Brainstorm - Psychological Damage

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Red Ryder
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Brainstorm - Psychological Damage

Post by Red Ryder » Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:28 am

I don't think we've accumulated a list of issues that fit under the psychological damage umbrella. What are the top 10 issues you would consider the most psychologically damaging.

Perfectionism
Sexual repression
Misogyny
Infantilization
Inability to think on your own
Religious underwear
Toxic shame
Group think
Religious Scrupulosity
Self Esteem

Can we list 100 issues?
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Kishkumen
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Re: Brainstorm - Psychological Damage

Post by Kishkumen » Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:49 pm

In no particular order in additional to RR

Shame (internal and external)
Tribalism
Secrecy
Tradition for the sake of Tradition
Coercion
Blind obedience
Virtue Signaling
Chasity/Purity misconceptions

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vankimber
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Re: Brainstorm - Psychological Damage

Post by vankimber » Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:58 pm

Here’s a few more:

Intolerance
Rigidity
Tunnel vision
Conformity

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RubinHighlander
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Re: Brainstorm - Psychological Damage

Post by RubinHighlander » Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:06 pm

Pedogamy
Imaginary Defects
Abuse Cover Up
Victim Blaming
Supernatural attribution of common probability
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Hagoth
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Re: Brainstorm - Psychological Damage

Post by Hagoth » Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:20 pm

Phariseeism
Inventing nonexistent problems to sell unnecessary cures
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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MoPag
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Re: Brainstorm - Psychological Damage

Post by MoPag » Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:53 pm

Prosperity doctrine
homophobia
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

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Ho Lee Turtle
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Re: Brainstorm - Psychological Damage

Post by Ho Lee Turtle » Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:56 pm

Gaslighting
Identity change from Mormon to ETCOJCOLDS
Scouting
Unscientific health code
Doctrinal drift
Academic dishonesty
Historical fact manipulation
Being voluntold to serve in callings

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glass shelf
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Re: Brainstorm - Psychological Damage

Post by glass shelf » Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:35 am

overly enmeshed families
codependent relationships
overzealous sense of responsibility
guilt regarding self-care and self-prioritization
lack of healthy boundaries (both creation and recognization of)

Kishkumen
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Re: Brainstorm - Psychological Damage

Post by Kishkumen » Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:48 am

glass shelf wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:35 am
overly enmeshed families
codependent relationships
overzealous sense of responsibility
guilt regarding self-care and self-prioritization
lack of healthy boundaries (both creation and recognization of)
Glass Shelf - would you mind elaborating a bit on your items above. These seems to strike a chord with me in my life currently. What are you thoughts about overly enmeshed families? Such as placing too much emphasis on the whole family tree an not enough on a single marriage/family unit?

What are your thoughts on codependent relationships? I think I see where you are going with this and I'm trying to sort out my thoughts.

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Red Ryder
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Re: Brainstorm - Psychological Damage

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:04 am

Kishkumen wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:48 am
glass shelf wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:35 am
overly enmeshed families
codependent relationships
overzealous sense of responsibility
guilt regarding self-care and self-prioritization
lack of healthy boundaries (both creation and recognization of)
Glass Shelf - would you mind elaborating a bit on your items above. These seems to strike a chord with me in my life currently. What are you thoughts about overly enmeshed families? Such as placing too much emphasis on the whole family tree an not enough on a single marriage/family unit?

What are your thoughts on codependent relationships? I think I see where you are going with this and I'm trying to sort out my thoughts.
You know the family type well. Mother and father in laws are controlling, overbearing, and host Sunday dinner every week followed by home study church and a testimony meeting. All nearby family members are expected to attend. The wife (their daughter) feels obligated to attend and pressures the husband to not complain and swallow the meatloaf without expressing distaste. He complies out of fear she will withhold sex another week and he's already feeling guilty for looking at porn. The wife feels tremendous pressure to please everyone including her TBM parents while raising kids in the gospel,keeping a clean house, and being the best damned ministering sister the 6th ward has ever seen. She's exhausted. He's exhausted. Yet the routine continues week after week. Meatloaf after meatloaf. Enmeshed in the grind of Mormon culture, exceedingly high expectations, and the authorized polyester pattern.
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

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Hagoth
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Re: Brainstorm - Psychological Damage

Post by Hagoth » Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:08 am

...and overly dramatic obsession about the potentially empty seat in the temple that would overshadow every other aspect of a person's/family's life.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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glass shelf
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Re: Brainstorm - Psychological Damage

Post by glass shelf » Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:49 pm

Kishkumen wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:48 am
glass shelf wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:35 am
overly enmeshed families
codependent relationships
overzealous sense of responsibility
guilt regarding self-care and self-prioritization
lack of healthy boundaries (both creation and recognization of)
Glass Shelf - would you mind elaborating a bit on your items above. These seems to strike a chord with me in my life currently. What are you thoughts about overly enmeshed families? Such as placing too much emphasis on the whole family tree an not enough on a single marriage/family unit?

