Changes in the church

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2bizE
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Changes in the church

Post by 2bizE » Tue May 07, 2019 7:57 am

Am I the only one or does the latest temple changes seem like just another check box being filled in the church’s effort to reduce its level in the Cult-A$$hole scale? This feels like the church has been doing research/surveys about what people hate about the church.
1) Mormon name is a bad brand
2) Sexism
3) culty
4) exclusionary
5) rife with sexual predators
~2bizE

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jfro18
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Re: Changes in the church

Post by jfro18 » Tue May 07, 2019 8:14 am

They are clearly trying to mainstream Mormonism - just look at how Russell Nelson and the entire gang of old men ran to the Pope to have that meeting... they want SO badly to be seen as "one of the guys" in Christianity.

So they're slowly but surely removing the things that people have talked about for decades as being nonsensical.

The question is how fast they'll continue to do it or if they'll pause for a while... it can't be long before coffee is allowed and even possibly making the $#%$# garments optional when outside of the temple.

I hate this church because most of the good changes are coming after we've all had to deal with them to some degree for our lifetimes and the best ones will likely be after we're too old and family is set in their ways to actually enjoy the changes.

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Red Ryder
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Re: Changes in the church

Post by Red Ryder » Tue May 07, 2019 8:53 am

jfro18 wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 8:14 am
I hate this church because most of the good changes are coming after we've all had to deal with them to some degree for our lifetimes and the best ones will likely be after we're too old and family is set in their ways to actually enjoy the changes.
I'm going to disagree here. I've been in this mess for nearly 15 years now and it's been slow to change but I'm noticing it's getting faster.

15 years ago nothing significant was happening.
10 years ago a few books by Bushman etc.
7 years ago a few essays released.
5 years ago more essays, doubt talks, etc.
3 years ago more women can pray
1 year ago 2 hour church blah blah blah
Today, temple restrictions lightened.
Next year, garments
Two years from now....

The times are changing and they have to move fast. The survival of the church is only one generation deep. The next generation of members isn't going to give back any gains.

It's mainstream or die.

Or my other theory is RMN is just building his historical legacy! What an exciting time he's made in the church! Isn't he awesome????

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jfro18
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Re: Changes in the church

Post by jfro18 » Tue May 07, 2019 8:58 am

Red Ryder wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 8:53 am
It's mainstream or die.

Or my other theory is RMN is just building his historical legacy! What an exciting time he's made in the church! Isn't he awesome????
I hope you're right. If RMN gets rid of garments I'll sing his praises for a few days at least. Of course I wonder if DW would just keep wearing them if they do the whole "up to you and God" thing like with birth control.

Either way... I hope you're right but I just don't see it all happening so quickly. This was a necessary step for them to be ready for when USA/Canada require gay weddings of tax exempt orgs and I am pretty sure that's going to happen when Democrats control all 3 branches again.

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slavereeno
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Re: Changes in the church

Post by slavereeno » Tue May 07, 2019 9:23 am

jfro18 wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 8:14 am
I hate this church because most of the good changes are coming after we've all had to deal with them to some degree for our lifetimes and the best ones will likely be after we're too old and family is set in their ways to actually enjoy the changes.
Yes this. I get impatient and feeling like my life is slipping by stuck in the rut of middle way Mormonism.

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Corsair
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Re: Changes in the church

Post by Corsair » Tue May 07, 2019 9:42 am

So we might get coffee and normal underpants. I doubt that tithing is going away and I see no sign that temples are going away. The trajectory looks like Protestantism plus temples. I eagerly await the doctrinal pronouncement that establishes why this remains the One True Church despite looking very little like the peculiar people we were ordered to be back in the 1970s.

I had a great-grandfather born in 1889 and I knew him quite well before he passed away at age 96. He was old enough to still want to wear wrist and ankle length garments, but he still drank coffee because he beame an adult before Heber J. Grant took away the glorious juice of the holy bean. My great-grandfather would have a difficult time recognizing the trajectory of this church, but I actually expect that he would fall in line with whatever Rusell Nelson revealed next.

I can only hope that the arguments and debates among the apostles come to light one of these days. At the same time, I doubt I will care about whatever they are arguing about at that point.

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wtfluff
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Re: Changes in the church

Post by wtfluff » Tue May 07, 2019 9:45 am

jfro18 wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 8:14 am
I hate this church because most of the good changes are coming after we've all had to deal with them to some degree for our lifetimes and the best ones will likely be after we're too old and family is set in their ways to actually enjoy the changes.
I haven't wanted to use the word hate when referring to LD$-Inc. or the old farts running the corporation for a while, but this change has definitely brought the word hate to mind, and the emotions too. Probably because it hits so close to home for my recent history.



Red Ryder wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 8:53 am
The times are changing and they have to move fast. The survival of the church is only one generation deep. The next generation of members isn't going to give back any gains.

It's mainstream or die.

