John Larsen on leaving the church but not leaving it alone

[Hagoth]

This is an amazing and powerful talk from the Phoenix Sunstone symposium:

https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/sunsto ... -it-alone/

I would love to hear your reactions from different places in your faith transition.

[jfro18]

I listened to this a few weeks ago when walking the dog... it's weird to me.

I like John Larsen's Mormon Expressions podcasts - I came across them pretty early after finding the CES Letter (and a while before I found NOM), so they were great to give more background and context to the church issues.

It's just hard for me to reconcile those podcasts with John now, although I can see that with time maybe you get through the anger at the church and then want to find a better way to co-exist.

So for me at my stage in the faith journey, I think John is being too kind... but I also realize there's a lot of value in what he's saying. It just doesn't seem like a two way street for me when the church is out there telling the people you love that those who leave are 'spiritually bankrupt,' 'snake oil salesmen,' and that you'll be separated from those you love for eternity.

[MerrieMiss]

I just happened to finish listening to this one this morning.

I really liked it. About three quarters of the way through, I thought it had the rhythm of a well-done sacrament talk, and unlike so many sacrament talks, it was uplifting.

A few things I’ll comment on:

• Atheism is for the privileged. I completely agree with this. I think sometimes in our hurt and desire for people to give up religion (for those who no longer identify as religious or believing in god) we forget that there is value in religion. Huge, huge value. If it wasn’t valuable, we wouldn’t have evolved with it. It reminds me of something I remember Joseph Campbell saying, and I’ll paraphrase how I remember it because I don’t want to look it up: The problem with religion in the modern age is that we need an updated myth and we haven’t found one yet.

• I completely agree about “The Church” only being an idea in our heads; reminds me of the ideas of Yuval Harari. Given that, I also believe the church only has as much power as we give it, and it certainly is in our best interest not to play the game.

• The idea that we live on the backs of people and events we never experienced and mostly don’t even know about is interesting. I was thinking that this week while finally getting around to reading Sapiens and contemplating the 100,000 years of humans who made me who I am as well as created the world I live in today. I can’t even comprehend all of the people’s lives who did this.

• John touched on this in his interview with Dehlin too – priestcraft. There’s this idea in Mormonism that if someone/organization needs money, it’s priestcraft. It really irritated when after listening to his first Mormon-ish podcasts my husband said it rubbed him the wrong way that Dehlin and Reel were asking for support.

• 98% of past church beliefs, publications, quotes are forgotten. I happened to be in our chapel’s library a couple weeks ago and there’s a big box of items to be purged because we have new and updated prophetic material – Ensigns from the nineties, DVDs of conference talks, seminary manuals, even an old blue hymnal (I rescued that!). As I was looking through the box I thought it was no wonder we don’t know our history – it disappears and is replaced by new correlated material. I always find it odd that today's youth see the church so differently than I remember from my youth watching HInckley. But it shouldn't surprise me - I remember a YW teacher nreminiscing about David O. McKay, and I honestly could not understand what she was talking about. Mormonism moves on.(As much as they would like to pretend otherwise.)

• Packer’s quote: Not everything that’s true is useful. I’ve often thought this gets a bad rap in the exmormon realm. I think it is absolutely true. A lot of exmos are angry when their TBM spouse says they would have never married them had they not been TBM at the time, an absolutely true statement. I wouldn’t have married my husband had I not been Mormon; another true statement. But absolutely not useful. Exmormons really do lack nuance about things, just as TBMs do.

• We may find the outer world enchanting and interesting (cool religion in the far east!), while hating our own culture in Payson. There’s a fantasized glow we like to give others that I don’t think we allow ourselves. There really are some beautiful aspects of Mormonism. I’ve always thought Wallace Stegner captured some of them.

• Lack of community in exmormonism. I know the response is to go find a meetup, join rotary, get involved with your schools. But religion provides community in the best overall way than any secular organization I have ever found. It provides community for the whole family. There’s a group for mom, a place for the kids, youth group for teens, other men to gather with, and a place for grandma and grandpa too. The Scrabble Meetup may be a place to meet friends with a common interest, but it doesn’t involve the whole family. It doesn’t even necessarily join people from different socioeconomic or educational backgrounds. Robert Putnam has written about this and I really think this is a problem of the modern and secular world (to go back to the Joseph Campbell idea above). This was something that really tore me up a few years back.