What are your thoughts on codependent relationships? I think I see where you are going with this and I'm trying to sort out my thoughts.
I think there's a huge culture of parents feeling way too invested in their adult children's lives and those adult children letting them. Definitely some of what RR was talking about. My in-laws took it pretty damn personally when we left the church (some kind of reflection on their parenting skills or something) even though we were in our late 30s and hadn't lived in the same state as them for a decade. It's super unhealthy to base your worth as a human being on things that your adult kids are doing. (it's unhealthy to place it on things your minor kids are doing, too, but that's a different issue.)

Examples of ridiculous overenmeshment that I have witnessed:
-mandatory weekly or more dinners when people's schedules are way too busy to support this and not everyone wants it
-people who spent every last second of vacation time and their kids' breaks going back "home" to be with their parents when they've lived somewhere else forever; wives and kids who spend the summer away from dad to make sure the kids are at all the family reunions
-parents being obsessed with how behavior of kids in their 20s, 30s, 40s, and beyond makes them look
-feeling that everything that happens in the family is everyone's business (gossip in the form of "concerned sharing")
-adults who are still heavily financially dependent on parents when they have their own families which makes them beholden to parents
-family members feeling entitled to other family members' time for projects like house cleaning or DIY work without checking with them

I mean, could some of those things be done in healthy ways? Maybe. But anytime people start going on about how "it's faaaaaammmmilllly and we've always done it this way in our faaaaaammmmmiilllllyy," i think it's a red flag.

So, co-dependence goes hand in hand with this. You'll see it in a lot of parent-child relationships and also in marriages. You'll see it talked about a lot in addiction situations, but it doesn't have to be that. Think of it as people who use martyrdom and over-the-top self-sacrifice as a way of expressing love and (usuallt unconsciously) trying to influence the other person's behavior which ultimately creates a really unhealthy dynamic. Mormon women are basically trained to do this from birth in my experience.

Overzealous sense of responsibility? Well, you know how some people just can't say "no" without feeling guilty? That was me for.e.ver. After I finally learned how to say "no" people would ask for me ridiculous things, and then I'd feel terrible and guilty about it. Like it was my fault that I couldn't meet their ridiculous demands. Here's a fun story about this: When I had my third baby, my parents came to visit. Someone from the ward called me at 9:45 at night to see if their kid could use my laminator and some other supplies for a school project due the next morning. Now, they couldn't even make it to our house because we lived on a military base, so I would have had to take all this stuff to them in spite of just having a new baby and having family in town. I actually felt bad saying no when really they should have felt terrible asking me.

Or what about the time I had 3 three kids, a husband who was superbusy at work, and I was the Primary president who also acted as the music leader and taught a lesson most weeks because our branch didn't have enough adults who would serve in primary. Yet, I still felt bad that the kids didn't have activity days, so I decided to take that on, too? Yeah, problems.

The last two relate to all of this. I put myself last for many, many years. I kept trying to be more and more and more "Christlike" (read: doormat) as I thought I should be based on my religious beliefs. It led to so many unhealthy relationship outcomes. It was hard work to learn to set appropriate boundaries because I'd basically been taught that I was selfish if I ever put myself or my needs or wants first.

As for Mormons not recognizing boundaries, think of any ward council meeting. Think of a family that can't accept that other individuals are able to think differently and make different choices.

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JustHangingOn@57
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Re: Brainstorm - Psychological Damage

Post by JustHangingOn@57 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:51 pm

I would add to the list, but I'm terrified that someone will recognize me and report me to my bishop.

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alas
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Re: Brainstorm - Psychological Damage

Post by alas » Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:50 pm

glass shelf wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:49 pm
Kishkumen wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:48 am
glass shelf wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:35 am
overly enmeshed families
codependent relationships
overzealous sense of responsibility
guilt regarding self-care and self-prioritization
lack of healthy boundaries (both creation and recognization of)
Glass Shelf - would you mind elaborating a bit on your items above. These seems to strike a chord with me in my life currently. What are you thoughts about overly enmeshed families? Such as placing too much emphasis on the whole family tree an not enough on a single marriage/family unit?

