What was your first NOM thought?

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alas
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Re: What was your first NOM thought?

Post by alas » Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:35 am

My primary teacher was telling some story about how WONDERFUL Joseph Smith was, and something about what he did/said in the story caused me to think the man was an egotistical, selfish, jerk. The teacher was going on and on about how wonderful Joseph was, and I am thinking my teacher is crazzzzzzzzzzzzzy to think this selfish man is someone God would pick as prophet. My primary teacher may be crazzzzzzzzzzzzzzy, but I cannot worship a God who is crazy or rewards selfishness. I never got over that thought, but I looked for evidence of Joseph’s character. Not what people claimed he did, as in saw God, but did he care about the feelings of those around him? And I did not see evidence that he cared about the feelings of those around him other than caring about their loyalty to him.

See, my father was a bit of a narcissist and was simply incapable of even thinking that other people might have feelings. If Dad didn’t need a bathroom stop while we were traveling, then by god, the toddler in the back seat didn’t need a bathroom stop. If Dad wasn’t hungry, then nobody could be hungry. And nobody was allowed to love anybody or anything except to love him. So, when Mom said she just loved the rose bush by the front door, Dad dug it out the next week. But I saw this same character trait in Joseph. Nobody could love something or somebody more than they loved him. Think of the loyalty test he gave Heber Kimble. “Do you love ME enough to give me your beloved wife Violet? Oh, you do? Just kidding, I really want your 14 year old daughter.” That was the kind of mind game my father played with people. Only it was a three year old with their security toy. “Do you love ME enough to give me your teddy bear you cannot go to sleep without and let me burn it? Oh you don’t? Well, I am going to burn the teddy bear anyway.” Yeah, my dad was an a.hat. And I saw the same character in Joseph Smith. My primary teacher saw nothing wrong with the behavior in the story, which is the only reason she would tell it as an example of how great JS was. But I recognized it as something my dad would do.

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MerrieMiss
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Re: What was your first NOM thought?

Post by MerrieMiss » Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:33 pm

Well, if I go back to my childhood it was about getting baptized. I got a journal and was told to record how I felt. I wrote, "I felt warm." And I remember thinking to myself at the time, and every time I went back to read it, that I was pretty sure it was the water that was warm and not the spirit, but I didn't add that because I knew it wasn't appropriate.

One of the things that got me going about nine years ago however was when I was asked to use my professional expertise for a RS activity and a woman on the board kept changing everything I did because the spirit told her I didn't do it right. I finally got so irritated about it that I challenged her and said the spirit told me to keep it the way it was. She capitulated immediately and said if the spirit said so we'd better listen. I felt so queasy and sick realizing how easy and how often people used the spirit to manipulate and get what they wanted. Before that I wasn't sure, I' d wondered about it, but gave people the benefit of the doubt. I'd always assumed I was at fault for not feeling the spirit.
The true opposite of order is not disorder but freedom. Most profoundly, the true opposite of control is not chaos but self-control. -Jay Griffiths

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Newme
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Re: What was your first NOM thought?

Post by Newme » Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:13 pm

1) Realized my mom acted differently around church people - much nicer.

2) Around the same time: questioned finances & was told donations are not for God (who doesn’t need them) but for exercising our faith. And, when considering serving a mission, went on splits and couldn’t believe after a black woman shared a sweet but profound “non-lds” testimony, the missionary dismissed it and gave a memorized speech. Also at a missionary meeting numbers seemed to be the focus.

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Newme
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Re: What was your first NOM thought?

Post by Newme » Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:22 pm

Angel wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:41 pm
deacon blues wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:11 pm
....I am still subject to occasional TBM thoughts, but I also am still deciding what to be when I grow up, so......
I am still trying to decide too. I think there are multiple ways to do "Mormon".

One way is the naive - just keep yourself ignorant - see the church through rose-colored glasses approach..."infallible" leaders and church...

Another way (and we shall see how many are going to allow me to do this) is - believe in a "fallible" church, a church you cannot rely on (learn we can only rely on our self), but at least one with many lessons. You take the good and the bad - try to change the bad, and take ownership of your own beliefs regardless of what is preached from the pulpit... Kind of like going to a University where you do not agree with all of the professors, or being a member of a political party where you do not agree with all the policies.
I like how you put that in comparing it like a university or political party when you don’t agree on everything.

