If the church were to admit and apologize...

This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.

If the church admitted and apologized for faults, (select up to 3)

My beliefs in the church would be restored, I would finally be able to forgive their dishonesty.
0
No votes
My beliefs would be partially restored. Forgiven, but not forgotten.
1
3%
My beliefs would not be restored, but I would have a much greater respect for the church.
27
87%
My beliefs would be crushed through the admission of guilt, I would be angry - too late, too little.
3
10%
 
Total votes: 31

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Angel
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If the church were to admit and apologize...

Post by Angel » Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:02 am

I was thinking about forgiveness, and the repentance process. I recently suggested to our stake president that the church is not perfect and should go through the repentance process just as its members are asked to.

... the church is kind of like a marriage - if there is dishonesty etc., if everyone comes clean, apologizes, etc. that can be the first step towards forgiveness and reconciliation. Hey - we are all imperfect, we can forgive and get on with life, but honesty is needed as a first step.

...if in the church, or in a marriage - when there is dishonesty etc., if the offending party covers it up, continues to deny, hide, lie etc... not really seeing that relationship going anywhere.

What do you think, how far would a simple apology go?
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

larecherche
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Re: If the church were to admit and apologize...

Post by larecherche » Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:31 am

If the church were to rewrite their narratives, apologize for damage done, and be a much more open and forgiving organization it would go a long way towards earning respect.

I think it would probably end up being a church that was inspired by Joseph Smith instead of a church that was literally revealed to Joseph Smith. He'd largely fade into the background, and the focus would be on the Christian parts of our faith instead of the parts that make us different.

I think that I could happily be a part of a church like that, especially if they are good at building community and making the members' lives better.

dogbite
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Re: If the church were to admit and apologize...

Post by dogbite » Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:45 am

it wouldnt change anything for me.

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glass shelf
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Re: If the church were to admit and apologize...

Post by glass shelf » Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:59 am

dogbite wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:45 am
it wouldnt change anything for me.
Me neither. It's too little too late.

That ship has sailed.

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Not Buying It
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Re: If the church were to admit and apologize...

Post by Not Buying It » Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:26 am

glass shelf wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:59 am
dogbite wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:45 am
it wouldnt change anything for me.
Me neither. It's too little too late.

That ship has sailed.
Yep. I mean, I'd respect them somewhat more if they did as long as the apology was accompanied with some much needed changes, but it wouldn't impact the status of my belief.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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Corsair
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Re: If the church were to admit and apologize...

Post by Corsair » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:15 am

Let's also note that "apology" has a rather wide spectrum. We have had Uchtodorf do a "mistakes were made, but not really by us" talk. I remember hearing that talk and I really enjoyed it, but it felt thoroughly like "too little, too late". As usual, no specific activity was admitted which is a trait continuing today with the last few months of Corbridge, Rasband, Eyring, and Pearson giving talks about belief and dealing with questions.

When we, as disaffected members think "apology", we are looking for the standard steps of repentance that we learned in Primary
  1. Recognize that you made a mistake
  2. Stop doing that thing
  3. Acknowledge that you caused harm
  4. Request forgiveness
  5. Don't do it again
We are getting tiny parts of each of these things mainly by not doing some of those things again. Polygamy is no longer practiced, but just try to jump through the hoops for a second marriage sealing. Missionaries can call home, but this does not admit the emotional pain of thousands of missionaries who were emotionally cut off from family despite having telephones invented. Unbelieving parents separated from weddings is an ongoing problem and the church continues to assume that if you really wanted to attend your daughter's wedding then you could if you were not some lazy, disobedient apostate. Or even just a non-member.

My answer of "I would have a much greater respect for the church" is heavily dependent on the content of that apology. I have no faith that this will ever occur.

dogbite
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Re: If the church were to admit and apologize...

Post by dogbite » Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:41 pm

there used to be a step about recompense where possible.

Refunding my tithing and mssion expenses would be a good start. They can keep the fast offerings. I'd feel a lot better toward the church if they did that.

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jfro18
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Re: If the church were to admit and apologize...

Post by jfro18 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:46 pm

The problem is that if the church apologized and admitted that their history is a lie, what is the point?

It's like when Lance Armstrong finally admitted he doped all those years... he would have never admitted it if the evidence didn't force him to, so why should I respect him more for it?

Maybe if a leader had gotten up over the last 50 years and said "We have now put together all of our historical documents and I'm sorry to say that Joseph Smith wasn't exactly who we have been taught." Maybe then I'd respect them, because it would've at least been before the evidence was so easily accessible by everyone with a computer.

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Dravin
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Re: If the church were to admit and apologize...

Post by Dravin » Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:20 pm

I think the only thing the church could do that would increase my respect of it greatly would require it to change itself into an organization that is completely divorced from what it currently is and I don't think that'll ever happen. Sure, it could apologize for it's behavior concerning it's past but it'd be like a convicted wife beater admitting he shouldn't have broken his wife's jaw when appealing for leniency. I mean sure, I respect him more than if he maintained she had it coming but I wouldn't say I now respect the guy.
Hindsight is all well and good... until you trip.

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crazyhamster
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Re: If the church were to admit and apologize...

Post by crazyhamster » Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:03 pm

I picked the third option, though I still wouldn't respect it all that much more. I don't see how it could restore my belief - their admission of lies would indicate that was in fact not believable.

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Red Ryder
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Re: If the church were to admit and apologize...

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:25 pm

None of the above.

