New Wendy Nelson video is giving me a serious case of the heebie jeebies

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jfro18
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Re: New Wendy Nelson video is giving me a serious case of the heebie jeebies

Post by jfro18 » Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:51 am

Fifi de la Vergne wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:22 am
jfro18 wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:49 am
And, for the record, I absolutely think Wendy was jumping at the chance for that kind of status. I don't know her inner thoughts, but I do not think for a second she was concerned that it was wrong to marry Nelson because that was her ticket to the CK was a polygamous prophet... that's the Mormon dream, right?!
I don't believe this is most Mormon women's dream. Maybe some would see it as a consolation for not marrying someone they really loved, but it's a very weak consolation for not marrying someone you loved and desired.
Sorry I was joking... they need a sarcasm font of some sort :)

I just meant that I think she was jumping at the chance because it gave her a chance to get a temple wedding and also to be a high profile person (as mentioned she was already kind of known), so it was perfect. I do not believe she recoiled because the situation was actually pretty sweet... she was 55 so leaving her career to jet around the world isn't the same as someone giving up a career in their 20s/30s/or even 40s.

But I do not believe most women want to be a part of a polygamous family... they will be under Mormon doctrine, but they like to pretend D&C 132 doesn't actually pertain to them because if you ignore it then it won't happen, right? :)

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Red Ryder
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Re: New Wendy Nelson video is giving me a serious case of the heebie jeebies

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:30 am

I’d also agree that she’s enthralled with her grab at Mormon fame.

When was the last time anyone posted about President Benson’s wife, President Hunter’s wife, President Hinckley’s wife, or President Monson’s wife?

Hell, how many people actually know their names?

Now the First Ladies of Mormonism are actually out front and center next to the men rather than at home making donuts for the boys return! That’s progress baby! Progress. Yet we disaffected still complain about it. Sheesh, we are a tough crowd to please.

So we need to recognize that Wendy Watson Nelson has either:

1. Changed the rules herself;
2. She happened to be at the right time and place in this move towards progressive Mormonism facade;
3. She’s secretly hypnotizing Russell at bedtime with her good cooking, her lady charm, and her secret brainwashing perfume recipe;
4. Or she’s part of a larger conspiracy among the Apostle’s Wife Club where she has secretly requested the female lawyers at KM draw up transfer documents and she’s going to rename the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints to The Church of Love, A Latter-Day Gift from Our Heavenly Mothers.

Personally I think it’s a combination of the above.

#2 - 60%
#1 - 25%
#3 - 14%
#4 - 1%

Unfortunately it’s all speculation and conjecture. What I do know is that Elder Oaks will rise to power and put all the women back in their plastic showcase and send Uchtdorf to Russia to freeze in the cold!

So let’s celebrate this deviation from the normal Mormon misogyny and continue to speculate how long it takes her to wrestle power away from Elder Oaks before RMN gets transferred to the spirit world in 2 years.
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Re: New Wendy Nelson video is giving me a serious case of the heebie jeebies

Post by wtfluff » Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:45 pm

My "door is always open" any time Aunt Wendy wants to have a chat and convince me she's not a gold-digger.

Of course, I'm sure that her reasons are "too sacred to talk about" (made up lies.) Not that anyone at her level would ever talk to a low-life like me. They're all "too sacred" to actually interact with the riffraff.

Can she get me a tithing refund? That might change my gold-digger opinion, and/or get rid of some vitriol.



Edit: Spelling. I know it doesn't really matter, but now I don't have to look at that extra apostrophe.
Last edited by wtfluff on Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Wendy Nelson video is giving me a serious case of the heebie jeebies

Post by MoPag » Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:00 am

Fifi de la Vergne wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:16 am

So I'm coming from a really different place than a lot of you when I think about Wendy Nelson. I don't think her marriage was a power-grab, or at least I wouldn't put it in those terms. More charitably, I would say that she may have seen her marriage to an apostle as a means of witnessing to more people and being more of an example. I think Red Ryder is spot on about her loneliness and feelings of failure. You can't help but feel those things as a single woman over 25 in the LDS church. She was a woman who had made a name for herself and had some influence already when she married him, and when I look at her I see a woman trying to make the best of her situation.
I'm really glad you addressed the pain and struggles of older single TBM women. There's this whole heavy, sad stigma that follows them. I have 2 aunts who never married. One of them tragically passed away in 2016. She was an amazing, talented, brilliant woman. But there was always this sadness that followed her. It really pisses me off that she had to live her life in a culture that would never fully appreciate her because she never married. Despite her many, many professional accomplishments, TBMs would pity her. Its so f--ked up. And the way the church responds to the unmarried TBMs to so promise them that when thy die, they will get married and finally be happy. It's beyond f--cked up.