Or my other theory is RMN is just building his historical legacy! What an exciting time he's made in the church! Isn't he awesome????
Man I hope you're right Cowboy. (My "hopes" related to LD$-Inc. actually doing good things usually get obliterated, but they have actually made a few positive changes lately...)



jfro18 wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 8:58 am
Either way... I hope you're right but I just don't see it all happening so quickly. This was a necessary step for them to be ready for when USA/Canada require gay weddings of tax exempt orgs and I am pretty sure that's going to happen when Democrats control all 3 branches again.
Wait... Are there actually rumors / rumblings that politicians actually want to make tax exempt organizations obey the law when it comes to weddings?
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

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jfro18
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Re: Changes in the church

Post by jfro18 » Tue May 07, 2019 9:55 am

wtfluff wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 9:45 am
jfro18 wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 8:58 am
Either way... I hope you're right but I just don't see it all happening so quickly. This was a necessary step for them to be ready for when USA/Canada require gay weddings of tax exempt orgs and I am pretty sure that's going to happen when Democrats control all 3 branches again.
Wait... Are there actually rumors / rumblings that politicians actually want to make tax exempt organizations obey the law when it comes to weddings?
There are definitely pushes being made from the left that organizations that do not acknowledge same-sex marriages should not be tax exempt.

I don't believe there is any legislation or anything, but it is a rumbling that is going to swell once Democrats are in a better position to do something about it.

I could be wrong, but we've been hearing for a few years now that the Mormon church would be taking steps to getting out of marriages altogether to avoid this issue, and we're seeing the beginning of that now.

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Hagoth
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Re: Changes in the church

Post by Hagoth » Tue May 07, 2019 10:00 am

wtfluff wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 9:45 am
Probably because it hits so close to home for my recent history.
Yeah, my first thought was of standing with you outside the temple just a few months ago. It demonstrates how easy it can to fix something so heinous and arbitrary as this that has nothing to do with doctrine. Why didn't they do it decades ago?
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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wtfluff
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Re: Changes in the church

Post by wtfluff » Tue May 07, 2019 10:09 am

jfro18 wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 9:55 am
I could be wrong, but we've been hearing for a few years now that the Mormon church would be taking steps to getting out of marriages altogether to avoid this issue, and we're seeing the beginning of that now.
Yes, I've been hearing, and thinking the same thing.

I was just unaware that there were any political rumblings about it. Just goes to show again, the REAL "best way" to get Elohim to change his mind is to hit his corporation in the pocket book, or change the law, or both. (See LD$-Inc.'s "revelation" to "stop" practicing polygamy.)
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

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jfro18
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Re: Changes in the church

Post by jfro18 » Tue May 07, 2019 10:12 am

wtfluff wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 10:09 am
I was just unaware that there were any political rumblings about it. Just goes to show again, the REAL "best way" to get Elohim to change his mind is to hit his corporation in the pocket book, or change the law, or both. (See LD$-Inc.'s "revelation" to "stop" practicing polygamy.)
I've been really into politics on Twitter the last 7 years now, and this comes up more than you'd think... but it is highly controversial for obvious reasons so it hasn't gone anywhere yet.

But with the way that the LGBT movement has become so much more accepted, I could see this being a step that comes once Democrats control everything again. But probably done in a much softer way to start forcing churches to be more open to LGBTs or lose tax-exempt... otherwise it would never pass. But the church needs to be ready to adjust quickly if that happens.

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Hagoth
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Re: Changes in the church

Post by Hagoth » Tue May 07, 2019 10:14 am

It's like they are actually listening to the whining of people like us and realizing that they might be able to keep more tithing payers if they actually listen to what people want and repackage it as revelation. The major rumors and requests coming out of the liberal/nuance/stage 4 community:

In the last year:
-Fix the temple so women don't covenant to their husband: CHECK
-Undo the November '15 policy: CHECK
-Two hour meeting block: CHECK
-End temple marriage waiting period: CHECK
-Eliminate youth worthiness interviews: Nope, but some progress (change would be admitting that they excommunicated someone for being right)

Other currently high-visibility requests/rumors - next decade?
-Word of wisdom changes (e.g. "hot drinks" means hot enough to burn your esophagus)
-Garments only in temple

Maybe in another 50 years?
-Same sex marriage
-Priesthood for women
-BoM and BoA are inspired fiction
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Not Buying It
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Re: Changes in the church

Post by Not Buying It » Tue May 07, 2019 10:47 am

I can't even begin to tell you how annoying I find it when members gush on Facebook about how wonderful all the changes are. I know this is harsh and unfair, because I used to be one of them, but I can't help thinking "how freaking stupid are you?" The Church was the one who started all this crap in the first place. President Nelson isn't the good guy for making these changes - he's the bad guy who spent decades supporting the way things were before.

I want to be careful with this analogy because I really don't want to offend anyone, but isn't it a sign of an abusive relationship when someone is overjoyed because they are suddenly allowed to do something they should have been able to do all along? And how much credit does an abusive boyfriend deserve when he decides to stop abusing his girlfriend as much? When a controlling husband decides to give his a wife a little freedom, does he really deserve anyone's praise for it?