What are your thoughts on codependent relationships? I think I see where you are going with this and I'm trying to sort out my thoughts.
I think there's a huge culture of parents feeling way too invested in their adult children's lives and those adult children letting them. Definitely some of what RR was talking about. My in-laws took it pretty damn personally when we left the church (some kind of reflection on their parenting skills or something) even though we were in our late 30s and hadn't lived in the same state as them for a decade. It's super unhealthy to base your worth as a human being on things that your adult kids are doing. (it's unhealthy to place it on things your minor kids are doing, too, but that's a different issue.)

Examples of ridiculous overenmeshment that I have witnessed:
-mandatory weekly or more dinners when people's schedules are way too busy to support this and not everyone wants it
-people who spent every last second of vacation time and their kids' breaks going back "home" to be with their parents when they've lived somewhere else forever; wives and kids who spend the summer away from dad to make sure the kids are at all the family reunions
-parents being obsessed with how behavior of kids in their 20s, 30s, 40s, and beyond makes them look
-feeling that everything that happens in the family is everyone's business (gossip in the form of "concerned sharing")
-adults who are still heavily financially dependent on parents when they have their own families which makes them beholden to parents
-family members feeling entitled to other family members' time for projects like house cleaning or DIY work without checking with them

I mean, could some of those things be done in healthy ways? Maybe. But anytime people start going on about how "it's faaaaaammmmilllly and we've always done it this way in our faaaaaammmmmiilllllyy," i think it's a red flag.

So, co-dependence goes hand in hand with this. You'll see it in a lot of parent-child relationships and also in marriages. You'll see it talked about a lot in addiction situations, but it doesn't have to be that. Think of it as people who use martyrdom and over-the-top self-sacrifice as a way of expressing love and (usuallt unconsciously) trying to influence the other person's behavior which ultimately creates a really unhealthy dynamic. Mormon women are basically trained to do this from birth in my experience.

Overzealous sense of responsibility? Well, you know how some people just can't say "no" without feeling guilty? That was me for.e.ver. After I finally learned how to say "no" people would ask for me ridiculous things, and then I'd feel terrible and guilty about it. Like it was my fault that I couldn't meet their ridiculous demands. Here's a fun story about this: When I had my third baby, my parents came to visit. Someone from the ward called me at 9:45 at night to see if their kid could use my laminator and some other supplies for a school project due the next morning. Now, they couldn't even make it to our house because we lived on a military base, so I would have had to take all this stuff to them in spite of just having a new baby and having family in town. I actually felt bad saying no when really they should have felt terrible asking me.

Or what about the time I had 3 three kids, a husband who was superbusy at work, and I was the Primary president who also acted as the music leader and taught a lesson most weeks because our branch didn't have enough adults who would serve in primary. Yet, I still felt bad that the kids didn't have activity days, so I decided to take that on, too? Yeah, problems.

The last two relate to all of this. I put myself last for many, many years. I kept trying to be more and more and more "Christlike" (read: doormat) as I thought I should be based on my religious beliefs. It led to so many unhealthy relationship outcomes. It was hard work to learn to set appropriate boundaries because I'd basically been taught that I was selfish if I ever put myself or my needs or wants first.

As for Mormons not recognizing boundaries, think of any ward council meeting. Think of a family that can't accept that other individuals are able to think differently and make different choices.
There are a couple of Mormon Boundary issues you are talking about here. I want to separate and emphasize them a bit.

One is family emmeshment. Bad boundaries among family members. But we can even break that down a bit more. So, :

1.a. Family emmeshment among immediate family. This is the dad who has weekly PPI’s with his kids, asking them questions whether or not they feel comfortable sharing. The family establishes this when the child is two or three, when parents have the obligation to know everything going on in the child’s life. But it becomes toxic when the teen aged child tries to separate from parents, but they still demand to know E.V.E.R.Y. Thing in the child’s life, down to small details about dates.