Single TBMs are stuck in a sick, dark world. I don't fault Aunt Wendy for getting out of that. I'm with RR. I like her. But I like her because she's kind of terrifyingly fascinating.
Red Ryder wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:30 am
So let’s celebrate this deviation from the normal Mormon misogyny and continue to speculate how long it takes her to wrestle power away from Elder Oaks before RMN gets transferred to the spirit world in 2 years.
YES^^^ :D

I just keep dreaming of the Wendy/Sherri take over! Then Wendy and Sherri are going to get married in the SLC temple on May 15th (the day the priesthood was restored :lol: ) And the statue of JS and Emma will be replaced with a stature of Wendy and Sherri. But we won't get rid of the JS/Emma stature. it will be redesigned with Emma standing over JS's cowering body with a flaming sword in her hand and the pain and anger of generations of Mormon women etched on her face.
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Re: New Wendy Nelson video is giving me a serious case of the heebie jeebies

Post by Red Ryder » Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:16 am

“MoPag” wrote:I like her. But I like her because she's kind of terrifyingly fascinating.
Red Ryder wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:30 am
So let’s celebrate this deviation from the normal Mormon misogyny and continue to speculate how long it takes her to wrestle power away from Elder Oaks before RMN gets transferred to the spirit world in 2 years.
YES^^^ :D

I just keep dreaming of the Wendy/Sherri take over! Then Wendy and Sherri are going to get married in the SLC temple on May 15th (the day the priesthood was restored :lol: ) And the statue of JS and Emma will be replaced with a stature of Wendy and Sherri. But we won't get rid of the JS/Emma stature. it will be redesigned with Emma standing over JS's cowering body with a flaming sword in her hand and the pain and anger of generations of Mormon women etched on her face.
I love this idea!!!

Can we commission the sculptor that did the Rome temple apostle statues?
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Re: New Wendy Nelson video is giving me a serious case of the heebie jeebies

Post by Not Buying It » Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:27 am

MoPag wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:00 am
Single TBMs are stuck in a sick, dark world. I don't fault Aunt Wendy for getting out of that. I'm with RR. I like her. But I like her because she's kind of terrifyingly fascinating.
Red Ryder wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:30 am
So let’s celebrate this deviation from the normal Mormon misogyny and continue to speculate how long it takes her to wrestle power away from Elder Oaks before RMN gets transferred to the spirit world in 2 years.
YES^^^ :D
Well, while I would love to see a woman have some real power in the Church, I'm deeply concerned about how Sister Nelson has chosen to wield that power. By spreading ridiculous stories about President Nelson's nighttime revelations. By writing children's books that convince young Mormons they can't ever make one mistake or they can't be in the "Not Even Once Club". By strengthening the straightjacket Mormon women find themselves in with garbage like "What Would a Holy Woman Do?"

She isn't using her position to make life any better for other women in the Church. She is making it worse with her pharisaical brand of rigidly conformist Mormonism. She is an ironic figure in Mormonism - she has carved out a position for herself to wield more power than any woman that has come before her, and she uses that power to reinforce many of the things in Mormonism that are toxic to women. And everyone else.

She isn't a deviation from the normal Mormon misogyny (although I know that was said in jest). She's all for it.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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Re: New Wendy Nelson video is giving me a serious case of the heebie jeebies

Post by alas » Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:01 am

Not Buying It wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:27 am
MoPag wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:00 am
Single TBMs are stuck in a sick, dark world. I don't fault Aunt Wendy for getting out of that. I'm with RR. I like her. But I like her because she's kind of terrifyingly fascinating.
Red Ryder wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:30 am
So let’s celebrate this deviation from the normal Mormon misogyny and continue to speculate how long it takes her to wrestle power away from Elder Oaks before RMN gets transferred to the spirit world in 2 years.
YES^^^ :D
Well, while I would love to see a woman have some real power in the Church, I'm deeply concerned about how Sister Nelson has chosen to wield that power. By spreading ridiculous stories about President Nelson's nighttime revelations. By writing children's books that convince young Mormons they can't ever make one mistake or they can't be in the "Not Even Once Club". By strengthening the straightjacket Mormon women find themselves in with garbage like "What Would a Holy Woman Do?"

