After Removing Secret Ordinances, What Should the Temples Be Used For?

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Linked
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After Removing Secret Ordinances, What Should the Temples Be Used For?

Post by Linked » Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:46 pm

misterfake made a comment in the "Who Should Be Able To Enter the Temple?" thread about removing the secret stuff from the temples, but not knowing what to do with the temples then. I think it's an interesting idea.

If the church were to do away with the secret ordinances in the temples then those buildings would be available for other activities. Having your baptism in the oxen fonts would be way cooler than the big bathtub at the local stake center. The smaller sealing rooms could be converted into sound-proof piano rooms like in the basement of the HFAC at BYU and people could go practice there. The building could of course be used for Sunday services and other meetings. The temples would be less ominous if they were used this way.
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Re: After Removing Secret Ordinances, What Should the Temples Be Used For?

Post by Corsair » Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:58 pm

I would vote for study, meditation, and true gospel instruction. The problem is that if the temple doesn't have secret/sacred ordinances, they lost their core reason for existence. No one is going to sacrifice to attend a building if it does not offer exclusive ordinances of salvation. The cost, expense, and time commitment would not be continued if it concentrated on study, meditation, and gospel instruction like a regular old church. All of those old stories of people who saved and sacrificed just for one brief visit to a temple immediately become a source of historical oppression by the institutional church. The church is kind of painted in a corner with this obligation.

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Re: After Removing Secret Ordinances, What Should the Temples Be Used For?

Post by wtfluff » Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:12 pm

Remove the secret stuff and you're left with an over-priced, gaudy building with a few movie theaters, an overly-gaudy room that looks like a gaudy hotel entrance with weird curtains on one wall, and a funky hot-tub in the basement.

What should the be used for? Why not go back to the beginning and use them just like the Kirtland temple? Meetings, parties, dances... They'd really be basically a fancy (gaudy) chapel at that point. I'm all for having a "fasting party" for a few days, then pounding "sacrament wine" out of buckets to attempt to experience a "Day of Pentecost" too.
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Re: After Removing Secret Ordinances, What Should the Temples Be Used For?

Post by Red Ryder » Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:59 pm

Sex cult stuff...
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Re: After Removing Secret Ordinances, What Should the Temples Be Used For?

Post by misterfake371 » Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:24 pm

After giving the matter some more thought... I think we should just sell the temples. I'm sure investors and entrepreneurs could come up with something cool to do with the temples. Or they could even get demolished and we could sell the land. Some of the temples are sitting on very valuable pieces of land. Then the Church could use the money to feed the hungry and help the downtrodden of the world.

Really, what other Christian denomination has buildings that only a few qualified members can enter? Scientology has a lot of secret buildings and secret ordinances, I think, but that's not a Christian denomination. That's a cult.

Funny story. I'm gonna go get my TR renewed in about an hour and a half. LOL.

I'm kinda conflicted because I have had a lot of special experiences in the temple, and I know that a lot of people have too, so maybe we should keep the temples up and running. I especially like pageants and Christmas lights at the Mesa, Arizona temple.

But... we really don't need the temples. God would find a way to enter the hearts and lives of His children even if all the LDS temples on the earth vanished overnight.
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep His commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. Ecclesiastes 12:13

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Re: After Removing Secret Ordinances, What Should the Temples Be Used For?

Post by Hagoth » Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:59 am

misterfake371 wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:24 pm
Funny story. I'm gonna go get my TR renewed in about an hour and a half. LOL.
Good for you. You have paid dearly for it. You are a part owner of the temple, so why shouldn't you be able to go if you want?

Here's what I think would happen if they removed the secret ordinances. Tithing income would drop off dramatically once they stopped selling their signs and tokens for money. The temples would be sold off and they would make some very nice homes for the wealthy after extensive remodelling. Rich Mormons would probably buy them up for themselves to keep them from falling into enemy hands.
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Re: After Removing Secret Ordinances, What Should the Temples Be Used For?

Post by wtfluff » Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:21 am

Red Ryder wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:59 pm
Sex cult stuff...
Ah, so you want to return to Nauvoo era temples eh?
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Re: After Removing Secret Ordinances, What Should the Temples Be Used For?

Post by nibbler » Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:35 am

What about keeping the same ordinances but getting rid of the secret part? Temples opened up to any card carrying member that's at least 18; where being a member is the only requirement, not only to people that meet specific worthiness or belief requirements but to all members. You show up to the temple, the very act of showing up displays enough faith to qualify someone to enter. Once you're inside you can choose to do vicarious ordinances or choose to do the ordinances for yourself again. You can do your own endowment as often as you'd like.

