Still no thread on President Oak’s anti-LGBT bigotry?

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Hagoth
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Re: Still no thread on President Oak’s anti-LGBT bigotry?

Post by Hagoth » Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:27 am

Fixed it:
,,,We cannot change the evil influences that inevitably press upon us and our families, but we can increase our power to deal with them. We must try to carve out our own islands of confidence and serenity. We must strengthen our barriers against the forces that besiege. In short, we should push back against the church.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Red Ryder
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Re: Still no thread on President Oak’s anti-LGBT bigotry?

Post by Red Ryder » Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:45 am

Not Buying It wrote: I say pushback against President Oaks and his ilk is more important than ever.
I see your point and your examples are solid.

I was thinking from a non-Mormon perspective only in as much as we pay attention to the Jehovah’s Witnesses, Scientologist, Amish, Catholics, etc. Not my tribe, not my vibe!

But since I have family, friends, and loved ones in the church I have to delicately walk the line between planting seeds of critical thought and pointing out the bullish!t.

The biggest asset the church has is time. They have the ability to play the long game and delicately change the narrative all while they point out that time is running out and Jesus will be back soon.

The biggest liability the church has is time. They risk losing the next generation to dilution and non participation.

The us vs. them cycle will always be their game plan. There is nothing else they offer that isn’t available somewhere else. Community? Join Little League, the PTA, or a book club. Service? Find a children’s hospital, an old couple needing home and yard repairs, help someone move.

So what’s the next grass roots efforts to pushback against? LGBTQ is already making progress. Oaks knows it that’s why he is amplifying his rhetoric.

Let’s take a play out of the Trump playbook and tie derisive monikers to Oaks that point out the obvious underlying character.

Evil Oaks
Homophobic Oaks
Daughtry Dallin
Dirty Dallin

Sacred cows like Oaks deserve to get butchered.

Will that work? No, because he’s a sacred cow. Members defend the sacred cows.

Can we march on Salt Lake City like they are doing in Hong Kong and demand change?

Nope? Why not? Because even the people leaving the Mormon church eventually don’t care long enough to warrant change. The change agents are the minority, the inbetweeners, the members three feet from the exit.
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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Red Ryder
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Re: Still no thread on President Oak’s anti-LGBT bigotry?

Post by Red Ryder » Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:55 am

Excellent post by Nibbler on the other thread applies here:
nibbler wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:51 am
I think the rank and file members do cause change, but only indirectly. For instance, I don't think we'd see all the changes in the temple since 1989 if not for what was going on among the rank and file.

The average member can cause leaders to get off their butts and change through agitation; Protect Every Child, Ordain Women, etc. Usually leaders will only change once the tide turns and not changing causes a larger black eye than changing. The average member can also cause leaders to implement a change through indifference. Home Teaching, low temple attendance, inactivity, etc. In the past both of these member driven changes have been sloooooooow to happen. Maybe it's the leaders preserving ego, wanting to make it clear that it's not public opinion that drives the change so they bide their time. Maybe the leaders are just that conservative and every step they take is held back by fear of change.

The difference is that it's never acceptable to be out ahead of the leaders. You can't make a change in your personal life and not experience any negative side effects in the community.

When the POX came out, if you were against it you were being led astray by Satan, a wicked apostate, whatever negative label the faithful could throw at you. When the POX was rescinded (probably due to it being bad PR) suddenly the faithful are on board with what was once seen as an apostate view. Heck, it's been my experience that the faithful will continue to find ways to throw the members that changed before the leaders gave everyone permission to change under the proverbial bus. You can't win when one of your differences butts heads with a church policy or doctrine.

But that appears to be the nature of change in the church. Polygamy makes you feel icky? You aren't going to super VIP heaven... until a leader changes the policy/doctrine. Feel like black people should be ordained to the priesthood? You're going to have serious problems until 1978. Think three hours of church is too much, you get tired of waiting for a leader to give the green light, so you decide to only attend SM? You're going to have people insisting that you aren't doing what you should be doing... until Nelson says it's okay to only go to church for two hours. Thumb your nose at the rule not to drink coffee? Want to give women the PH? Treat LGBTQ+ people like they're every bit the god in embryo that every else is? You're going to have problems until the leaders give people permission to believe a certain way. It's a culture that looks to authority in everything.
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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Angel
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Re: Still no thread on President Oak’s anti-LGBT bigotry?

