Advice?

Post by dogbite » Sun Mar 03, 2019 3:42 pm

A few things I've seen.

Debt management. No matter what the divorce decree says, it always falls apart on debt. Especially early on. Because the loans likely have both signatures on them, they'll pursue whoever signed, decree be damned. Close every joint account you have. Take out new individual loans to pay off existing joint loans as you both negotiate with your lawyers. Close every service account and have new ones opened in the individual name who will be on that service going forward. It may well be that you or your wife will not qualify for new loans on your own to do all this. Kill as much debt as you can as it will come back to bite you.

Change every lock you've ever shared in common. Doors, cars, garage openers, bikes.... Change every key you've ever shared. Every password. Every security phrase. Start making your list of this now.

Get off of Social Media. Do not send texts, emails, or anything written to anyone about your situation or your spouse. Only talk in person or on the phone. You need to stop leaving anything that can be used later. Delete what you can, though talk with your lawyer as you don't want an obstruction of justice or evidence tampering charge.

Expect bankruptcy. Maybe just your ex spouse's, but it happens a lot.

Do not badmouth your spouse to anyone if you can. It causes more problems than it solves. Do not fuss over what becomes of their new living situation for better or worse. You need to let go of their life as much as you can. Do not become their repair man. Make sure she has a list of numbers for who to call to solve these problems.

Always be polite. You need to cut off all emotional attack paths you can. Most of the time when you get hauled back in front of the judge over some disputed issue it has an emotional revenge core rather than an actual issue. Do not feed their beast.

Items of emotional value. For me, I'd pretty much let them win these battles as I don't have an emotional attachment that way. keep a list though and the value for assigning even split evaluation in dollars later on.

Restraining orders are real. Pay attention to them and follow them. If you are into guns, know that you can be made into a criminal without your knowledge depending on the kind or restraining order issued. You might be best served to have your attorney hold your guns until the divorce is final.

If you're paying alimony, have it set up as garnishment so you never have to argue over whether she got paid or when. The records are all there and you can't not have paid. Reduces return court appearances.

Same for insurance, if everyone was insured through your work. You'll likely have to continue to cover her and the kids, but spell out a system that will work as jobs change, both hers and yours as she may have the better options at some point. Figure out how this will play out now so you can keep a judge and attorney out of it later. If you become self employed and the decree says you're providing insurance, provide it.

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moksha
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Re: Divorce Advice?

Post by moksha » Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:55 pm

Tell your wife that counseling will make everything easier whether you stay together or not. An amicable ending is always better than an acrimonious one.

BTW, what change does your wife believe a counselor would ask of her?
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

Wonderment
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Re: Divorce Advice?

Post by Wonderment » Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:10 pm

The goal of counseling is not to force anyone to change, but to facilitate understanding and communication between both people.

If your wife will not attend counseling, then attend by yourself. With a good counselor, you will be amazed at how much perspective and enlightenment you can gain about your life and the situation you're in. It is extremely helpful, whether or not the spouse chooses to attend.

Best wishes, and please let us know how you're doing. -- Wndr.

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Mormorrisey
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Re: Divorce Advice?

Post by Mormorrisey » Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:08 am

Wonderment wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:10 pm
The goal of counseling is not to force anyone to change, but to facilitate understanding and communication between both people.

If your wife will not attend counseling, then attend by yourself. With a good counselor, you will be amazed at how much perspective and enlightenment you can gain about your life and the situation you're in. It is extremely helpful, whether or not the spouse chooses to attend.

Best wishes, and please let us know how you're doing. -- Wndr.
Yeah, this. Sorry you're going through this, but that's a bit of a red flag, no? Counselling, good counselling is about communication and empathy, and no one should be afraid of it.

As to a potential divorce there's some good advice in the previous posts, I wish you well in navigating these waters.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

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Deepthinker
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Re: Divorce Advice?

Post by Deepthinker » Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:17 am

AllieOop wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 3:11 pm
Deepthinker wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 11:20 am
Yes, I am planning to talk to an attorney tomorrow. I know they can give me the good legal advice I need.