• People matter. At the end of the day it’s about the people. I think this is something TBMs and exmormons can get behind if we can leave the corporation and our own anger behind.

• Mormonism as an identity. Of course it is. I’ll never be able to leave it behind. It shaped who I am. To reject it entirely it to reject a part of myself. I can decide I don’t believe in it and I can change parts of myself, but it was a part of my growth, for better or worse. There are parts of it that are okay to keep and accept.

Anyway, I enjoyed the podcast. I've been turning so many of these thoughts in my head recently it was nice to hear them talked about. I’ve been mentally out for years and am still in the closet with my in-laws, so maybe I’ll hit the hot and angry phase again in the future. However, I really think in some ways I’ve moved past it. I’d really love to embrace the kind of world Larsen talked about here. I don’t know if it is possible, but I’d really love to give it a try.

Sorry, that was way longer than I intended.

[Hagoth]

Sorry, that was way longer than I intended.

But it was relevant and action-packed!

Five years ago I would have been very annoyed with John's talk, but now I found it quite moving and thought provoking. I have been appreciating and enjoying some of the people from my ward in ways that I couldn't before. I will not discuss religion with them because, even though I understand how they see the world, I have to accept that they don't have the slightest clue of what it's like to be out here looking in. I know they believer wacky sh!t, but I used to believe it too. I know they think I've gone over the deep end, but so what?

I feel like I'm going through another life change that is similar to a faith crisis, but it's a soft, happy, friendly version of it. I'm beginning to finally let go of a lot of things that seemed so important to me and turn my attention to new, bigger things. I know what it's like to have the rug pulled out from under you, but this is more like the rug is slowly dissolving away and there's a sheet of glass under it with the entire universe on the other side. It's a mental freedom that I could never have found in the church.

[slavereeno]

I am envious of those that can get back to a place where they don't dislike Mormonism as much as I dislike it right now. I am currently seeing all the damage that it has caused (and continues to cause), the demands it makes, the division it creates. If it was just a simple community or faith story that encourage individual spirituality I feel like I could re-embrace it.

To me Mormonism still feels like an emotionally manipulative and abusive overlord, filled with useless demands and false security.

[Corsair]

Anyway, I enjoyed the podcast. I've been turning so many of these thoughts in my head recently it was nice to hear them talked about. I’ve been mentally out for years and am still in the closet with my in-laws, so maybe I’ll hit the hot and angry phase again in the future. However, I really think in some ways I’ve moved past it. I’d really love to embrace the kind of world Larsen talked about here. I don’t know if it is possible, but I’d really love to give it a try.

John has admitted that he disagrees with many things his past self said. I am impressed by his open acknowledgement that he has changed and is not hoping that the LDS church necessarily disappears. Instead, he has identified that the way to move forward as a civilization is to be kind to each other and maybe organized religion and even the LDS church might have a role to play in this.

Sorry, that was way longer than I intended.

We will always appreciate excellent writing

[dogbite]

• Lack of community in exmormonism. I know the response is to go find a meetup, join rotary, get involved with your schools. But religion provides community in the best overall way than any secular organization I have ever found. It provides community for the whole family. There’s a group for mom, a place for the kids, youth group for teens, other men to gather with, and a place for grandma and grandpa too. The Scrabble Meetup may be a place to meet friends with a common interest, but it doesn’t involve the whole family. It doesn’t even necessarily join people from different socioeconomic or educational backgrounds. Robert Putnam has written about this and I really think this is a problem of the modern and secular world (to go back to the Joseph Campbell idea above). This was something that really tore me up a few years back.

I've said it before but Mormonism was never my community even when I was active. My ward wasn't my friend group. I've always been a big time reader and so very few mormons read anything outside of their religion. I like to think about and discuss big ideas but Mormons always fall back on their pat answers for those things. I see shades of gray and Mormonism teaches Black and White thinking.

I have no interest in sports. I dont want to golfing with the quorum. I dont discuss sports as casual conversation.

Part of my exit was that Mormonism and its most common denizens wasn't a place that I fit among.

Sadly many older mormons have never experienced a deeper community than mormonism itself, say those over 45?

I think this is changing in the last 15 years.with ubiquitous internet and the rise of smartphones. People no longer lose contact with their friends from youth. It's easy to be part of extended communities on particular items or topics of interest. People 40 and younger are more bound outside of mormonism than in it anymore I think.