The more “my eyes are open” the more I realize details, like sources of disagreement that are found among any 2 people. And being programmed for survival I guess there’s a tendency to focus on what’s wrong rather than what’s right. So I’m practicing assertively considering what ought to be improved but compassionately focusing on what’s good as is. Never-ending challenge.

Reuben
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Re: What was your first NOM thought?

Post by Reuben » Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:41 pm

At the temple: "Now, what church do I belong to, again?"

Got used to it, though.
You were born to trust, not fear. It is your birthright.

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Raylan Givens
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Re: What was your first NOM thought?

Post by Raylan Givens » Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:31 pm

Reuben wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:41 pm
At the temple: "Now, what church do I belong to, again?"

Got used to it, though.
Temple was my undoing too

DW's, this last year. Trying to explain Easter to our little kids, and watching their expressions...she felt like she was describing a zombie.
"Ah, you know, I think you use the Bible to do whatever the hell you like" - Raylan Givens

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Corsair
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Re: What was your first NOM thought?

Post by Corsair » Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:39 am

I was randomly looking at something on web that was vaguely LDS related and came across the phrase, General Conference Drinking Game. This made no sense because surely no believing Mormon would combine alcohol with the church under any circumstance. Surley the entirety of the LDS church members were teetotalers from the time of receiving D&C 89. Ah, what a sweet, naive believer I was.

Alas, or rather, thank the Flying Spaghetti Monster I continued down that rabbit hole. I quickly discovered Joseph's plural marriages, translation problems in everything and a long string of clearly non-divine events and decisions throughout the entirety of LDS history. It's not that I can't accept that prophets were "men". It's that at no time was there clear evidence that they ever acted like the Eternal Creator God of the Universe was speaking to them and giving them a timeless perspective on anything.

I ran across version one of newordermormon.org which was helpful, but my time as a nuanced believer was quickly overshadowed by feelings of complete betrayal and deep annoyance. My time spent as a classic "NOM" was short and I proceeded to "unbeliever" who was not sure what I should be doing at this point.

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Angel
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Re: What was your first NOM thought?

Post by Angel » Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:58 pm

Newme wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:22 pm
Angel wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:41 pm
deacon blues wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:11 pm
....I am still subject to occasional TBM thoughts, but I also am still deciding what to be when I grow up, so......
I am still trying to decide too. I think there are multiple ways to do "Mormon".

One way is the naive - just keep yourself ignorant - see the church through rose-colored glasses approach..."infallible" leaders and church...

Another way (and we shall see how many are going to allow me to do this) is - believe in a "fallible" church, a church you cannot rely on (learn we can only rely on our self), but at least one with many lessons. You take the good and the bad - try to change the bad, and take ownership of your own beliefs regardless of what is preached from the pulpit... Kind of like going to a University where you do not agree with all of the professors, or being a member of a political party where you do not agree with all the policies.
I like how you put that in comparing it like a university or political party when you don’t agree on everything.

The more “my eyes are open” the more I realize details, like sources of disagreement that are found among any 2 people. And being programmed for survival I guess there’s a tendency to focus on what’s wrong rather than what’s right. So I’m practicing assertively considering what ought to be improved but compassionately focusing on what’s good as is. Never-ending challenge.
I think part of the journey is supposed to be as an individual, and part of of the journey is supposed to be in a community. If the community were perfect there would be no reason to exercise our free agency, no reason to think and act for our self, no need for a personal/private/intimate testimony.

I recently wrote to our stake president - I like that the "follow the prophet" children's song has a verse in there about Jonah - "Jonah was a prophet, tried to run away..." :lol: the kids are not supposed to follow that prophet :mrgreen: or any prophet 100%. Fallible leaders are a good thing - it allows everyone freedom to think and act for themselves.
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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jfro18
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Re: What was your first NOM thought?

Post by jfro18 » Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:13 am

My first NOM thought was definitely polygamy.

DW and I started dating at 15 years old in HS... so of course dating while in HS leads to a lot of jealousy as we both spent time with others at different points. So at that time DW a few times got very jealous of someone I used to like (yes, we were in high school) years earlier...

So I'm sitting there at church thinking "What kind of God would purposely allow men to sex up other women and force the wife to accept this?" That was something I could never get past no matter how many times I tried to dismiss it as "They were just helping widows and it wasn't sexual" because while I didn't know what Joseph had done yet, I did know what Brigham did.

