Is NOM really "middle way" to any extent anymore?

This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
Mackman
Posts: 291
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:03 am
Location: Mjchigan

Re: Is NOM really "middle way" to any extent anymore?

Post by Mackman » Sun May 26, 2019 7:41 am

No not really Nom is a transition period , I would walk away in a hot second if my wife would some day "wake up" . I align my beliefs and values much better with Coc. Lds members should not have tests of faith ! They should ask 1 question Do you have faith in Jesus Christ ? Then its up to you to determine what type of faith that is. Just my take for whatever its worth. I believe in the worth of all persons.

User avatar
Corsair
Posts: 3080
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:58 am
Location: Phoenix

Re: Is NOM really "middle way" to any extent anymore?

Post by Corsair » Sun May 26, 2019 10:38 am

Mackman wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 7:41 am
No not really Nom is a transition period , I would walk away in a hot second if my wife would some day "wake up" .
Red Ryder wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 10:49 am
NOM has simply become a place for collaboration among regular posters living in mixed faith marriages. 90% of us here would walk away from church and NOM tomorrow if our spouses woke up to the falsehood of the Mormon Church. I would. Remember RunningMom and Jenny?
Maybe NOM is actually "New Order Mixed-Faith Marriages"? I'll see if that domain name is available. I'm another forum member with a believing wife and devout family. I still attend and even hold a "current" temple recommend, but my ward and stake leadership would be appalled if they actually understood what I am doing with my ward.

User avatar
Newme
Posts: 863
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2016 12:43 pm

Re: Is NOM really "middle way" to any extent anymore?

Post by Newme » Sun May 26, 2019 11:04 am

Corsair wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 10:38 am
Maybe NOM is actually "New Order Mixed-Faith Marriages"? I'll see if that domain name is available. I'm another forum member with a believing wife and devout family. I still attend and even hold a "current" temple recommend, but my ward and stake leadership would be appalled if they actually understood what I am doing with my ward.
You’re planting seeds! ;) :D

Stepping back, to look at the big picture - one way of seeing it...
It’s well established that the lds/Mormon church is a cult with some good and some dysfunctional mind control. To oversimplify it: the church breeds insane thinking which is compounded by peer pressure/herd mentality, but 1 voice of reason can help - even if it’s minimal compared to the herd.

That said, if it becomes toxic - and it can be (leadership roulette) - then I’m out. But as it is, I see more benefits than negatives, as long as I remind my kids (as I did today on the way home from church) of Christlike principles of caring for the poor above giving tithes to the church and of taking the best and leaving the rest. They see that no group is perfect and we need to be respectful of others’ beliefs (even if they seem illogical) while standing up for our own values - though they may they conflict with the church.

I believe there are many more cherry-picking lds than non-cherry pickers. Anyone have any stats on that? :)

User avatar
jfro18
Posts: 2064
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:41 pm

Re: Is NOM really "middle way" to any extent anymore?

Post by jfro18 » Sun May 26, 2019 11:19 am

I think the middle way is where you go when you're either trying to figure things out or have already figured things out but have no other choice.

The thing about Mormonism is that even if it was true, it's not something I want any part of. Why would I want to be in a religion where polygamy is eternal doctrine? Where I would be separated from my non-Mormon family because they didn't jump into it?

From what I've read the middle way seems to be where people go when they discover it doesn't add up but aren't quite ready to walk away. It's like a 'faith crisis purgatory' where you're just stationed there waiting to either walk away entirely or maybe come back into the fold in a more nuanced way.

The only caveat to that (and it's a big one) are people who are forced to go for family reasons. Those people might mentally be fully out but still trying to find a middle way that allows them some mental sanity while they're going in order to appease their spouses/parents/whatever.

I just can't see a true middle way that the person is taking on without pressures forcing that decision, but I concede that's based on my anecdotal evidence in reading/talking to people over the last year.

Mackman
Posts: 291
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:03 am
Location: Mjchigan

Re: Is NOM really "middle way" to any extent anymore?

Post by Mackman » Sun May 26, 2019 12:26 pm

Corsair : Could you elaborate on what you are doing with your ward ? I have been contemplating for a while if I should be the voice of NOM in my branch for those that need to vent. This is something i see as positive and a real reason to still attend other than for my spouse. I just know when my shelf crashed I really could have used someone to talk too as my wife would not even listen. I am convinced others may have the same concerns but are too afraid or just unwilling to go through all the turmoil associated with a faith crisis.