A temple without any ordinances? Maybe they could be quiet places of reflection and meditation, but I think we'd have a real challenge with that in the existing culture. We don't do quiet meditation so well, we like to keep people busy. Right now it feels like being quiet and contemplative would be viewed as not serving a "gospel purpose." It wouldn't accomplish anything. There's no box to check. There's no metric to measure progress. What good is it? I think that's how the business types would view it.

I could see making some temples more general purpose and open to the public. The smaller temples aren't really suited for much else than the function they're currently providing. Small temples would make for a lousy meeting location, since any stake center cultural hall is larger than the space a smaller temple could provide, even if smaller temples were gutted of all interior walls.

Opening things up to the masses might make crowding an issue, at least initially. Especially in the popular or landmark temples. I don't know whether more or less people would show up to the temple to meditate/pray than would show up to do ordinances. I know I'd go more often under the meditation plan but here again, the smaller temples don't really have the space if that demand turns out to be high. I like a quiet corner, not a crowded chapel.
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Re: After Removing Secret Ordinances, What Should the Temples Be Used For?

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:57 am

misterfake371 wrote:Funny story. I'm gonna go get my TR renewed in about an hour and a half. LOL.

I'm kinda conflicted because I have had a lot of special experiences in the temple, and I know that a lot of people have too, so maybe we should keep the temples up and running. I especially like pageants and Christmas lights at the Mesa, Arizona temple.
Ah, we've all renewed for whatever reasons. It's important so no judgement here.

Have you seen what's happened at the Mesa temple?

Apparently the drought in Arizona has left the grounds desolate and barren like an old testament wife and they've installed slides on the windows so the wimpy kids these days who don't understand symbolism can jump out the window without injury when anyone is invited to leave on their own free will!

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Re: After Removing Secret Ordinances, What Should the Temples Be Used For?

Post by Hagoth » Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:32 am

How about this. Turn them into visitor centers with accessible genealogical libraries and offices that coordinate volunteer work. Instead of sending missionaries to every door invite people into the temples to have discussions and watch films.

Retain some space for ordinances and spiritual contemplation, but make it a useful place for living people, rather than a place to do pretend service for dead people.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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Re: After Removing Secret Ordinances, What Should the Temples Be Used For?

Post by misterfake371 » Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:04 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:57 am

Have you seen what's happened at the Mesa temple?
Yeah, the Mesa temple is in the middle of a 2 year remodeling project. I drove by it a few weeks ago. It's kind of sad that they got rid of all that great old vegetation. There were some gigantic, beautiful trees there, and cactus, and a giant log of petrified wood. I actually proposed to my wife on the bench next to the petrified wood. My brother "monomo" got married there, I got my endowments there for the first time, etc. So I do have emotional attachment to that building, like a lot of other people do.
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep His commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. Ecclesiastes 12:13

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Re: After Removing Secret Ordinances, What Should the Temples Be Used For?

Post by 2bizE » Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:55 am

I can picture after the hot tub party, bikini bottoms and tops hanging from the oxen horns...
A movie theater would work well with a food court.
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Re: After Removing Secret Ordinances, What Should the Temples Be Used For?

Post by blazerb » Sat Mar 23, 2019 5:47 am

nibbler wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:35 am
A temple without any ordinances? Maybe they could be quiet places of reflection and meditation, but I think we'd have a real challenge with that in the existing culture. We don't do quiet meditation so well, we like to keep people busy. Right now it feels like being quiet and contemplative would be viewed as not serving a "gospel purpose." It wouldn't accomplish anything. There's no box to check. There's no metric to measure progress. What good is it? I think that's how the business types would view it.
Even now, if you try to meditate in the temple, someone will tell you that it's not the right place. They shoo you out of the Celestial Room if you stay too long. You can't just slip into a room by yourself without raising someone's blood pressure. Instead, you're supposed to do your meditating just before sacrament meeting when families with kids are trying to get them to settle down for an hour. Those families are shamed for disturbing the "reverent" atmosphere.

Sorry for the threadjack. I have strong feelings about this. It ticks me off that our leaders demand reverence at times and places where it is unreasonable and object to people enjoying the quiet in the place where it has been created. It's just bass-ackwards.

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Re: After Removing Secret Ordinances, What Should the Temples Be Used For?