1.b. Generational boundaries being bad. This is where a child is placed in the role of an adult, either with responsibilities, or emotional support for an adult. This is often seen in large families with an overworked mother or a mother incapacitated due to illness, or simply a mother who is unhappy in her role as mother, when she starts depending on usually the oldest girl for help with younger children and help with housework. Not just assigned chores, but to the point that the girl becomes “junior mother” with much more than her share of chores and child care, or with authority over siblings such as she is put in charge of older brothers. And/or she is being used as emotional support, the sounding board for a bad marriage, the shoulder to cry on for a depressed mother, the companion to a needy father, the sexual partner of an unhappy father. Or with boys, if the father is absent and the 12 year old is told he is the man of the house or priesthood for the home, and then relayed on as such. It is bad enough to tell the kid that, but to put him in the position of taking on adult responsiblity can be really damaging. There can also be damage when a mother leans on her oldest boy for emotional support or companionship.

Now, these things can and do happen outside of Mormonism, but are perhaps more common in Mormonism for a variety of reasons.

2. Family enmeshment among extended family. While getting together every week at Grandma’s for a meal can be good and just indicate a close family, or it can also be a symptom of lack of boundaries and lack of allowing grown children be adults. I have seen both among Mormon families. The thing about the parents controlling their adult children’s religious choices is very common in Mormonism. How many here feel they cannot tell their parents? Yup, enmeshment. But it can be worse with parents flipping out over hobbies, such as an interest in cosplay, or any hobby that the parents would not choose for the child. The parent often will use the idea that interest in whatever is unrighteous because it takes the adult child in a different direction than 100% church. Or there is my grandmother who picked the career for her sons, even after they had been away for WWII for 5 years and come home and Mom decides John will be a doctor, Joe will be a lawyer, Sam will run the ranch. And my dad who had zero interest in the study of law, dutifully spends the next 10 years getting his PhD in law.

3. Then we have millennials who refuse to grow up and are still living with Mom & Dad at 30 and mom & dad allow it. I don’t see this one as any worse in Mormonism.



Slightly different than enmeshment but still a boundary issue, is the role of women as caretaker of others. This also effects men in that all of us are taught that we have no right to say no to a calling, or to say no to specific duties in our calling. But because of gender roles, it is worse for women. The Mormon feminine ideal is of the self sacrificing mother/Church worker. Where women are just expected to take care of others first. Women are not supposed to have needs, but are there to meet the needs of their family or the ward. My unfavorite example of this was when I was RSP, and I started hemorrhaging during a pregnancy. But I could not follow my doctor’s orders to go to bed, stay flat on my back till the bleeding stopped because some other woman in the ward was *also* threatening miscarriage and her children needed to be cared for so she could stay flat on her back. Same situation, but because I was RSP, I simply was EXPECTED to take care of this other woman’s need to stay in bed, even if it meant that I miscarried *MY* baby. So, I was tending my two toddlers AND her 4 children because they were such brats that I could not find anyone willing to babysit them. What the hell is wrong with this church? My bishop *ordered* me to find someone to watch her children, and no matter that I tried to explain about the fact that I was in just as bad of a situation as sister X, and my doctor had told me to stay flat on my back, it didn’t matter. My duty as RSP trumped my physical health and my baby’s life. I simply was not allowed to have needs. I was RSP. In a different ward, in a different state, I had similar problems as primary president where I was expected to keep primary functioning no matter what was going on in my life.

Sometimes this duty to church trumps your own needs happens to men also, where the bishop’s needs come below the needs of ward members. But usually with the bishop, he can delegate and seldom would have someone literally ordering him to put his needs last, even at risk of his health or his child’s life.

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redjay
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Re: Brainstorm - Psychological Damage

Post by redjay » Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:14 pm

persistant cognitive dissonance.
At the halfway home. I'm a full-grown man. But I'm not afraid to cry.

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MerrieMiss
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Re: Brainstorm - Psychological Damage

Post by MerrieMiss » Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:28 pm

glass shelf wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:49 pm
I mean, could some of those things be done in healthy ways? Maybe. But anytime people start going on about how "it's faaaaaammmmilllly and we've always done it this way in our faaaaaammmmmiilllllyy," i think it's a red flag.
I see that you've met my in-laws.

(And alas too - some of your examples so accurate I'd swear you were there, eating the same crappy Sunday dinner and listening to the conversation too.)

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glass shelf
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Re: Brainstorm - Psychological Damage

Post by glass shelf » Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:14 pm

Alas-
I think all of these things can be so entertwined that it's really hard to separate them out, so thanks for adding your thoughts.

Basically, for me, it boiled down to the fact that I was supposed to be some kind of peacemaking doormat with no personal needs who put everyone first. Enough years of that, and you're headed for a mental breakdown for sure.