Post by Angel » Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:23 am

Listening to it now -
  • Comments about how people only post their "high's" on social media
- I disagree with this, or perhaps I have a more honest friend group who are able to post a combination of complaints and frustrations with good moments? Is this a Mormon thing - for people to only post the sunny side of life and never admit when things are wrong? That would be an interesting comparison to make - the types of things Mormons feel comfortable posting, vs. the types of things most normal people post.
  • Eternal perspective
I have been dabbling in a few eastern things lately - about being present in the here and now, mindfulness etc. The "it's all going to be taken care of after we die" approach vs. "let's figure things out right now in the present and take care of it now" approach. ... continually worried about the eternal future vs. enjoying the present :(
  • We are living in a Godless and immoral generation
??? racism is being fought against, women have more rights, life expectancy has never been longer, more people have never been connected to one another, more education for all, divorce rates are lower - Oaks calling good things evil???
  • all authority is man-made
Has anyone talked directly to God? If you are not talking directly to God then yes, you are talking with humans... Recognizing other humans are imperfect is a form of being responsible and self-reliant... self-reliance, and thinking for oneself is good... "
  • accept or reject as one chooses
No - accept or reject based on the available data. There are a lot of things I would love to choose to reject - but cannot. I am not just following what I would "like" to be true, I am following what millions, and billions of other people have all witnessed, and agreed on - multiple references, multiple data sets. The honest thing to do is accept what data supports, reject what is unverified - or choose to remain undecided and uncommitted with an open mind where consensus has not been achieved.
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

Blashyrkh
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Re: Still no thread on President Oak’s anti-LGBT bigotry?

Post by Blashyrkh » Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:16 pm

Who cares what Oakes or any of the other church leaders say? If you are in the church and a faithful member then you need to evaluate their words and take it or leave it. If you are not a member, are leaving the church or believe that these guys are full of crap then why waste your time worrying about it? The church has standards. Each church/organization has standards. Why be involved with it if you disagree with them? We know what the KKK stands for. We know what ISIS stands for. We know what the Catholics, Baptists, Buddhist and Mormons believe. Take it or leave it. I finally realized that the church was a big lie so I left. Once I left I have no right to sit on the outside and try to change their beliefs and standards. Just as they nor anyone else has the right to demand that I change my beliefs, bigotrys, loves, hates, etc. Despite what they try to say the church does not like the LGBTQ community. So what? Leave the church if you don't agree. I did.

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Re: Still no thread on President Oak’s anti-LGBT bigotry?

Post by jfro18 » Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:04 pm

Blashyrkh wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:16 pm
Who cares what Oakes or any of the other church leaders say? If you are in the church and a faithful member then you need to evaluate their words and take it or leave it. If you are not a member, are leaving the church or believe that these guys are full of crap then why waste your time worrying about it? The church has standards. Each church/organization has standards. Why be involved with it if you disagree with them? We know what the KKK stands for. We know what ISIS stands for. We know what the Catholics, Baptists, Buddhist and Mormons believe. Take it or leave it. I finally realized that the church was a big lie so I left. Once I left I have no right to sit on the outside and try to change their beliefs and standards. Just as they nor anyone else has the right to demand that I change my beliefs, bigotrys, loves, hates, etc. Despite what they try to say the church does not like the LGBTQ community. So what? Leave the church if you don't agree. I did.
I care because my wife cares and it impacts me. Many people on here care because their wife/children/parents/whatever alter their lives based on the words of these old white dudes, so while you leave the church... you can't really escape it.

If my wife woke up one day and said "Holy crap, I just read the evidence and this church is a lie" I could stop caring about what the "prophets" say in a heartbeat, but that's not happening. So instead I look at what they say and realize how wrong it is (and harmful in many instances) and hope that people can continue to push for more change.

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Re: Still no thread on President Oak’s anti-LGBT bigotry?

Post by w2mz » Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:35 pm

jfro18 wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:04 pm
[quote=Blashyrkh post_id=60098 time=<a href="tel:1561184174">1561184174</a> user_id=6219]
Who cares what Oakes or any of the other church leaders say? If you are in the church and a faithful member then you need to evaluate their words and take it or leave it. If you are not a member, are leaving the church or believe that these guys are full of crap then why waste your time worrying about it? The church has standards. Each church/organization has standards. Why be involved with it if you disagree with them? We know what the KKK stands for. We know what ISIS stands for. We know what the Catholics, Baptists, Buddhist and Mormons believe. Take it or leave it. I finally realized that the church was a big lie so I left. Once I left I have no right to sit on the outside and try to change their beliefs and standards. Just as they nor anyone else has the right to demand that I change my beliefs, bigotrys, loves, hates, etc. Despite what they try to say the church does not like the LGBTQ community. So what? Leave the church if you don't agree. I did.
I care because my wife cares and it impacts me. Many people on here care because their wife/children/parents/whatever alter their lives based on the words of these old white dudes, so while you leave the church... you can't really escape it.

If my wife woke up one day and said "Holy crap, I just read the evidence and this church is a lie" I could stop caring about what the "prophets" say in a heartbeat, but that's not happening. So instead I look at what they say and realize how wrong it is (and harmful in many instances) and hope that people can continue to push for more change.
Ditto.

I honestly don’t personally have any “F’s” left to give about what those old curmudgeons have to say. Mentally I’m completely disassociated with their fear mongering, bigotry, and homophobia. I would leave and never look back in a heartbeat.

