NOM

My husband has been working a lot from home in the evenings. Sometimes I'll put on a movie so I can sit next to him while he works until I fall asleep. Last night I put on the first episode of Leah Remini's film on Scientology. The only thing he said when it was over: "Why did you watch that?" I shrugged my shoulders. "I thought it was interesting." I'll do the same with the other episodes.

I haven't come out to him about my disbelief in the church, so this is my way of putting it out there slowly. Too slowly, perhaps. At this point, I'm just planting seeds. We'll see where it goes.

I haven't watched it, but I read an article about it. There are certainly some uncomfortable parallels. I'm glad she got out.

Way to go on planting seeds.

DW was watching this tonight. We watched Going Clear about a year ago together. She is seeing just a few similarities with the COJCOLDS and mentioned that. It is a start I guess.

That is some crazy stuff though. It makes mormonism seem verifiable normal. Haha!

So what would it take for there be a Mormon Leah Remini?

I know as far as the fame part goes, this would have to be an Osmond or maybe a high profile Romney or maybe a Marriott heir (if there is such).

But is Mormonism wacko enough to deserve it's own expose'? Certainly the history could be exposed for all of the issues and lies (and of course the scandalous sex would sell). Throw in all the money and power while GA's tell young widows to give their money to Mormonism before even feeding the kids, and you could have something there, I would think.

So it's easy to find some parallels and I know we've all heard what we might call horror stories, but love bombing probably wouldn't get confused with stalking or intimidation by anyone.

Definitely there has been ecclesiastical abuse covered up and then there are the excommunications of those that doubt or question.

Anything more than that?

Mormonism is bigger, has more clout and more money, but hey, the bigger they are the harder they fall.

Vlad the emailer wrote:So what would it take for there be a Mormon Leah Remini?

I know as far as the fame part goes, this would have to be an Osmond or maybe a high profile Romney or maybe a Marriott heir (if there is such).

But is Mormonism wacko enough to deserve it's own expose'? Certainly the history could be exposed for all of the issues and lies (and of course the scandalous sex would sell). Throw in all the money and power while GA's tell young widows to give their money to Mormonism before even feeding the kids, and you could have something there, I would think.

So it's easy to find some parallels and I know we've all heard what we might call horror stories, but love bombing probably wouldn't get confused with stalking or intimidation by anyone.

Definitely there has been ecclesiastical abuse covered up and then there are the excommunications of those that doubt or question.

Anything more than that?

Mormonism is bigger, has more clout and more money, but hey, the bigger they are the harder they fall.

David Archuleta, get him and it all falls down!

My largely TBM wife watched the first Leah Remini episode last night on DVR and stopped me in the hallway of our home this morning with a look of disbelief and asked me how in the world the Scientology members could possibly think and do the things they do (shunning, disassociation, etc.) to those who had left the cult. I couldn't believe I was being given such a wonderful opportunity to explain to her our Church's exclusionary and unforgiving culture for those who have fallen away, all the while using the word "Scientology" in place of "our Church". I told her that very often people within organizations like these only treat others with respect and friendship as long as they know that they share their beliefs, but that the relationship, even those that felt like very strong friendships, quickly go away when people perceive you as being an outsider. Hopefully, she'll make the connection to the Church when she sees it happening with people she knows who become disaffected. I know it won't sit well with her because she doesn't qualify her friends by those who do or don't believe as she does...and maybe that'll become a heavy book on her shelf. Fingers crossed.

Vlad the emailer wrote:
But is Mormonism wacko enough to deserve it's own expose'? Certainly the history could be exposed for all of the issues and lies (and of course the scandalous sex would sell). Throw in all the money and power while GA's tell young widows to give their money to Mormonism before even feeding the kids, and you could have something there, I would think.

So it's easy to find some parallels and I know we've all heard what we might call horror stories, but love bombing probably wouldn't get confused with stalking or intimidation by anyone.

Definitely there has been ecclesiastical abuse covered up and then there are the excommunications of those that doubt or question.

Anything more than that?