Post by alas » Sat Mar 23, 2019 8:58 am

blazerb wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 5:47 am
nibbler wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:35 am
A temple without any ordinances? Maybe they could be quiet places of reflection and meditation, but I think we'd have a real challenge with that in the existing culture. We don't do quiet meditation so well, we like to keep people busy. Right now it feels like being quiet and contemplative would be viewed as not serving a "gospel purpose." It wouldn't accomplish anything. There's no box to check. There's no metric to measure progress. What good is it? I think that's how the business types would view it.
Even now, if you try to meditate in the temple, someone will tell you that it's not the right place. They shoo you out of the Celestial Room if you stay too long. You can't just slip into a room by yourself without raising someone's blood pressure. Instead, you're supposed to do your meditating just before sacrament meeting when families with kids are trying to get them to settle down for an hour. Those families are shamed for disturbing the "reverent" atmosphere.

Sorry for the threadjack. I have strong feelings about this. It ticks me off that our leaders demand reverence at times and places where it is unreasonable and object to people enjoying the quiet in the place where it has been created. It's just bass-ackwards.
Yes! I think the quiet meditation is lacking in Mormon culture. It actually makes for a sick culture where pondering is talked about, but the reality is that any deep thinking or pondering is discouraged. The only pondering permitted is in the noisy chapel during the sacrament.

Mormons actually seem scared of meditating. As if, if they ponder too deeply the bottom will fall out. As if digging too deep will dig down to a balrog as in the mines of Moria. As if they Know that if they really contemplate Mormonism, they will be faced with its flaws. Maybe t has happened and terrified them.

I got my masters degree at a Catholic university because we happened to be stationed at the Air Force base near one of the best Social Work schools in the nation. But across from the social work school on the main campus, they had their chapel. I would go there to meditate. I slipped and mentioned it in front of my bishop, and he about blew a gasket. He was equally upset over “meditating” and “Catholic Chapel”. I blew up right back at him with his prejudice toward Catholic as evil, his fear of meditating, and that no matter where I find to meditate and pray, I pray to the same God. For crying out loud, Catholics worship the same God we do. I don’t think I got through to him although he did back down and admit we worship the same God as Catholics, but I think after that he saw me as some kind of heretic, intellectual (that Packer had named as an enemy to the church) and Catholic sympathizer, and a (gasp) meditator. That conversation really opened my eyes to a fear in Mormonism that deep thinking will lead you astray. If you stop the frantic busywork of Mormonism, you will realize it is nothing but busywork. I guess he was right after all. If you think too deeply about Mormonism, you dig up a balrog.

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Re: After Removing Secret Ordinances, What Should the Temples Be Used For?

Post by moksha » Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:18 am

I would like Temple goers to be able to continue the much-loved tradition of nude Temple clogging.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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Re: After Removing Secret Ordinances, What Should the Temples Be Used For?

Post by blazerb » Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:49 am

alas wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 8:58 am
Yes! I think the quiet meditation is lacking in Mormon culture. It actually makes for a sick culture where pondering is talked about, but the reality is that any deep thinking or pondering is discouraged. The only pondering permitted is in the noisy chapel during the sacrament.

Mormons actually seem scared of meditating. As if, if they ponder too deeply the bottom will fall out. As if digging too deep will dig down to a balrog as in the mines of Moria. As if they Know that if they really contemplate Mormonism, they will be faced with its flaws. Maybe t has happened and terrified them.

I got my masters degree at a Catholic university because we happened to be stationed at the Air Force base near one of the best Social Work schools in the nation. But across from the social work school on the main campus, they had their chapel. I would go there to meditate. I slipped and mentioned it in front of my bishop, and he about blew a gasket. He was equally upset over “meditating” and “Catholic Chapel”. I blew up right back at him with his prejudice toward Catholic as evil, his fear of meditating, and that no matter where I find to meditate and pray, I pray to the same God. For crying out loud, Catholics worship the same God we do. I don’t think I got through to him although he did back down and admit we worship the same God as Catholics, but I think after that he saw me as some kind of heretic, intellectual (that Packer had named as an enemy to the church) and Catholic sympathizer, and a (gasp) meditator. That conversation really opened my eyes to a fear in Mormonism that deep thinking will lead you astray. If you stop the frantic busywork of Mormonism, you will realize it is nothing but busywork. I guess he was right after all. If you think too deeply about Mormonism, you dig up a balrog.
Awesome! The thing is many people in the church crave quiet meditation, but the leaders don't have any realistic ideas about how to meet that need. We end up doing it at home while we see out friends in other denominations filling that need at church. The Catholic church is great about providing quiet spaces.

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