I just wanted to know for those of you who have been through a divorce or if you just know enough about it for things to do and not do, any advice is appreciated.

DW and I might still be able to work things out, but after some of our discussion today, I'm thinking divorce might be in my future.

Edit: Just to update a bit. DW has refused marriage counseling, says she feels like I want her to change and she just can't.
I'm so sorry you're going through this and I do hope you can still work things out....my heart goes out to you and your entire family.

I have been through a divorce and I have lots of advice, but on different aspects at different times or stages.

I'll preface this with "if you have kids" and if not, apply it to other members of your's and your wife's family:

For now, try as hard as you can to never say anything negative about your wife to your kids (or other family members....most don't want to hear about it and don't want to be in the middle). This can be a tough one to do, but remember she is their Mother (sister, sister-in-law, friend) and they do not want to hear you talk bad about her. Keep anything negative between you and your wife and focus on only positive and loving things on your kids. This will be a rough time for them if you end up separating.

Also, do not ever do anything that will hurt your kids in order to hurt your wife. I know that sounds simple, but it's tempting to use them in ways that will hurt your wife (since that's where she's vulnerable). But, everything you do should be prefaced with asking yourself, "will this hurt the kids?" or "will this cause my kids just more pain?". Don't put them in the middle anymore than they are already going to be.

I do hope you can work it out to stay together....I'll be thinking about you! Keep us updated as many here care about you.
Thank you so much! Yes, kids would be involved, 5 kids. Three of them are 18 or older, though, two moved out.

This is very good advice. DW and I did talk more last night and it sounds like she is going through a grieving process as I've stepped further away from the church. I'm hoping she can work through that and we stay together.

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Deepthinker
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Re: Divorce Advice?

Post by Deepthinker » Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:18 am

dogbite wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 3:42 pm
A few things I've seen.

Debt management. No matter what the divorce decree says, it always falls apart on debt. Especially early on. Because the loans likely have both signatures on them, they'll pursue whoever signed, decree be damned. Close every joint account you have. Take out new individual loans to pay off existing joint loans as you both negotiate with your lawyers. Close every service account and have new ones opened in the individual name who will be on that service going forward. It may well be that you or your wife will not qualify for new loans on your own to do all this. Kill as much debt as you can as it will come back to bite you.

Change every lock you've ever shared in common. Doors, cars, garage openers, bikes.... Change every key you've ever shared. Every password. Every security phrase. Start making your list of this now.

Get off of Social Media. Do not send texts, emails, or anything written to anyone about your situation or your spouse. Only talk in person or on the phone. You need to stop leaving anything that can be used later. Delete what you can, though talk with your lawyer as you don't want an obstruction of justice or evidence tampering charge.

Expect bankruptcy. Maybe just your ex spouse's, but it happens a lot.

Do not badmouth your spouse to anyone if you can. It causes more problems than it solves. Do not fuss over what becomes of their new living situation for better or worse. You need to let go of their life as much as you can. Do not become their repair man. Make sure she has a list of numbers for who to call to solve these problems.

Always be polite. You need to cut off all emotional attack paths you can. Most of the time when you get hauled back in front of the judge over some disputed issue it has an emotional revenge core rather than an actual issue. Do not feed their beast.

Items of emotional value. For me, I'd pretty much let them win these battles as I don't have an emotional attachment that way. keep a list though and the value for assigning even split evaluation in dollars later on.

Restraining orders are real. Pay attention to them and follow them. If you are into guns, know that you can be made into a criminal without your knowledge depending on the kind or restraining order issued. You might be best served to have your attorney hold your guns until the divorce is final.

If you're paying alimony, have it set up as garnishment so you never have to argue over whether she got paid or when. The records are all there and you can't not have paid. Reduces return court appearances.

Same for insurance, if everyone was insured through your work. You'll likely have to continue to cover her and the kids, but spell out a system that will work as jobs change, both hers and yours as she may have the better options at some point. Figure out how this will play out now so you can keep a judge and attorney out of it later. If you become self employed and the decree says you're providing insurance, provide it.
Wow! Thank you so much for this! This is so great, I appreciate it.

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Deepthinker
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Re: Divorce Advice?