She isn't using her position to make life any better for other women in the Church. She is making it worse with her pharisaical brand of rigidly conformist Mormonism. She is an ironic figure in Mormonism - she has carved out a position for herself to wield more power than any woman that has come before her, and she uses that power to reinforce many of the things in Mormonism that are toxic to women. And everyone else.

She isn't a deviation from the normal Mormon misogyny (although I know that was said in jest). She's all for it.
This. Some of the worst misogynists are women who get their power on the coat tails of some man. Until she married, her power and influence was her own, because she earned it through her career. After she married a powerful man, instead of sticking with the power/influence she had earned, she switched over to the power her husband bestows on her. Now to stay in power, she has to support the male power structure and build up the power of her husband.

Sorry, guys, but if you want a woman who is going to overthrow the men, you do better by putting your hopes on Julie Rowe, Kate Kelly, or Sonia Johnson. They all collected a following by their own actions and were not handed power by a man in power.

So, the General RS President and the wives of powerful men have all been put in place by men and are the least likely to upset the apple cart. Women who gain power through the male power structure will support that power structure because their power is based in that power structure.

Of course, it is always possible that a woman could start out that way and when her husband or father dies, she rebels against the men who try to take over and consolidates the power given to her by her husband or father under her own name. It happens in politics. It kinda sorta happened with Emma Smith. She started a break off church as soon as her *SON* was old enough to run it, but that is kind of a cop out. She used her power as Joseph’s widow to rebel against the men who took over but then still supported the male power structure by handing the new church to her son.

We need Kate Kelly and Julie Rowe to get angry enough to come back and say enough is enough and lead Ordain Women by Julie saying, “I have had a vision that Our Sister Kate is the new Prophet of the *second half* of the restoration. Joseph restored the men’s half and now we need the women’s church restored.” Then she needs to say that Mary Madeline, Mary the mother of the Lord, and sisters Martha and Mary all appeared to her and gave her the priesthood in order to ordain women, starting with Sister Kate as the prophet of the restoration.

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Re: New Wendy Nelson video is giving me a serious case of the heebie jeebies

Post by MoPag » Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:39 am

Not Buying It wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:27 am
MoPag wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:00 am
Single TBMs are stuck in a sick, dark world. I don't fault Aunt Wendy for getting out of that. I'm with RR. I like her. But I like her because she's kind of terrifyingly fascinating.
Red Ryder wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:30 am
So let’s celebrate this deviation from the normal Mormon misogyny and continue to speculate how long it takes her to wrestle power away from Elder Oaks before RMN gets transferred to the spirit world in 2 years.
YES^^^ :D
Well, while I would love to see a woman have some real power in the Church, I'm deeply concerned about how Sister Nelson has chosen to wield that power. By spreading ridiculous stories about President Nelson's nighttime revelations. By writing children's books that convince young Mormons they can't ever make one mistake or they can't be in the "Not Even Once Club". By strengthening the straightjacket Mormon women find themselves in with garbage like "What Would a Holy Woman Do?"

She isn't using her position to make life any better for other women in the Church. She is making it worse with her pharisaical brand of rigidly conformist Mormonism. She is an ironic figure in Mormonism - she has carved out a position for herself to wield more power than any woman that has come before her, and she uses that power to reinforce many of the things in Mormonism that are toxic to women. And everyone else.

She isn't a deviation from the normal Mormon misogyny (although I know that was said in jest). She's all for it.
100% agree^^^

That's why I like to call her Aunt Wendy as a nod to The Handmaid's Tale. For those of you who haven't read the book or watched the series, the Aunts are a class of women given the most power by the patriarchal theocracy. But they use that power to terrorize and abuse the women they are in charge of. Aunt Wendy isn't gouging out eyeballs, but you are exactly right she is using her power to feed the oppression.

I still think it's fascinating, albeit terrifying, to watch her.
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believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

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Re: New Wendy Nelson video is giving me a serious case of the heebie jeebies

Post by MoPag » Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:49 am

alas wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:01 am

We need Kate Kelly and Julie Rowe to get angry enough to come back and say enough is enough and lead Ordain Women by Julie saying, “I have had a vision that Our Sister Kate is the new Prophet of the *second half* of the restoration. Joseph restored the men’s half and now we need the women’s church restored.” Then she needs to say that Mary Madeline, Mary the mother of the Lord, and sisters Martha and Mary all appeared to her and gave her the priesthood in order to ordain women, starting with Sister Kate as the prophet of the restoration.
This would be great too!