Mormonism is bigger, has more clout and more money, but hey, the bigger they are the harder they fall.

On the wacko spectrum, I don't think Mormonism makes the cut. Maybe Utah/BY/theocracy Mormonism, but the church has taken great pains to be mainstream, and although people do shun family members, it isn't a command from the church. And some leaders do crazy things, but again, it isn't the "church." Mormonism is far more cultural and passive aggressive. And nice. Mormons are so nice! (Isn't that how most people describe Mormons? Naive, but nice!)

So we’ve watched the first four episodes and I was beginning to get a little disappointed. My husband never said a word about them, and appeared to me he wasn’t even paying attention. Anyhow, last week he suggested we watch the fifth episode (I was very surprised) so we did, and after it we had a really great conversation.

It began with talking about the contracts signed. Does a person lack integrity when they leave Scientology because they signed a contract? Does a teenager have the capacity to make a lifelong (or billion years, if you believe that kind of thing) contract? Should they stay even if they think Scientology is a fraud or they don’t believe in it? Does a person who leaves Scientology display integrity by leaving and breaking that contract? We talked about ethics vs. morals. We talked about different people throughout history who made decisions based on their own moral compass instead of the laws or contracts that bound them. We even lightened the mood by talking about the ethics seminar from The Office. And a few days later, he made a connection to our Scientology conversation and something else that was going on - without me ever bringing it up.

This is why I wanted to watch the series. My husband was really thinking about this stuff. It was an opening to talk about some really basic issues without me bringing up the church. I never brought up Mormonism so he never got on the defensive. Topics like this are what I thought about for years before I decided the church isn’t true. It’s the kind of stuff I’d discuss with my dad as a kid, but my husband’s family never had those kinds of discussions.

My husband thinks I lack integrity because I’m not keeping my covenants, most specifically, wearing my garments. I’m hoping that as we have these kinds of discussions more, he’ll make some connections to things both relating and not relating to Mormonism. Hopefully, as our oldest nears baptism, he can see that it’s ridiculous to bind an eight-year old to a contract/covenant they’re expected to keep their entire life. I’m hoping that he’ll see that by ditching the garments, I’m keeping my integrity intact. Even if he doesn’t agree with me, hopefully he can at least see where I’m coming from.

I'm glad to hear your husband is open to thinking about these kinds of things. I hope he continues to be open with you.

I totally agree that the idea of an eternal contract entered into as an eight year old is ridiculous. It's about as ridiculous as committing someone you just met to baptism, but the church likes that too. I remember going through the temple the first time and being uncomfortable with the commitments demanded, and the thing that got me to relax was that it was basically the same commitment as baptism and I had already entered the baptismal covenant, so why not? So, adult me commits to the temple covenants because 8 year old me committed to baptismal covenants. And 8 year old me committed without all the information and under great social pressure. Seems legit.

Baby steps! That is awesome that he is talking and hopefully over time he will make even more connections. I think some shelves have to slowly erode instead of breaking outright.

I thought about this thread the other night when I watched the episode about the forced abortions. So heartbreaking. And just so f-ed up. I guess we could have been born into worse religions that Mormonism.

But is Mormonism wacko enough to deserve it's own expose'

Are you kidding? Always amazes me when I see people arguing Mormonism isn't that crazy. We go into temples and swear allegiance to the church and promise them all our stuff under threat of death!! We used to actually mime the deaths. We then are told we can't tell anyone we just did that or we pay the price. Temple worship alone puts Mormonism towards the top of the religious crazy food chain.

Giant Steps wrote:

But is Mormonism wacko enough to deserve it's own expose'

Are you kidding? Always amazes me when I see people arguing Mormonism isn't that crazy. We go into temples and swear allegiance to the church and promise them all our stuff under threat of death!! We used to actually mime the deaths. We then are told we can't tell anyone we just did that or we pay the price. Temple worship alone puts Mormonism towards the top of the religious crazy food chain.

True enough. The temple is definitely the high point of our crazy, especially, as you say, when it included mimicking suicide as the penalty for spilling the sacred beans.