Post by Deepthinker » Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:19 am

Yes, I will continue to see if she will go to counseling, and if not at least me going alone.

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alas
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Re: Divorce Advice?

Post by alas » Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:02 am

Wonderment wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:10 pm
The goal of counseling is not to force anyone to change, but to facilitate understanding and communication between both people.

If your wife will not attend counseling, then attend by yourself. With a good counselor, you will be amazed at how much perspective and enlightenment you can gain about your life and the situation you're in. It is extremely helpful, whether or not the spouse chooses to attend.

Best wishes, and please let us know how you're doing. -- Wndr.
Many people fear counseling because they have this false idea that counselors “psychoanalize” you, taking little things you do and knowing all kinds of stuff about your childhood. It is some mysterious process that the psychologist can use to control you. Or they are afraid the counselor will see all kinds of faults, that they will see the person as crazy. That only people who are crazy, weak, or obnoxious need counseling and that certainly isn’t them. Needing counseling means something is wrong with you.

Well, the counseling process isn’t mysterious at all, and it doesn’t mean something is wrong with you. It doesn’t control you or change you. It is just kinda hard to sum up in one sentence what it really does, because it does so many things, but it is ALWAYS under the clients control, because we just don’t have magic pills that we can give people to change them. The counselor may somewhat control what happens in the office, but they have zero control of your life outside the office, which is why you really are totally in control of any changes you want to make.

Let me sum up counseling in a short paragraph. You go in to the counselor’s office and talk. The counselor hears you say something that doesn’t make sense and makes you clarify it. Or you say something that doesn’t follow logically. The counselor will help you see other ways of looking at it. So, counseling clarifies your thinking and helps you see where you are making assumptions that may be false. In marriage counseling, they often teach you better communication skills. They help you remember the things you love about each other. Right now you and your spouse are in a negative spiral heading to divorce. The job of marriage counseling is to figure out the negative feedback you are giving each other, and find ways to see each other more positively. Your wife probably has negative assumptions about what your leaving the church means, and you probably have negative assumptions about what her remaining in the church means. If you can both correct the negative assumptions, you can save the marriage.

So, my divorce advice is back up. Do you really want to go there? If not it is time to have a serious reality talk with the spouse and ask them if they really want to go there. Sometimes this wake up talk about “we are heading to divorce, do you really want to go there?” will convince the spouse that maybe marriage counseling will help and get them pat their fears.

Now my guess is that she is afraid that the counselor will talk her out of being Mormon. Any half decent counselor will not. It is considered unethical to try to “talk her out of being Mormon”. Speaking as a counselor here, It is stressed in our professional training that we do not try to change the clients values or religion, even if we think they are “wrong” or hurting the client. That is the client’s choice. So, the counselor’s job is to help her examine, not her Mormonism, but how she is using her Mormonism as a club to beat you up with. Likewise, help you see how you are using your faith crisis as a club to tell her she is stupid to keep believing.

I want to repeat, that if she still refuses to go to counseling, find someone you can work with for individual counseling. It can still help with how you are contributing to the problems and help you see if you really want to divorce and help you through what ever happens.

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RubinHighlander
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Re: Divorce Advice?

Post by RubinHighlander » Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:22 am

My divorce was based on a cheating spouse, who I took back twice before under the obligation of keeping the eternal marriage together. The 3rd time she cheated she actually filed because she wanted out of the church and figured they X her this time. Based on that bitter situation here are some things I wish I had known based on my divorce about 13 years ago:

- It can get really expensive in legal fees really fast and there's not much return on investment
- Courts won't fix or punish the cheating spouse, there's no really justice there, they are about seeing to the needs of the kids
- Courts in Utah generally side with the mother, if you've been married a while there's likely to be alimony to pay if there's a big difference in income. You can try to make your arguments to pay the least amount possible, but there's not much wiggle room.
- I managed to get joint custody at first but she took me back to court after she got a live-in bo, she knew she'd loose the alimony so she got more child support to make up for it.