I still want to do my Emma/JS statue idea though....
Red Ryder wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:16 am
Can we commission the sculptor that did the Rome temple apostle statues?
Yes, we will totes get them to do it :D
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

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Re: New Wendy Nelson video is giving me a serious case of the heebie jeebies

Post by alas » Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:01 am

MoPag wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:49 am
alas wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:01 am

We need Kate Kelly and Julie Rowe to get angry enough to come back and say enough is enough and lead Ordain Women by Julie saying, “I have had a vision that Our Sister Kate is the new Prophet of the *second half* of the restoration. Joseph restored the men’s half and now we need the women’s church restored.” Then she needs to say that Mary Madeline, Mary the mother of the Lord, and sisters Martha and Mary all appeared to her and gave her the priesthood in order to ordain women, starting with Sister Kate as the prophet of the restoration.
This would be great too!

I still want to do my Emma/JS statue idea though....
Red Ryder wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:16 am
Can we commission the sculptor that did the Rome temple apostle statues?
Yes, we will totes get them to do it :D
There is more satisfaction in the idea of Wendy overthrowing the male power structure and having that statue of Emma standing over Joseph. Partly because as the *second wife,* the idea of her overthrowing the last vestiges of polygamy just sounds too good to resist. Emma’s revenge coming through a second wife! Of course the first sealing they need to do is seal Emma to her second husband ...... and William Law just for fun.

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Re: New Wendy Nelson video is giving me a serious case of the heebie jeebies

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:53 am

Alas, I understanding what you are saying.

Let’s call it the Sistoration!

In some way I think Wendy is actually doing more harm to the teen/young adult membership base.

I’ve heard comments from the youth who think she is crazy and can see through her bull crap as much as we can.

It’s ironic that Aunt Wendy, Kate Kelly, and Julie Rowe all have the same shade of base color. Mormonism really creates a strange brew of characters.

Keep Mormonism weird!

We should write a show about this stuff for Netflix!

Any Netflix producers lurking on NOM?
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Re: New Wendy Nelson video is giving me a serious case of the heebie jeebies

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:27 am

Not Buying It wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:27 am
She isn't using her position to make life any better for other women in the Church. She is making it worse with her pharisaical brand of rigidly conformist Mormonism. She is an ironic figure in Mormonism - she has carved out a position for herself to wield more power than any woman that has come before her, and she uses that power to reinforce many of the things in Mormonism that are toxic to women. And everyone else.
I totally agree. But isn’t this the classical Master vs. Slave narrative? She’s moved into the main house (and bedroom) of the Master. She doesn’t care that the slaves are still oppressed by the religion. Her promotion to bed maiden has blinded her from her own lack of worth as an LDS women.

Wendy isn’t really looking to change the problems you list above. She’s only concerned with herself and the self congratulatory pat on the back.

Honestly I think Kate Kelly and Julie Rowe weren’t any different. Just different soap boxes.
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Re: New Wendy Nelson video is giving me a serious case of the heebie jeebies

Post by alas » Thu Jun 06, 2019 12:26 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:27 am
Not Buying It wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:27 am
She isn't using her position to make life any better for other women in the Church. She is making it worse with her pharisaical brand of rigidly conformist Mormonism. She is an ironic figure in Mormonism - she has carved out a position for herself to wield more power than any woman that has come before her, and she uses that power to reinforce many of the things in Mormonism that are toxic to women. And everyone else.
I totally agree. But isn’t this the classical Master vs. Slave narrative? She’s moved into the main house (and bedroom) of the Master. She doesn’t care that the slaves are still oppressed by the religion. Her promotion to bed maiden has blinded her from her own lack of worth as an LDS women.

Wendy isn’t really looking to change the problems you list above. She’s only concerned with herself and the self congratulatory pat on the back.

Honestly I think Kate Kelly and Julie Rowe weren’t any different. Just different soap boxes.
I would be interested in how you rate Sam Young? Is he the same as Wendy or Kate? Or is he a very different category because he is male? Or maybe because you understand his soap box and don’t understand Kate Kelly’s? Because I would put Kate in a very different category than Wendy who married power or Julie who probably borders on mental illness. Wendy and the general RS President, General P president and YW president I would put all in the same category as women who use male power to keep other women in line. Julie I would put in the same box as Denver Snuffer, nut cases. And Kate I would put with Sam Young as believing protesters. John D, Bill Reel, and Consig I would put as unbelieving protesters. And I guess I would put some of them in the power and influence grabbing category long before I would put Kate Kelly as making a power grab.