I started trying to understand these things years before I left Mormonism and really putting in a lot of work to change my relationships. I always made excuses for the church like "It's just culture not the religion" or "people aren't perfect" or whatever until the day I saw this video. It was an anvil on the shelf. I told everyone about it and how upset it made me. It was a few weeks after that when I discovered the essays, and that was the end for me.

https://www.mormonchannel.org/watch/ser ... never-know

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Red Ryder
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Re: Brainstorm - Psychological Damage

Post by Red Ryder » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:06 pm

glass shelf wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:14 pm
Alas-
I think all of these things can be so entertwined that it's really hard to separate them out, so thanks for adding your thoughts.

Basically, for me, it boiled down to the fact that I was supposed to be some kind of peacemaking doormat with no personal needs who put everyone first. Enough years of that, and you're headed for a mental breakdown for sure.

I started trying to understand these things years before I left Mormonism and really putting in a lot of work to change my relationships. I always made excuses for the church like "It's just culture not the religion" or "people aren't perfect" or whatever until the day I saw this video. It was an anvil on the shelf. I told everyone about it and how upset it made me. It was a few weeks after that when I discovered the essays, and that was the end for me.

https://www.mormonchannel.org/watch/ser ... never-know
Did you see what was on her to do list?

Fix drawer pull.
Sew scout patches.
Delete FB account.
Dinner to Carraways. (The tattooed Mormon)

Ha ha ha ha ha.

That was the worst example of time management I've ever seen. Chaos and lack of adult decisions ruined her night. OMG!

Thanks for sharing that GS!
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga

“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg

Wonderment
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Re: Brainstorm - Psychological Damage

Post by Wonderment » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:37 pm

You know the family type well. Mother and father in laws are controlling, overbearing, and host Sunday dinner every week followed by home study church and a testimony meeting. All nearby family members are expected to attend. The wife (their daughter) feels obligated to attend and pressures the husband to not complain and swallow the meatloaf without expressing distaste. He complies out of fear she will withhold sex another week and he's already feeling guilty for looking at porn. The wife feels tremendous pressure to please everyone including her TBM parents while raising kids in the gospel,keeping a clean house, and being the best damned ministering sister the 6th ward has ever seen. She's exhausted. He's exhausted. Yet the routine continues week after week. Meatloaf after meatloaf. Enmeshed in the grind of Mormon culture, exceedingly high expectations, and the authorized polyester pattern.
Thank you, RR, for starting this thread -- it's very helpful to read all the varied viewpoints.

For me, the top four are: shame, guilt, perfectionism, and extremely low self-esteem. Never good enough, never good enough, never good enough. That's the mantra drilled into one's brain -- not only by COJCOLDS, but by all fundamentalist high-demand churches. - Wndr.

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glass shelf
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Re: Brainstorm - Psychological Damage

Post by glass shelf » Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:53 am

Red Ryder wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:06 pm
glass shelf wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:14 pm
Alas-
I think all of these things can be so entertwined that it's really hard to separate them out, so thanks for adding your thoughts.

Basically, for me, it boiled down to the fact that I was supposed to be some kind of peacemaking doormat with no personal needs who put everyone first. Enough years of that, and you're headed for a mental breakdown for sure.

I started trying to understand these things years before I left Mormonism and really putting in a lot of work to change my relationships. I always made excuses for the church like "It's just culture not the religion" or "people aren't perfect" or whatever until the day I saw this video. It was an anvil on the shelf. I told everyone about it and how upset it made me. It was a few weeks after that when I discovered the essays, and that was the end for me.

https://www.mormonchannel.org/watch/ser ... never-know
Did you see what was on her to do list?

Fix drawer pull.
Sew scout patches.
Delete FB account.
Dinner to Carraways. (The tattooed Mormon)

Ha ha ha ha ha.

That was the worst example of time management I've ever seen. Chaos and lack of adult decisions ruined her night. OMG!

Thanks for sharing that GS!
Yes, her list was silly, but it was the guilt and boundary issues that stuck out to me--grown adult sis who has to have her bring lunch, random person feeling like she needed to just drop of her kid, covering for her kids' science fair issue, having to make dinner for grown adults who knew they had a baby on the way, etc. She wasn't able to keep a personal commitment that was important to her. Instead of getting the message that she was able to say no to other people and be in charge of her own time, she got a ridiculous quote by a prophet that was supposed to make it all better.

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