We don't have anyone beating people up, like Scientology apparently has, but even though we don't have a "sea org" prison like theirs, the mission is our version and indeed you are an unpaid and are not only under mountains of rules, you are basically forbidden to leave.

That's why I put that in the form of a question. To see what posters came up with to answer it. I do think there is enough crazy, if presented correctly, but again, we need that celebrity person people will recognize and be willing to listen to. That and the fact that the shunning isn't nearly as bad (usually) and is cultural, but not official, as someone pointed out above.

So, adult me commits to the temple covenants because 8 year old me committed to baptismal covenants. And 8 year old me committed without all the information and under great social pressure.

The eight year old commitment thing is definitely crazy. Monson tells a story of not understanding fire (he started one in the grass) at eight, yet he was able to make eternal covenants at the same age??? The age of accountability concept makes sense. But at 8 years old? Ridiculous. It should be 18.

And don't forget missions. Where 18 yr olds work 12 hour days with basically no break and no freedom and get really crappy health care and consistent guilt trips. Not all mission experiences are bad, some can be really good for a young man. But when they are bad they are psychologically paralyzing and can trigger PTSD for several years after.

MerrieMiss,

This maybe a good opportunity to talk about the church culture with your DH. You can talk about church culture in a back handed way. Maybe something like this:

"You know how often do we say that someone leaves the church because the are 'offended.' I heard that *insert name here* had issues with the church doctrine and that is why the left. Are we treating them like the people in Scientology treat themselves? Do we stop being friend with people when they stop going to church?"

While I agree the church is all kind of crazy, I still don’t think it reaches the level of crazy as Scientology. No one is going to produce a documentary that can’t get ratings. How do you get ratings? Sensationalism. Scientology will beat out contemporary Mormonism every time. The only exception I can think of is if a Q15 left and did a tell all.

The temple makes you covenant all you have, but when was the last time anyone actually had to give all they had? How many TBMs would be 100% okay with signing away their bank accounts, house, car, retirement, and letting it be redistributed? A mostly US-Republican membership would not be okay with that, even if it was to the “church.” (I know many TBMs who insist on a reimbursement check for one egg they used to make brownies for Standard’s Night – I have a difficult time believing they’d sign over their 401k but not give $0.15.) When was the last time anyone was asked to give up their spouse? And while priesthood blessings in time of sickness are promoted, the church hasn’t made an official declaration to prohibit saving medical procedures (JWs). The church doesn’t even say birth control is bad anymore and abortion is okay in certain circumstances – a very liberal position in the US among religious fundamentalists. The mission is pretty bad, but it's only two years (not a billion!) and no one signs a contract - you can go home any time you want and the church officially says we should be kind to those who do so.

Some members are crazy but most of it can be brushed off as member culture, rogue leadership, or fanaticism. Mormonism is Scientology Lite. I just don’t see this being as big of a deal to the average viewer. It’s a big deal to us, but it's not sensational.

And as an aside, I can’t say how many times I wish the church would get all crazy like this. My husband would leave in a heartbeat.

Woops, this is the thread I meant to post this in.

My believing Mormon wife and I have been watching Leah Remini: Scientology and the Aftermath, so I hope you don't mind me brining up this old thread.

My wife had mentioned months ago she'd be interested, so I sheepishly brought it up to see if she was still interested, and she was. It's such a great series. My wife said she could sit there for hours watching it. Scientology is the proverbial train wreck you can't look away from.

That being said, I gotta admit, I'd hoped she'd catch some of the parallels between Scientology and Mormonism, but alas, Scientology is so off the charts that I think it's very easy for a believer to think there is no comparison. Maybe if the wife and I could find something interesting about the JWs, it might help my wife see some of the cultiness of the Iglesia Mormona. I think JW-ism also out-weirds Mormonism, but it's a much closer cousin than Scientology.

Anybody have any follow up after watching the series with a loved believer?

A-BoM, el Diablo

Maybe it will be a good segue into watching Under the Banner of Heaven later this month.