I put Kate and Julie together in the fantasy because they could never work together to take over the church. And it was supposed to be funny because the two are so different.

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Re: New Wendy Nelson video is giving me a serious case of the heebie jeebies

Post by RubinHighlander » Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:30 pm

Red Ryder wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:07 pm
Out of ALL of the content on the planet and you chose to watch that?

Maybe it’s a set up for the next “adjustment” RMN is going to unleash?
I can't do it, but this spurred a thought that reminded me of that Brian Regan comedy bit where they guy is trying to figure out what the whales are saying when it really it was just a creaky door in the room he was in.
Guy listening the whale noises: "He's lonely."
Brian: "No, you'er lonely!"

What if it was actually Wendy whispering things in Russ' ear while he's sleeping then he suddenly bolts up and tells her "It's happening." as he grabs is Franklin Planner and runs into the next room.
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Re: New Wendy Nelson video is giving me a serious case of the heebie jeebiesn

Post by Red Ryder » Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:04 pm

alas wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 12:26 pm
I would be interested in how you rate Sam Young? Is he the same as Wendy or Kate? Or is he a very different category because he is male? Or maybe because you understand his soap box and don’t understand Kate Kelly’s? Because I would put Kate in a very different category than Wendy who married power or Julie who probably borders on mental illness. Wendy and the general RS President, General P president and YW president I would put all in the same category as women who use male power to keep other women in line. Julie I would put in the same box as Denver Snuffer, nut cases. And Kate I would put with Sam Young as believing protesters. John D, Bill Reel, and Consig I would put as unbelieving protesters. And I guess I would put some of them in the power and influence grabbing category long before I would put Kate Kelly as making a power grab.

I put Kate and Julie together in the fantasy because they could never work together to take over the church. And it was supposed to be funny because the two are so different.
I like your categorization and agree for the most part. However if I remove the belief/unbelief, protesters, and mental illness categories all that is left is whether or not they are making a positive push for change (that benefits everyone) or are they self promoting?

To answer your question on those parameters I rate Sam Young as equal to Kate, Julie, and Wendy. I’ll add JD, Bill Reel, Mike Norton, and even McKenna Denson and every other Mormon/Former Mormon celebrity past and present. I’ll exclude Sandra Tanner and Micheal Quinn only because they seem to be pursuers of truth in their remaining form of belief while the podcast celebrities and agitators/leaders of change all seem to seek fame and/or fortune. Just look at how they all aligned with McKenna and now are distancing.

I don’t blame people for chasing after or pursing their passions and can clearly see why people fight against the church but there is clearly a pattern that has appeared.

The public figure ex-Mormons are all becoming the flip side of the Mormons members hero worship such as the apostles/celebrities we have eschewed.

Natural elements of human behavior are probably driving this along with the fact that the core audience of both sides had one common element; Mormonism. We’ve been engrained to follow someone or some cause.

Why can’t time and attention be focused on making the world a better place rather than creating a following and increasing podcasts downloads, or validating a 95 year old’s self proclaimed Prophet title?

Did Mother Teresa or Ghandi act like this?

Humans are weird like that.

I think I’m mostly bothered by the self promotion which Wendy, Russell, Kate, Sam, et al are all guilty of.
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Re: New Wendy Nelson video is giving me a serious case of the heebie jeebies

Post by Wonderment » Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:35 pm

Wendy and the general RS President, General P president and YW president I would put all in the same category as women who use male power to keep other women in line
Agreed.

Sister Wendy, like all women of the church, is really nothing. But she fancies herself the co-prophet. There's no such thing of course -- she's only a wife, and a second wife at that. But she believes that this status gives her the right to make all sorts of pronouncements about how women should behave and issue all sorts of written and recorded material about it.

We often hear the question, "Why do people dislike Wendy?" The answer is that she believes herself to have much more importance and significance that she really has; and she tries to keep other women in line with her imagined power. Since all women in the church are nothing, then she is nothing also; and when she tries to make herself appear to be someone important, many women can see right through that illusion.
Just one time, I would like to be in the room when Wendy starts off on one of her self-important, weird lectures, and I would like to say, "Oh, go and sit down, sister. You're only a woman, we are all only just women, and we all know that we are completely irrelevant, except as wives here, and as polygamous wives in the eternities. So, just get off the soapbox and go sit down. No one wants to listen to your ****." :roll: --- Wndr.