Look at the finances, don't spend too much on legal fees to get it sorted out, use the child support calc tables on the state website to see where you land financially. Realize this can be very hard on you financially. Don't give up more than you have to, but don't fight this emotionally, be as realistic as you can.
Last edited by RubinHighlander on Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Wonderment
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Re: Divorce Advice?

Post by Wonderment » Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:37 pm

Now my guess is that she is afraid that the counselor will talk her out of being Mormon. Any half decent counselor will not. It is considered unethical to try to “talk her out of being Mormon”. Speaking as a counselor here, It is stressed in our professional training that we do not try to change the clients values or religion, even if we think they are “wrong” or hurting the client. That is the client’s choice. So, the counselor’s job is to help her examine, not her Mormonism, but how she is using her Mormonism as a club to beat you up with. Likewise, help you see how you are using your faith crisis as a club to tell her she is stupid to keep believing.
Thanks, Alas - very articulate. I completely agree with your explanation of the purpose of counseling. :) - Wndr.

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Raylan Givens
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Re: Divorce Advice?

Post by Raylan Givens » Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:45 pm

dogbite wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 3:42 pm
A few things I've seen.

Debt management. No matter what the divorce decree says, it always falls apart on debt. Especially early on. Because the loans likely have both signatures on them, they'll pursue whoever signed, decree be damned. Close every joint account you have. Take out new individual loans to pay off existing joint loans as you both negotiate with your lawyers. Close every service account and have new ones opened in the individual name who will be on that service going forward. It may well be that you or your wife will not qualify for new loans on your own to do all this. Kill as much debt as you can as it will come back to bite you.

Change every lock you've ever shared in common. Doors, cars, garage openers, bikes.... Change every key you've ever shared. Every password. Every security phrase. Start making your list of this now.

Get off of Social Media. Do not send texts, emails, or anything written to anyone about your situation or your spouse. Only talk in person or on the phone. You need to stop leaving anything that can be used later. Delete what you can, though talk with your lawyer as you don't want an obstruction of justice or evidence tampering charge.

Expect bankruptcy. Maybe just your ex spouse's, but it happens a lot.

Do not badmouth your spouse to anyone if you can. It causes more problems than it solves. Do not fuss over what becomes of their new living situation for better or worse. You need to let go of their life as much as you can. Do not become their repair man. Make sure she has a list of numbers for who to call to solve these problems.

Always be polite. You need to cut off all emotional attack paths you can. Most of the time when you get hauled back in front of the judge over some disputed issue it has an emotional revenge core rather than an actual issue. Do not feed their beast.

Items of emotional value. For me, I'd pretty much let them win these battles as I don't have an emotional attachment that way. keep a list though and the value for assigning even split evaluation in dollars later on.

Restraining orders are real. Pay attention to them and follow them. If you are into guns, know that you can be made into a criminal without your knowledge depending on the kind or restraining order issued. You might be best served to have your attorney hold your guns until the divorce is final.

If you're paying alimony, have it set up as garnishment so you never have to argue over whether she got paid or when. The records are all there and you can't not have paid. Reduces return court appearances.

Same for insurance, if everyone was insured through your work. You'll likely have to continue to cover her and the kids, but spell out a system that will work as jobs change, both hers and yours as she may have the better options at some point. Figure out how this will play out now so you can keep a judge and attorney out of it later. If you become self employed and the decree says you're providing insurance, provide it.
Very thorough
"Ah, you know, I think you use the Bible to do whatever the hell you like" - Raylan Givens

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Deepthinker
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Re: Divorce Advice?

Post by Deepthinker » Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:30 pm

alas wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:02 am
Wonderment wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:10 pm
The goal of counseling is not to force anyone to change, but to facilitate understanding and communication between both people.

If your wife will not attend counseling, then attend by yourself. With a good counselor, you will be amazed at how much perspective and enlightenment you can gain about your life and the situation you're in. It is extremely helpful, whether or not the spouse chooses to attend.

Best wishes, and please let us know how you're doing. -- Wndr.
Many people fear counseling because they have this false idea that counselors “psychoanalize” you, taking little things you do and knowing all kinds of stuff about your childhood. It is some mysterious process that the psychologist can use to control you. Or they are afraid the counselor will see all kinds of faults, that they will see the person as crazy. That only people who are crazy, weak, or obnoxious need counseling and that certainly isn’t them. Needing counseling means something is wrong with you.