User avatar
Meilingkie
Posts: 403
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 8:40 pm
Location: Tilburg
Contact:

Re: Is NOM really "middle way" to any extent anymore?

Post by Meilingkie » Sun May 26, 2019 1:51 pm

NOM used to be more nuanced some years ago.
I do feel more people are less afraid of the Church as they used to be, though the number of throwaway-accounts on reddit would suggest otherwise.

As such the need for NOM is diminished, however it still fills a niche for those who desire a more safe and cosy ladingzone than reddit provides.
This forum despite it having moved more away from the middle way towards exmormon still provides respite from the storms that somedays rage on reddit.

I’d not call NOM a harbour, I’d call it a roadstead. An anchorage.
"Getting the Mormon out of the Church is easier than getting the Mormon out of the Ex-Mormon"

User avatar
jfro18
Posts: 2064
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:41 pm

Re: Is NOM really "middle way" to any extent anymore?

Post by jfro18 » Sun May 26, 2019 3:03 pm

Meilingkie wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 1:51 pm
NOM used to be more nuanced some years ago.
I do feel more people are less afraid of the Church as they used to be, though the number of throwaway-accounts on reddit would suggest otherwise.
The throwaway accounts on reddit I would almost guarantee have less to do with fear of the church and everything to do with fear of their families finding out.

I can't post church stuff on my normal social media accounts because my sister in law will run to my wife to tell her what im saying... it's insane, but apparently not uncommon.

Mackman
Posts: 291
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:03 am
Location: Mjchigan

Re: Is NOM really "middle way" to any extent anymore?

Post by Mackman » Sun May 26, 2019 3:24 pm

I hear ya jfro18 !!!! I have to be secret about all communications, coffee etc

User avatar
Mormorrisey
Posts: 1403
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:54 pm

Re: Is NOM really "middle way" to any extent anymore?

Post by Mormorrisey » Sun May 26, 2019 6:15 pm

Sorry I'm late to this discussion, just busy, but this is a great thread. In many ways I agree with both RR and alas; I agree with RR that this is a bit of an echo chamber, a softer landing spot for those still kind of stuck in a mixed-faith marriage or for whatever reason. To some extent, I think the nuanced believer has just kind of vanished, for the same reasons RR mentions - I joined the old NOM in 2014/15, and there did seem to be a few more of the middle way folk there, and the discussion was rather lively. But the middle way IS a mirage; if I could walk away, I probably would, like many who did when the new NOM forum appeared. And I do appreciate that this place is WAY less angry than reddit, I just shake my head sometimes when I read the bile that is spilled over there, although there is some interesting discussions too. So this is my home, for the foreseeable future. And thanks to you all for making this such a safe space.

But I also agree with alas, that the church has changed too, in regards to any middle way. It's way more dogmatic and authoritarian as a corporation, way more interested in rooting out cafeteria Mormonism and turning the church into an all or nothing proposition. So while the NOM largely recognizes that the middle way is unsustainable personally, the church doesn't want it either, institutionally. And thus it is the very rare individual who can keep going with that kind of pressure.

And I've given up. Sis M. is a lovely woman, and entirely worth going through the charade for until I die. End of story.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

User avatar
Corsair
Posts: 3080
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:58 am
Location: Phoenix

Re: Is NOM really "middle way" to any extent anymore?

Post by Corsair » Sun May 26, 2019 9:31 pm

Mormorrisey wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 6:15 pm
And I've given up. Sis M. is a lovely woman, and entirely worth going through the charade for until I die. End of story.
I want to give credit to my wife also, but I don't think I have given up. I often think that it's a better comparison with Rorschach in the movie "Watchmen" when he is in prison. I'm not stuck in Mormonism with my wife, she is stuck in here with me.

User avatar
moksha
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:22 am

Re: Is NOM really "middle way" to any extent anymore?

Post by moksha » Mon May 27, 2019 4:27 am

Large Flightless Bird wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 12:19 pm
Those who are aware that their previous belief system was flawed can ponder what is said here and come up with something worthwhile that will help them navigate life.
Sounds like you want to have brunch at the Mormonism Cafeteria and then dinner at the Faith Buffet. Well, I don't blame you. Take a large scoop or a smidgen of Mormonism, add some Buddhist wisdom, a bit of Taoism, some Utilitarianism, a bit of Socratic method, some Shakespeare and Star Trek quotes, a critique of pure reason, and the National Lampoon. You know you like buffets, so go for something that will not only nourish and strengthen your soul - but also tastes good!
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha

User avatar
Mormorrisey
Posts: 1403
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:54 pm

Re: Is NOM really "middle way" to any extent anymore?