Prior to the internet, Mormonism had captive communities in many ways. Now mormonism has to compete and it really can't. There is a common complaint about lack of attendance or interest at Mormon events now. The weak community that Mormonism provided can't stand up to the stronger community people can have trivially in modern society.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

Greg Larsen is always humorous and entertaining. He always finds a way to piss off both sides of the field which is the mark of speaking some hard truths. I enjoyed his talk, especially the aspect of just not playing the game and not feeding the accepted narrative.

It also seems similar to the time Lindsay Hansen Park talked about no longer laying the bricks that build walls (as she told the story of the FLDS laborers building the wall around the leader compound).

[Newme]

My 1st thought after hearing that familiar phrase of not being able to leave the church alone - is “How can you when it is everywhere?” as it is in many parts of Utah. I have to remind myself that no place is perfect (I grew up by gangs, drugs etc) & I’ve chosen this place for the positives.

This talk seemed to be a mature, ideal way of “taking the higher road.” Although I haven’t heard his previous stuff, I get the impression he swung far to one side before and is now trying to balance it out by swinging the other way. The hurt from being shunned or otherwise mistreated for questioning evil in Mormonism, is still valid and present. But I feel asked to take a step back & realize it’s like a game. Only, some people think the game is life/death serious - & some have realized in the end, it doesn’t matter. What matters is people & creating good relationships through give & take.

When you’re raised in, or lived, Mormonism so intensely for so long, it becomes part of you, even when you leave it mentally etc. The support system in Mormonism can be awesome - with boundaries & lowering expectations - appreciating relating on less common ground than before - but at least there’s some.

Take the best, leave the rest.

[nibbler]

• Packer’s quote: Not everything that’s true is useful. I’ve often thought this gets a bad rap in the exmormon realm. I think it is absolutely true.

I could be completely wrong here, but I don't think the issue is the validity of the statement. I think people take issue because they feel church leaders put themselves in the position to determine what is and is not useful truth for others.

It's one thing to tell someone that doesn't have enough food for groceries, "The speed of light is 299,792,458 m/s." A truth that is not very useful to the situation. It's another thing entirely to say, "That issue you are super concerned about isn't an important issue" or, "If people knew about this information it might undermine my authority. I better use my authority to suppress that information."

[Newme]

• Packer’s quote: Not everything that’s true is useful. I’ve often thought this gets a bad rap in the exmormon realm. I think it is absolutely true.

I could be completely wrong here, but I don't think the issue is the validity of the statement. I think people take issue because they feel church leaders put themselves in the position to determine what is and is not useful truth for others.

It's one thing to tell someone that doesn't have enough food for groceries, "The speed of light is 299,792,458 m/s." A truth that is not very useful to the situation. It's another thing entirely to say, "That issue you are super concerned about isn't an important issue" or, "If people knew about this information it might undermine my authority. I better use my authority to suppress that information."

Good points.
When church leaders suggest legitimate concerns are unimportant, or that loyalty to church leaders is more important than loyalty to moral truths - that tends to be unethical. And too often, our TBM loved ones follow the same disrespect.

In the context of the OP talk, that quote reminded me that relationships are more important than speaking truth that can hurt. This is something I really need to work on. There’s a time to speak truth & let the chips fall where they may - and there’s a time to focus only on truth that strengthens relationships. As someone on the old NOM quoted a film, “You can’t handle the truth!” - Maybe there are truths that are tough to take for us all - just different types.

When the s- -t hits the fan, and generally, relationships are so important. Many of us may wish we could go to a church that believes as we do, but the reality for many is that there is no single group that is both organized and believes exactly the same as we do. So, I suppose if we want what’s most important, we need to be more flexible, understanding & forgiving of others who are where we were before.

[MerrieMiss]

I feel like I'm going through another life change that is similar to a faith crisis, but it's a soft, happy, friendly version of it. I'm beginning to finally let go of a lot of things that seemed so important to me and turn my attention to new, bigger things. I know what it's like to have the rug pulled out from under you, but this is more like the rug is slowly dissolving away and there's a sheet of glass under it with the entire universe on the other side. It's a mental freedom that I could never have found in the church.

That sounds like a beautiful place to be; I've felt a similar move toward something like that, although it still seems somewhat hazy, but I can still sense that it's the direction I'm going.Using Fowler Stages to talk about it, I would say stage four is an important place to be, but it isn't a healthy landing place. Unfortunately too many of us get stuck there. I'd really like to move on, and I'm trying.