Well, the counseling process isn’t mysterious at all, and it doesn’t mean something is wrong with you. It doesn’t control you or change you. It is just kinda hard to sum up in one sentence what it really does, because it does so many things, but it is ALWAYS under the clients control, because we just don’t have magic pills that we can give people to change them. The counselor may somewhat control what happens in the office, but they have zero control of your life outside the office, which is why you really are totally in control of any changes you want to make.

Let me sum up counseling in a short paragraph. You go in to the counselor’s office and talk. The counselor hears you say something that doesn’t make sense and makes you clarify it. Or you say something that doesn’t follow logically. The counselor will help you see other ways of looking at it. So, counseling clarifies your thinking and helps you see where you are making assumptions that may be false. In marriage counseling, they often teach you better communication skills. They help you remember the things you love about each other. Right now you and your spouse are in a negative spiral heading to divorce. The job of marriage counseling is to figure out the negative feedback you are giving each other, and find ways to see each other more positively. Your wife probably has negative assumptions about what your leaving the church means, and you probably have negative assumptions about what her remaining in the church means. If you can both correct the negative assumptions, you can save the marriage.

So, my divorce advice is back up. Do you really want to go there? If not it is time to have a serious reality talk with the spouse and ask them if they really want to go there. Sometimes this wake up talk about “we are heading to divorce, do you really want to go there?” will convince the spouse that maybe marriage counseling will help and get them pat their fears.

Now my guess is that she is afraid that the counselor will talk her out of being Mormon. Any half decent counselor will not. It is considered unethical to try to “talk her out of being Mormon”. Speaking as a counselor here, It is stressed in our professional training that we do not try to change the clients values or religion, even if we think they are “wrong” or hurting the client. That is the client’s choice. So, the counselor’s job is to help her examine, not her Mormonism, but how she is using her Mormonism as a club to beat you up with. Likewise, help you see how you are using your faith crisis as a club to tell her she is stupid to keep believing.

I want to repeat, that if she still refuses to go to counseling, find someone you can work with for individual counseling. It can still help with how you are contributing to the problems and help you see if you really want to divorce and help you through what ever happens.
This is excellent alas! Thank you! I used some of what you said to explain what counseling means to DW. She is worried about those very things when it comes to counseling.

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Deepthinker
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Re: Divorce Advice?

Post by Deepthinker » Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:32 pm

Just an update. Things have settled down some, we've had more calm discussions and we're trying.

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jfro18
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Re: Divorce Advice?

Post by jfro18 » Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:01 pm

Deepthinker wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:32 pm
Just an update. Things have settled down some, we've had more calm discussions and we're trying.
That's great news, and sounds promising!

Sometimes we have to hit rock bottom before we can find some firmer footing, so I hope that's the case for you.

Great news and keep us posted as time goes on... hopefully it's onward and upward from here! :D

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Mormorrisey
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Re: Divorce Advice?

Post by Mormorrisey » Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:10 pm

Deepthinker wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:32 pm
Just an update. Things have settled down some, we've had more calm discussions and we're trying.
Great news! Good luck navigating these conversations.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

dogbite
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Re: Divorce Advice?

Post by dogbite » Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:19 pm

glad to hear it.

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MalcolmVillager
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Re: Divorce Advice?

Post by MalcolmVillager » Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:25 pm

Deepthinker wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:32 pm
Just an update. Things have settled down some, we've had more calm discussions and we're trying.
This makes me happy. I wish you both peace through all of it.

I have no advice about divorce since I have not had to deal with that. I have seen friends go through it and it was better for one or both of them. Sadly the kids deal with a mess either way (stay or divorce).

One thing I will say that I have observed from a distance. Divorce does not remove the ex from your life, and sometimes dealing with them as an ex can be worse than as a partner. Also, the problems dont just go away with the divorce, you just trade them for new ones. Finances are always hit for both parties (but two attorneys make out like bandits), and life isnt always better.

I hope you are both getting the support you need. Communication is key. Good luck!

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