Post by Mormorrisey » Mon May 27, 2019 7:47 am

Corsair wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 9:31 pm
Mormorrisey wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 6:15 pm
And I've given up. Sis M. is a lovely woman, and entirely worth going through the charade for until I die. End of story.
I want to give credit to my wife also, but I don't think I have given up. I often think that it's a better comparison with Rorschach in the movie "Watchmen" when he is in prison. I'm not stuck in Mormonism with my wife, she is stuck in here with me.
While I take the Rorschach approach to most of the other Mormons in my life, if I took that approach to Sis M., I would end up like Big Figure during the prison riot. His passing was the most unpleasantly imagined off-camera demises I have ever not seen.

No, my relationship with the missus can best be described as being a disciple to one of those ancient fertility goddesses. I alternatively love, worship, fear and get incredibly frustrated by the goddess, but I would never dream of abandoning my worship of her. It's a fear-induced adrenaline rush to be with her on a daily basis, and it's a ride I never want to end. To further illustrate the balance of our relationship, I have no idea why this wonderful woman chose to spend her life with a dreamy intellectual who can't fix anything, has trouble staying gainfully employed, and is generally useless on a number of levels. I think the only thing I have going for me is that she KNOWS I worship her, and love with all my heart the beings that she has created. I count my lucky stars every day.

So, yeah, that's why I suck it up.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."

User avatar
MalcolmVillager
Posts: 702
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:01 pm

Re: Is NOM really "middle way" to any extent anymore?

Post by MalcolmVillager » Mon May 27, 2019 10:19 am

Great posts everyone! You guys are the heart of my spiritual and deep thoughts world. I am one who partially feels trapped. But also I recognize that I cannot change my stripes. I am Mormon. My family and MorCor community are Mormon.

I have found FB communities that are more active, have larger memberships, and have real faces. That has helped me find new friends IRL and also RL friends who are in those FB groups.

All that said, I have also grown apathetic and bored of the same old conversations.

So I drive by and look in the familiar windows. Most of the time i just keep driving.

User avatar
Not Buying It
Posts: 1308
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 12:29 pm

Re: Is NOM really "middle way" to any extent anymore?

Post by Not Buying It » Tue May 28, 2019 9:21 am

Well, some excellent points on this thread, and it is a point well made that factors outside of NOM may have had more influence on driving away believers than anything any of us have done. But I have to say I miss some of the more believing types that used to frequent NOM. While I was as guilty as anyone of arguing with them and perhaps more guilty than many of driving them away if that is what happened, I felt like they kept me honest. When everyone agrees all the time it is too easy to miss the weaknesses in your ideas and arguments - I miss those voices that would say "well wait a minute...". Too much consensus makes me uncomfortable.

But it's my fault as much as anyone's if those voices didn't feel comfortable or welcome here.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

User avatar
RubinHighlander
Posts: 1906
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 7:20 am
Location: Behind the Zion Curtain

Re: Is NOM really "middle way" to any extent anymore?

Post by RubinHighlander » Tue May 28, 2019 11:49 am

Interesting retrospective here on the evolution of NOM; I like the honesty. I have asked myself why I still stop by here every few days to browse the threads as a postMo. I'm really only dealing with my TBM mom now. I'm pretty sure our house got the foot dusting after my last encounter with the local ministers. I think there are some great minds here that I have come to respect and I enjoy learning more things about the religion I followed for 40+ years and knew so little about. I've watched some really struggles here and the support that was offered. I totally agree that this place offers far more value that xmoredit; there's just too much noise over there.

It was nice to have more opposing voices come in and stir things up; I liked those lively discussions.
“Sir,' I said to the universe, 'I exist.' 'That,' said the universe, 'creates no sense of obligation in me whatsoever.”
--Douglas Adams

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzmYP3PbfXE

User avatar
Newme
Posts: 863
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2016 12:43 pm

Re: Is NOM really "middle way" to any extent anymore?