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Re: New Wendy Nelson video is giving me a serious case of the heebie jeebiesn

Post by alas » Fri Jun 07, 2019 10:25 am

Red Ryder wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:04 pm
alas wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 12:26 pm
I would be interested in how you rate Sam Young? Is he the same as Wendy or Kate? Or is he a very different category because he is male? Or maybe because you understand his soap box and don’t understand Kate Kelly’s? Because I would put Kate in a very different category than Wendy who married power or Julie who probably borders on mental illness. Wendy and the general RS President, General P president and YW president I would put all in the same category as women who use male power to keep other women in line. Julie I would put in the same box as Denver Snuffer, nut cases. And Kate I would put with Sam Young as believing protesters. John D, Bill Reel, and Consig I would put as unbelieving protesters. And I guess I would put some of them in the power and influence grabbing category long before I would put Kate Kelly as making a power grab.

I put Kate and Julie together in the fantasy because they could never work together to take over the church. And it was supposed to be funny because the two are so different.
I like your categorization and agree for the most part. However if I remove the belief/unbelief, protesters, and mental illness categories all that is left is whether or not they are making a positive push for change (that benefits everyone) or are they self promoting?

To answer your question on those parameters I rate Sam Young as equal to Kate, Julie, and Wendy. I’ll add JD, Bill Reel, Mike Norton, and even McKenna Denson and every other Mormon/Former Mormon celebrity past and present. I’ll exclude Sandra Tanner and Micheal Quinn only because they seem to be pursuers of truth in their remaining form of belief while the podcast celebrities and agitators/leaders of change all seem to seek fame and/or fortune. Just look at how they all aligned with McKenna and now are distancing.

I don’t blame people for chasing after or pursing their passions and can clearly see why people fight against the church but there is clearly a pattern that has appeared.

The public figure ex-Mormons are all becoming the flip side of the Mormons members hero worship such as the apostles/celebrities we have eschewed.

Natural elements of human behavior are probably driving this along with the fact that the core audience of both sides had one common element; Mormonism. We’ve been engrained to follow someone or some cause.

Why can’t time and attention be focused on making the world a better place rather than creating a following and increasing podcasts downloads, or validating a 95 year old’s self proclaimed Prophet title?

Did Mother Teresa or Ghandi act like this?

Humans are weird like that.

I think I’m mostly bothered by the self promotion which Wendy, Russell, Kate, Sam, et al are all guilty of.
OK. I couldn’t imagine you being a sexist jerk, so I had to clarify why you were grouping the way you were. If women who are self promoting are bad, power hungry etc, but men who do exactly the same thing are not, then that is sexism, but since you throw Sam in to that category, I am going to totally agree with you. As my husband says, Sam did a lot of grandstanding. And John D is thrown into the “I don’t care what he is promoting, he is self promoting and then using the hero worship to ....what is the word I want that stops short of accusing him of adultery or sexual harassment but still suggests he uses his fame to harass women, sort of like tRump’s “grab’em by the pussy” comment. “When you are famous you can do anything.”

But yes, when you say they are alike that way, then almost all agitators fall into that category and kind of disgust me the same way, even Ghandi, and Martin Luther King. In order to agitate, you have to get attention and there is a fine line between getting attention yourself and getting attention to your cause. Come to think of it, both Ghandi and King were womanizers.

So, some tactics that might be grandstanding, I forgive if they are designed to draw attention to the cause, but that thin line between drawing attention to yourself and drawing attention to your cause, I think most agitators cross it later in their campaign. I guess fame and attention goes to people’s head. But could Ghandi and King have accomplished what they did without some self aggrandizement? I don’t know. I think they could have done it without womanizing.

In the Feminist community there is always discussion about tactics and ...well they don’t use the term grandstanding, but are the harsher, more public, more demanding, more attention getting tactics good, or do they backfire. Many feel they backfire. And Kate got a lot of backlash. And is being a “good girl” effective for EVER getting change. You can ask sweetly for years and be ignored for years. And does drawing attention to oneself as lead agitator protect followers from punishment or is it just self promotion. There are those who feel that Kate took the brunt of the church’s wrath on herself on purpose so that she was the only one ex-ed. But then there are those who say she just put a target on her back but didn’t do the cause much good by doing so.

Me, I watch from the sidelines because as such an introvert, I wouldn’t make a good public figure.

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