I need all tithing refunded plus compensatory damages for emotional pain and suffering.

But how do you value the cost of enslavement in polygamy panties and the loss of visual intimacy with a spouse for 20+ years?

150 Million and I might consider the church in a respective way.

Did I mention I hate garments?
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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wtfluff
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Re: If the church were to admit and apologize...

Post by wtfluff » Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:33 pm

Angel wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:02 am
What do you think, how far would a simple apology go?
A "simple apology?" I don't think a simple apology would go far at all. It needs to be a very complex, very in-depth apology.

And beyond that, any kind of apology won't mean anything without some restitution for what they've done. They've been lying to their followers for close to 200 years. It would take a while to make up for that, and even then, would trust actually be restored?

Even then, I don't know how much of my respect could be won back. I'm pretty sure I'll be dead before I'll respect "the church" again, so... Definitely still in this camp:
dogbite wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:45 am
it wouldnt change anything for me.

Oh, and a tithing refund like RR mentions would be peachy!



(I voted for the last option, even though my "beliefs" wouldn't be crushed, but the too little, too late statement definitely fits.)
Last edited by wtfluff on Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

Brilliant.

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jfro18
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Re: If the church were to admit and apologize...

Post by jfro18 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:34 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:25 pm
Did I mention I hate garments?
Garments are the worst thing ever. They should make the teenagers wear garments so they are immediately less attracted to each other, and then once you get married you can stop wearing the Joseph Smith version of a chastity belt.

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slk
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Re: If the church were to admit and apologize...

Post by slk » Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:11 pm

I've often thought about TSCC coming clean but they never will. Too much damage already done. Who's going to admit to or even apologize to "hey, we were wrong about excluding you from seeing your son/daughter get married." Or "hey, sorry we didn't counsel you and your ex-spouse to stay together despite your mixed-faith marriage or your spouse questioning our history." Or what about the blacks and the Priesthood or the # of LGBTQ suicides because these kids were never good enough? Nope, we will never see an apology. These geezers have way too much pride for that to tell you they were wrong. But...maybe once they're gone, maybe...you might see more apologies.

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RubinHighlander
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Re: If the church were to admit and apologize...

Post by RubinHighlander » Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:17 am

Sorry I can't participate. My beliefs were crushed a couple of years ago, they will never be restored. I think TSCC has already admitted guilt in many ways, but they actually make it worse with appologetics and gas lighting. If they came all the way clean they lose all their truth claims and magical powers so they are just another non-prophet corporation. I might gain a little respect for current leadership if they completely dissolved that corporation, sold off their assets, gave the proceeds to worthy charities and went out to make honest livings like the rest of us.
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
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Hagoth
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Re: If the church were to admit and apologize...

Post by Hagoth » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:40 pm

I think you left out one option:

If the church were to admit and apologize...

□ Hell would freeze over.

I might reconsider if they followed one small piece of advice: " go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me."
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Raylan Givens
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Re: If the church were to admit and apologize...

Post by Raylan Givens » Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:11 pm

Never happen. But I don't expect churches to apologize. Same reason I don't expect them to "open the books" to us and give it to us straight. Whether it is Mormon or Islam, you give it straight and it will only rock the boat. The dues paying members want a nice smooth ride.
"Ah, you know, I think you use the Bible to do whatever the hell you like" - Raylan Givens

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Angel
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Re: If the church were to admit and apologize...

Post by Angel » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:34 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:33 pm
Angel wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:02 am
What do you think, how far would a simple apology go?
...It would take a while to make up for that, and even then, would trust actually be restored?
What if they did not ask for your trust - but instead used their faults to promote individual agency and beliefs?

I'm on the fence because of family (mixed faith). If I go back - and that is a big if - I will not be going back with any faith or trust in any church leadership. From Jonah to Judas - what do the scriptures teach about leaders? Don't trust them. For the small things they might be of some small help - but the reality is, we are all on our own with only our own two feet to stand on. We are not supposed to trust in any arms of flesh. We are not supposed to believe anything any person tells us - that we only believe what the spirit testifies to us.

Everyone is imperfect. If we were to shut out all imperfect people, there would be no community, no families, no friends... so the whole thing is just one big lesson in forgiving but not forgetting, putting up appropriate boundaries, taking consideration of the ideas of others but taking ownership of our own testimony and beliefs. ... Be the change you want to see and all that.
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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wtfluff
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Re: If the church were to admit and apologize...

Post by wtfluff » Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:15 am

Angel wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:34 pm
wtfluff wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:33 pm
Angel wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:02 am
What do you think, how far would a simple apology go?
...It would take a while to make up for that, and even then, would trust actually be restored?
What if they did not ask for your trust - but instead used their faults to promote individual agency and beliefs?
They've been incapable of "promoting individual agency and beliefs" for almost 200 years, I highly doubt a simple apology from them would change that.

I've already given way too much of my time and money to an organization that was dishonest with me my entire life.

I guess, in other words: Too little, too late.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

Brilliant.

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DPRoberts
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Re: If the church were to admit and apologize...

Post by DPRoberts » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:36 am

Hagoth wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:40 pm
I think you left out one option:

If the church were to admit and apologize...

□ Hell would freeze over.

I might reconsider if they followed one small piece of advice: " go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me."
I vote for Hagoth's option.
When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or cease to be honest. -anon
The belief that there is only one truth, and that oneself is in possession of it, is the root of all evil in the world. -Max Born

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