Post by Newme » Wed May 29, 2019 7:07 am

moksha wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 4:27 am
Large Flightless Bird wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 12:19 pm
Those who are aware that their previous belief system was flawed can ponder what is said here and come up with something worthwhile that will help them navigate life.
Sounds like you want to have brunch at the Mormonism Cafeteria and then dinner at the Faith Buffet. Well, I don't blame you. Take a large scoop or a smidgen of Mormonism, add some Buddhist wisdom, a bit of Taoism, some Utilitarianism, a bit of Socratic method, some Shakespeare and Star Trek quotes, a critique of pure reason, and the National Lampoon. You know you like buffets, so go for something that will not only nourish and strengthen your soul - but also tastes good!
:D Sounds great! I’ll take that - to go! ;)

User avatar
Angel
Posts: 762
Joined: Thu May 31, 2018 8:26 am

Re: Is NOM really "middle way" to any extent anymore?

Post by Angel » Wed May 29, 2019 12:47 pm

I am trying to take the middle way. I am the rebellious wife, with a TBM husband, and mixed faith children.

I Do...
I actively attend church to support family members - go to sacrament meetings and take the sacrament, go to RS and GD classes and comment in class. I do have a testimony in the Savior, in prayer, in generic religious principles - in the Spirit. I do believe in eternal life, believe our spirits existed before we were born, and will continue to exist after we die. I do believe those characters and principles which we hold precious in this life will be carried with us after we die.

I do not...
I do not wear g's, I do not attend the temple, I do not sustain local leaders (I do not raise my hand to sustain the prophet or apostles), I do not believe the LDs church to be the "one and only true church", or the prophet to be the "one and only" leader led by God. I do not confine myself to only reading church doctrine but read the texts of other organizations. I do not believe my salvation is dependent on the priesthood, or ordinances given by any old men. I believe everyone -regardless of their faith - will be held accountable for their own soul.

I might be in the minority, but hope to be a bridge allowing my children to choose for themselves what to follow and what not to follow. I believe very strongly that everyone needs their own personal testimony - no borrowed light. That part of the journey is within a community, and part of it is individual and very personal.

We all have different seasons in life, some where we are more comfortable conforming to others, and other seasons where we need solitude for personal reflection. No need to condemn those who are in their "community" phase, and no need to condemn those who are seeking solitude and personal retreat. It's all good - best to celebrate all of it.
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

User avatar
Angel
Posts: 762
Joined: Thu May 31, 2018 8:26 am

Re: Is NOM really "middle way" to any extent anymore?

Post by Angel » Wed May 29, 2019 12:59 pm

Mackman wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 12:26 pm
Corsair : Could you elaborate on what you are doing with your ward ? I have been contemplating for a while if I should be the voice of NOM in my branch for those that need to vent. This is something i see as positive and a real reason to still attend other than for my spouse. I just know when my shelf crashed I really could have used someone to talk too as my wife would not even listen. I am convinced others may have the same concerns but are too afraid or just unwilling to go through all the turmoil associated with a faith crisis.
I think it is really important for each ward to have a seasoned, experienced, voice of reason. People know I do not wear g's, do not have a TR, do not have a church calling.... they also know I have an awesome job - I have respect due to my secular positions and civic engagement ;).

I am very careful not to monopolize meetings - only giving one or two carefully worded, kind, and level headed comments. Calm, cool, collected, professional, level-headed, caring, educated, spiritual - but not superstitious / crazy spiritual. That is what I am going for.

Be the change you want to see and all that :)
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

User avatar
Meilingkie
Posts: 403
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 8:40 pm
Location: Tilburg
Contact:

Re: Is NOM really "middle way" to any extent anymore?

Post by Meilingkie » Thu May 30, 2019 6:40 am

Do I attend reddit, yes. And now more than ever.
Do I attend NOM, yes because this is home.
Or to be more exact, I am making sure it stays that way.

For anyone transitioning I would recommend NOM over Reddit.

As I dive again into the crazy, and as I find myself drawn in again due to that fickle thing called love I find I need NOM.
Because I want her to acclimate, and not experience thermal shock.

Her being an LDS girl I am in contact with.
She’s sooo disaffected, but Reddit is way too harsh for her tastes and sensibilities.
That’s why we as NOM exist
"Getting the Mormon out of the Church is easier than getting the Mormon out of the Ex-Mormon"

User avatar
redjay
Posts: 411
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:20 pm

Re: Is NOM really "middle way" to any extent anymore?

Post by redjay » Thu May 30, 2019 8:40 am

Is NOM really "middle way" to any extent anymore?


No.
At the halfway home. I'm a full-grown man. But I'm not afraid to cry.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 62 guests