One thing I didn't mention is the part about anger. It really is toxic. There's a time and a place for it, to be sure, but a lot of us who leave the church get stuck being angry for way too long. It isn't an exmo problem as much as a cultural problem. Outrage sells. I think it was stepping back and seeing it as a cultural phenomenon has helped me dial it back a bit. That, and I'm just tired.

John has admitted that he disagrees with many things his past self said. I am impressed by his open acknowledgement that he has changed and is not hoping that the LDS church necessarily disappears. Instead, he has identified that the way to move forward as a civilization is to be kind to each other and maybe organized religion and even the LDS church might have a role to play in this.

It is impressive to see someone change their mind and admit it. It is also something not commonly aspired to. I appreciate it.

Sorry, that was way longer than I intended.

We will always appreciate excellent writing

Aww, you're kind.

This talk seemed to be a mature, ideal way of “taking the higher road.” Although I haven’t heard his previous stuff, I get the impression he swung far to one side before and is now trying to balance it out by swinging the other way. The hurt from being shunned or otherwise mistreated for questioning evil in Mormonism, is still valid and present. But I feel asked to take a step back & realize it’s like a game. Only, some people think the game is life/death serious - & some have realized in the end, it doesn’t matter. What matters is people & creating good relationships through give & take.

When you’re raised in, or lived, Mormonism so intensely for so long, it becomes part of you, even when you leave it mentally etc. The support system in Mormonism can be awesome - with boundaries & lowering expectations - appreciating relating on less common ground than before - but at least there’s some.

Take the best, leave the rest.

I'm not going to lie, I get really tired of "taking the higher road." But I think this goes to what Corsair so often has said: treat it like a hobby. Stop making it so important. It really is only as important as you let it become. And it's really unfortunate some TBMs want to make their hobby more important than relationships, but then, that's not limited to church. People do it all the time with or without the church.

• Packer’s quote: Not everything that’s true is useful. I’ve often thought this gets a bad rap in the exmormon realm. I think it is absolutely true.

I could be completely wrong here, but I don't think the issue is the validity of the statement. I think people take issue because they feel church leaders put themselves in the position to determine what is and is not useful truth for others. It's one thing to tell someone that doesn't have enough food for groceries, "The speed of light is 299,792,458 m/s." A truth that is not very useful to the situation. It's another thing entirely to say, "That issue you are super concerned about isn't an important issue" or, "If people knew about this information it might undermine my authority. I better use my authority to suppress that information."

I completely agree with that description of how the church uses it. However, it seems a lot of people who leave the church swing the other way entirely with the idea that everything that is true should be out there and is valuable simply because it is true, and I don't think that's the case. It comes up every year with exmos worrying about how to handle Christmas and Santa. You also see it when they bombard their family and friends with facts/truth about the church and damage relationships. "But I just told them the truth!" Yes, and it wasn't very useful, was it?

In the context of the OP talk, that quote reminded me that relationships are more important than speaking truth that can hurt. This is something I really need to work on. There’s a time to speak truth & let the chips fall where they may - and there’s a time to focus only on truth that strengthens relationships. As someone on the old NOM quoted a film, “You can’t handle the truth!” - Maybe there are truths that are tough to take for us all - just different types.

Yes, and I guess that's what I'm getting at. There's a tendency to go the other way entirely with the idea that TRUTH is necessary at all costs, and I just don't think that's a very nuanced idea.

It's just hard for me to reconcile those podcasts with John now, although I can see that with time maybe you get through the anger at the church and then want to find a better way to co-exist.

I am envious of those that can get back to a place where they don't dislike Mormonism as much as I dislike it right now. I am currently seeing all the damage that it has caused (and continues to cause), the demands it makes, the division it creates. If it was just a simple community or faith story that encourage individual spirituality I feel like I could re-embrace it.

To me Mormonism still feels like an emotionally manipulative and abusive overlord, filled with useless demands and false security.

I won't say time heals all wounds, but wounds take time to heal. Being angry is a part of it. It's just not a good idea to keep picking at it or it never goes away.