The Church caused all this pain - it doesn't suddenly become a noble institution when it decides to lessen it. But boy the members are sure eating this up.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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jfro18
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Re: Changes in the church

Post by jfro18 » Tue May 07, 2019 10:52 am

Not Buying It wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 10:47 am

I want to be careful with this analogy because I really don't want to offend anyone, but isn't it a sign of an abusive relationship when someone is overjoyed because they are suddenly allowed to do something they should have been able to do all along? And how much credit does an abusive boyfriend deserve when he decides to stop abusing his girlfriend as much? When a controlling husband decides to give his a wife a little freedom, does he really deserve anyone's praise for it
Yes 100%

It's like thanking the person who is causing you pain because they ease up a bit... instead of constantly beating you down they ease up a bit so you feel thankful the control isn't as much.

And then they want you to thank them and pay them for the privilege of it.

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oliblish
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Re: Changes in the church

Post by oliblish » Tue May 07, 2019 10:55 am

Don't forget that missionaries are now allowed to phone home once a week. Isn't that just crazy that it wasn't allowed before?
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Red Ryder
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Re: Changes in the church

Post by Red Ryder » Tue May 07, 2019 11:41 am

All it takes now is for a few progressive people to set the precedent. The sheep will follow. Tuesday Night Weddings will become the norm.

Please join us on ward temple night to witness the sealings of the Jones, Andersons, and Smiths.

Just like stake baptisms. :lol:
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wtfluff
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Re: Changes in the church

Post by wtfluff » Tue May 07, 2019 4:14 pm

jfro18 wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 10:12 am
wtfluff wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 10:09 am
I was just unaware that there were any political rumblings about it. Just goes to show again, the REAL "best way" to get Elohim to change his mind is to hit his corporation in the pocket book, or change the law, or both. (See LD$-Inc.'s "revelation" to "stop" practicing polygamy.)
I've been really into politics on Twitter the last 7 years now, and this comes up more than you'd think... but it is highly controversial for obvious reasons so it hasn't gone anywhere yet.

But with the way that the LGBT movement has become so much more accepted, I could see this being a step that comes once Democrats control everything again. But probably done in a much softer way to start forcing churches to be more open to LGBTs or lose tax-exempt... otherwise it would never pass. But the church needs to be ready to adjust quickly if that happens.
Yeah, I've never put much thought into this until today...

Logically: Any organization performing marriage ceremonies is doing so as proxy for the government. It only makes sense that said proxy should have to obey the law. Just like a civil clerk cannot deny same sex couples a marriage license because of the law, organizations acting as the government and performing marriage ceremonies should have to do the same.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

IDKSAF -RubinHighlander

You can surrender without a prayer...

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Not Buying It
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Re: Changes in the church

Post by Not Buying It » Wed May 08, 2019 5:33 am

oliblish wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 10:55 am
Don't forget that missionaries are now allowed to phone home once a week. Isn't that just crazy that it wasn't allowed before?
Yep. Imagine that - the Church telling members how often they are allowed to contact a family member. And they still do, it’s just more frequent than it used to be.

What, exactly, makes the Church think it has the right to tell parents how frequently they are allowed to call their own children?
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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A New Name
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Re: Changes in the church

Post by A New Name » Wed May 08, 2019 11:19 am

Corsair wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 9:42 am
So we might get coffee and normal underpants.
I once spilled coffee on my normal underpants, does that count?

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alas
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Re: Changes in the church

Post by alas » Wed May 08, 2019 11:35 am

wtfluff wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 4:14 pm
jfro18 wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 10:12 am
wtfluff wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 10:09 am
I was just unaware that there were any political rumblings about it. Just goes to show again, the REAL "best way" to get Elohim to change his mind is to hit his corporation in the pocket book, or change the law, or both. (See LD$-Inc.'s "revelation" to "stop" practicing polygamy.)
I've been really into politics on Twitter the last 7 years now, and this comes up more than you'd think... but it is highly controversial for obvious reasons so it hasn't gone anywhere yet.

But with the way that the LGBT movement has become so much more accepted, I could see this being a step that comes once Democrats control everything again. But probably done in a much softer way to start forcing churches to be more open to LGBTs or lose tax-exempt... otherwise it would never pass. But the church needs to be ready to adjust quickly if that happens.
Yeah, I've never put much thought into this until today...

Logically: Any organization performing marriage ceremonies is doing so as proxy for the government. It only makes sense that said proxy should have to obey the law. Just like a civil clerk cannot deny same sex couples a marriage license because of the law, organizations acting as the government and performing marriage ceremonies should have to do the same.
The clerk represents the government. The temple sealer does not. He is NOT doing proxy work for the government. He represents the church, and then the government recognizes the marriage. The government could theoretically refuse to recognize the marriage performed by churches and in some countries they require all marriages be performed by the government. But in the US, the government has always agreed to recognize religious marriages as long as they meet legal requirements So, no, religions are not required to follow government rules. Religions have the religious freedom to refuse to marry any one they want to discriminate against. The Supreme Court has upheld this.

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