So that was my first crack that I could never fill. The temple broke me mentally with the church, but that was years later... although the temple was a more instant reaction where the polygamy one just slowly dug away at me.

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Newme
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Re: What was your first NOM thought?

Post by Newme » Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:41 pm

Angel wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:58 pm
Newme wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:22 pm
Angel wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:41 pm


I am still trying to decide too. I think there are multiple ways to do "Mormon".

One way is the naive - just keep yourself ignorant - see the church through rose-colored glasses approach..."infallible" leaders and church...

Another way (and we shall see how many are going to allow me to do this) is - believe in a "fallible" church, a church you cannot rely on (learn we can only rely on our self), but at least one with many lessons. You take the good and the bad - try to change the bad, and take ownership of your own beliefs regardless of what is preached from the pulpit... Kind of like going to a University where you do not agree with all of the professors, or being a member of a political party where you do not agree with all the policies.
I like how you put that in comparing it like a university or political party when you don’t agree on everything.

The more “my eyes are open” the more I realize details, like sources of disagreement that are found among any 2 people. And being programmed for survival I guess there’s a tendency to focus on what’s wrong rather than what’s right. So I’m practicing assertively considering what ought to be improved but compassionately focusing on what’s good as is. Never-ending challenge.
I think part of the journey is supposed to be as an individual, and part of of the journey is supposed to be in a community. If the community were perfect there would be no reason to exercise our free agency, no reason to think and act for our self, no need for a personal/private/intimate testimony.

I recently wrote to our stake president - I like that the "follow the prophet" children's song has a verse in there about Jonah - "Jonah was a prophet, tried to run away..." :lol: the kids are not supposed to follow that prophet :mrgreen: or any prophet 100%. Fallible leaders are a good thing - it allows everyone freedom to think and act for themselves.
:lol:
Image

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Angel
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Re: What was your first NOM thought?

Post by Angel » Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:25 pm

Newme wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:41 pm

Image
:lol: :lol: :lol:
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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LostGirl
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Re: What was your first NOM thought?

Post by LostGirl » Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:17 am

A very early thought was - hang on, what exactly have I done that I'm supposed to be repenting of every single day? I realised I was feeling guilty for nothing.

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wtfluff
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Re: What was your first NOM thought?

Post by wtfluff » Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:11 pm

Here's another "NOM thought" that was quite nagging for me as a believer:

The fact that in mormon theology, humans are actually much better off if they never hear about mormonism on earth. It's going to be obvious that mormonism is "the way" once they're dead, and they get to easily punch their ticket to super VIP heaven without ever having to deal the BS of mormonism during their "mortal probation."

I was told I was "lucky" to be born into it, but the part mentioned above never really added up.


("Someone" may or may not have mentioned this on "another" message-type-board." Thought I'd spread a bit of it over here...)
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

Brilliant.

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deacon blues
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Re: What was your first NOM thought?

Post by deacon blues » Sat Apr 13, 2019 5:11 pm

Angel wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:25 pm
Newme wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:41 pm

Image
:lol: :lol: :lol:
:lol: This is awesome. I want to put it on my fridge.
God is Love. God is Truth

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deacon blues
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Re: What was your first NOM thought?

Post by deacon blues » Sat Apr 13, 2019 5:20 pm

MerrieMiss wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:33 pm
Well, if I go back to my childhood it was about getting baptized. I got a journal and was told to record how I felt. I wrote, "I felt warm." And I remember thinking to myself at the time, and every time I went back to read it, that I was pretty sure it was the water that was warm and not the spirit, but I didn't add that because I knew it wasn't appropriate.

One of the things that got me going about nine years ago however was when I was asked to use my professional expertise for a RS activity and a woman on the board kept changing everything I did because the spirit told her I didn't do it right. I finally got so irritated about it that I challenged her and said the spirit told me to keep it the way it was. She capitulated immediately and said if the spirit said so we'd better listen. I felt so queasy and sick realizing how easy and how often people used the spirit to manipulate and get what they wanted. Before that I wasn't sure, I' d wondered about it, but gave people the benefit of the doubt. I'd always assumed I was at fault for not feeling the spirit.
This is very true, and probably more common than TBM's would like to admit. "The Spirit" can be easily manipulated in so many ways. I remember Missionary Conferences where Elders related "spiritual" stories and then later told me they made them up. The movie "Fiddler On the Roof" has a great scene where Tevye makes up a dream to get out of a awkward situation. (Yes I know it was fiction) ;) Paul Dunn and Jeffrey Holland come to mind as well.
God is Love. God is Truth

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hmb
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Re: What was your first NOM thought?