[MerrieMiss]

I've said it before but Mormonism was never my community even when I was active. My ward wasn't my friend group. I've always been a big time reader and so very few mormons read anything outside of their religion. I like to think about and discuss big ideas but Mormons always fall back on their pat answers for those things. I see shades of gray and Mormonism teaches Black and White thinking...
Prior to the internet, Mormonism had captive communities in many ways. Now mormonism has to compete and it really can't. There is a common complaint about lack of attendance or interest at Mormon events now. The weak community that Mormonism provided can't stand up to the stronger community people can have trivially in modern society.

I don't think I really disagree with you that much. Mormonism didn't do it for me socially. I guess it was benign as a child, I don't recollect that much, but as I entered my teenage years I was miserable for so many of the reasons you mention. I also think Mormonism made a mistake when it got rid of activities, just when keeping activities and improving them may have helped it. I'm not saying mormonism is the answer and that it works for everyone, but I do think religious institutions provide structure and community in ways that other organizations don’t or can’t. In another post, this was written:

Plus there are studies that suggest the more religious involvement - the worse off - moderation in all good things.

And I think that’s the big problem with Mormonism. There’s too much of it. There’s same problem if you’re JW, an orthodox jew, or the extremely catholic. There’s too much of it, it’s too black and white. It also consumes people – so many Mormons give so much time and money to their church they don’t consider giving any time or money to anything else. Perhaps younger Mormons are different, although if you’re an active thirty year old Mormon who tithes 10%, there’s not a lot of money to give, and you have all Sundays, two days for kids’ activities during the week, and a host of other activities to go to on a weekly and regular basis, it leaves little time for other things (but it does build strong Mormon community!). Fundamentalist religion is damaging.

But that aside, I think religion is uniquely situated to create and foster community when it is not such a fundamentalist mindset. And aside for creating a community of age-related peers (which my previous comment seems to indicate as the primary benefit) I think there are a lot of cross-age benefits, as well as across social, economic, and educational diversity. How often to children get to interact in repetitive, positive ways with people over sixty? My totally exmo brother (who hated church) has told me that home teaching with my dad was valuable – he learned to talk to different people, visit people who were sick, and give up a Saturday to help paint an elderly woman’s house. How many of us provide these opportunities in our families? How many lonely older people in our communities lack communication with young people, or anyone at all? A one-time activity is not the same as repetitive communication with a member of the community.

If a person is upper middle class, they may sign themselves and their kids up for clubs or service days. They’ll have the money, know how, and ability for transportation to various activities. But I’d argue a lot of people don’t do that. For people who are middle-class and below, these types of activities are difficult to afford, manage, coordinate, and are not seen as important although I would argue they are extremely important to individual and community well-being. From a WaPo article:

The poor children in “Our Kids” are missing so much more than material wealth. They have few mentors. They’re half as likely as wealthy kids to trust their neighbors. The schools they attend offer fewer sports, and they’re less likely to participate in after-school activities. Even their parents have smaller social networks. Their lives reflect the misfortune of the working-class adults around them, who have lost job prospects and financial stability.

This is a terribly reality for so many people in our communities. And I think the more that the upper middle class puts their kids in special activities and separates themselves from others, and moves to affluent neighborhoods, the more the divide grows. Churches used to be an organization that bridged that gap.

For all that the internet has brought us together (after all, here we all are on NOM!), I think it’s also separated us. We congregate in echo chambers (hello, NOM!), we organize groups for our specific interests (which also happen to separate us by age, education, and socio-economic status) and have abandoned religious and civic organizations that brought different people together.

I’m not saying Mormonism is the solution. But I do think churches are uniquely designed to help reconnect a fractured society. Churches are in decline, but I think if they could reinvent themselves somehow to be relevant, keep the community and skip the heavy dogma, they could survive. Of course, part of the problem with that is that churches have used fear, shame, and guilt to get people to keep coming back. (I’d argue at least some secular organizations do that too.)

[Newme]

But I think this goes to what Corsair so often has said: treat it like a hobby. Stop making it so important. It really is only as important as you let it become. And it's really unfortunate some TBMs want to make their hobby more important than relationships, but then, that's not limited to church. People do it all the time with or without the church.

I like that - treating church like a hobby.

Or it could be like fanatic sports fans, who are soooooooo loyal to “their” team, teams that consist of being traded based on finances etc. “Go Mormons!” Some are cheer leaders... “If we can’t beat ‘em nobody - we know in our little circle - can!” And their team comes first...

[moksha]

One thing that worries me about my church is that the best and brightest keep leaving. How are things ever going to get better with this happening?