Post by hmb » Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:16 am

Hmmm, first NOM thought. I remember thinking that the CK sounded like an awful place. I would much rather hang out with less than perfect sinners in a lower kingdom. 24/7 church didn't cut it with me. Spitting out a bunch of ungrateful offspring didn't not sound like peace and happiness. In order to live an eternity of happiness/joy, you must be some uncaring God(dess) if you can be have complete joy with 99% of your children living lives of sin. I figured there was something wrong with me. I would look at members who were intelligent and happy (appearances) and think, they must know something I don't. Maybe I can trust them. It took a lot of years to finally let it go. NOW I have peace (freedom from mormon guilt). Life isn't perfect, but it's smooth and without the worry that I'm going to be punished from an angry conditional being.

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MoPag
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Re: What was your first NOM thought?

Post by MoPag » Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:31 am

wtfluff wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:11 pm
Here's another "NOM thought" that was quite nagging for me as a believer:

The fact that in mormon theology, humans are actually much better off if they never hear about mormonism on earth. It's going to be obvious that mormonism is "the way" once they're dead, and they get to easily punch their ticket to super VIP heaven without ever having to deal the BS of mormonism during their "mortal probation."

I was told I was "lucky" to be born into it, but the part mentioned above never really added up.


("Someone" may or may not have mentioned this on "another" message-type-board." Thought I'd spread a bit of it over here...)
Fluff I used to think this all the time too. I remember being so sad I was born into the church because I could have been a regular person and had a fun life and then joined the church when I died. And then I would get all paranoid about sharing the gospel with my friends because if they rejected it, then they were eternally screwed. But if the first time they heard about the gospel was in the afterlife, then of course they would accept it because , you know, afterlife. So then they would be saved.
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

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slavereeno
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Re: What was your first NOM thought?

Post by slavereeno » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:25 pm

I guess that depends on what you mean, If this means the first item on the shelf... Then it would be the fact that I read, prayed, and fasted for a testimony of the BoM and never got squat. It never resonated with me, I kept thinking something was wrong with me. Why didn't I like it like everyone else did? Why don't I get the feels when reading and or fasting and praying about it? I have read and prayed about it at least a dozen times over the years and nothing but a stupor of thought. The first time I prayed about it was in high school, so I guess that was my first shelf item. Temple soon after and it was a nightmare.

If you are talking about the thing that broke the shelf, watching the stake president falling all over himself to impress the apostles when they came. I was embarrassed for him. The leader worship was just super icky, the apostles were super needy and arrogant, and something inside me broke. I read the CES Letter the next day.

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blazerb
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Re: What was your first NOM thought?

Post by blazerb » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:49 pm

MoPag wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:31 am
wtfluff wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:11 pm
Here's another "NOM thought" that was quite nagging for me as a believer:

The fact that in mormon theology, humans are actually much better off if they never hear about mormonism on earth. It's going to be obvious that mormonism is "the way" once they're dead, and they get to easily punch their ticket to super VIP heaven without ever having to deal the BS of mormonism during their "mortal probation."

I was told I was "lucky" to be born into it, but the part mentioned above never really added up.


("Someone" may or may not have mentioned this on "another" message-type-board." Thought I'd spread a bit of it over here...)
Fluff I used to think this all the time too. I remember being so sad I was born into the church because I could have been a regular person and had a fun life and then joined the church when I died. And then I would get all paranoid about sharing the gospel with my friends because if they rejected it, then they were eternally screwed. But if the first time they heard about the gospel was in the afterlife, then of course they would accept it because , you know, afterlife. So then they would be saved.
I had the same thoughts, but I successfully convinced myself that I would be happier in this life as a member of the church. Lying to myself was not good.

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Random
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Re: What was your first NOM thought?

Post by Random » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:47 pm

I remember, on my mission, thinking that we had prophets just like they had in the Bible. I had to push and squeeze and twist, but I finally almost believed it was true. Missing: Them reporting on the visions they had, enduring real persecution, being hated, and something I couldn't put my finger on.
[They] which knew me from the beginning . . . would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
Acts 26:5

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