BUT...

My TBM DW is about as devout as a person can be. So the repetitious bile that spills from the grills of those old white bastards DOES unfortunately impact me and my family. So any forward progress is good for me.
The church has engineered your eternal family into a commodity that can be purchased with an annual fee. The fact that full tithing payment is a requirement for saving ordinances is the biggest red flag imaginable. Hagoth

Blashyrkh
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Re: Still no thread on President Oak’s anti-LGBT bigotry?

Post by Blashyrkh » Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:46 pm

w2mz wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:35 pm
jfro18 wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:04 pm
[quote=Blashyrkh post_id=60098 time=<a href="tel:1561184174">1561184174</a> user_id=6219]
Who cares what Oakes or any of the other church leaders say? If you are in the church and a faithful member then you need to evaluate their words and take it or leave it. If you are not a member, are leaving the church or believe that these guys are full of crap then why waste your time worrying about it? The church has standards. Each church/organization has standards. Why be involved with it if you disagree with them? We know what the KKK stands for. We know what ISIS stands for. We know what the Catholics, Baptists, Buddhist and Mormons believe. Take it or leave it. I finally realized that the church was a big lie so I left. Once I left I have no right to sit on the outside and try to change their beliefs and standards. Just as they nor anyone else has the right to demand that I change my beliefs, bigotrys, loves, hates, etc. Despite what they try to say the church does not like the LGBTQ community. So what? Leave the church if you don't agree. I did.
I care because my wife cares and it impacts me. Many people on here care because their wife/children/parents/whatever alter their lives based on the words of these old white dudes, so while you leave the church... you can't really escape it.

If my wife woke up one day and said "Holy crap, I just read the evidence and this church is a lie" I could stop caring about what the "prophets" say in a heartbeat, but that's not happening. So instead I look at what they say and realize how wrong it is (and harmful in many instances) and hope that people can continue to push for more change.
Ditto.

I honestly don’t personally have any “F’s” left to give about what those old curmudgeons have to say. Mentally I’m completely disassociated with their fear mongering, bigotry, and homophobia. I would leave and never look back in a heartbeat.

BUT...

My TBM DW is about as devout as a person can be. So the repetitious bile that spills from the grills of those old white bastards DOES unfortunately impact me and my family. So any forward progress is good for me.
So maybe you need to work on your wife, husband, son or daughter rather than the entire church. Look, I have no actual statistics but my guess is that the majority of church going, devoted, LDS folk would be happy if those who don't agree with church doctrine on the LGBTQ subject would just go away and leave the church alone. My sister-in-law is as devout as can be yet she won't rest until her gay son can get married in the temple. Um, doesn't she realize that this goes against church doctrine? Any religion is harmful to the individual. Christianity teaches you that you suck as a human and are a failure and that only some magical sky fairy can save your soul. Should we revamp the entire structure of Christianity so that there is no reference to any sin? That everyone is perfect and you can do whatever you like because commandments and standards make people feel sad inside? I for one applaude the LDS church for somewhat sticking to their beliefs even though I believe that these beliefs are ridiculous. The core beliefs of any group should never change to appease society even if those who go against these beliefs may feel sad or rejected by the group.

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Re: Still no thread on President Oak’s anti-LGBT bigotry?

Post by nibbler » Sun Jun 23, 2019 6:28 am

Angel wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:23 am
  • Comments about how people only post their "high's" on social media
Sounds like a Sunday School manual.
Angel wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:23 am
  • accept or reject as one chooses
Pesky agency. Everyone should be forced to go to heaven. Pros: no one would be lost!
We see things not as they are, but as we are ourselves. - H.M. Tomlinson

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Re: Still no thread on President Oak’s anti-LGBT bigotry?

Post by nibbler » Sun Jun 23, 2019 6:40 am

Blashyrkh wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:46 pm
So maybe you need to work on your wife, husband, son or daughter rather than the entire church.
That's certainly one approach but I know many people that are in a situation where the church has far more influence over their family and friends than they do. If a church leader says something it's met with instant acceptance. If they say something that goes against what a church leader says they're shut out. Everything they say from that point on is treated with suspicion. Maybe there are some circumstances where the only path forward is getting the church to change because that's the only direction from which family members will accept change.
Blashyrkh wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:46 pm
Look, I have no actual statistics but my guess is that the majority of church going, devoted, LDS folk would be happy if those who don't agree with church doctrine on the LGBTQ subject would just go away and leave the church alone.
Given the activity rates I figure that's what most people do, they quit church, move on with their lives, and don't look back. There will always be a group that wants to press for change in the church. If it's hard or even an invalid position to want to change the church then it's probably just as hard or invalid a position to change the people that want to stick around to apply pressure to church leaders.
We see things not as they are, but as we are ourselves. - H.M. Tomlinson

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Re: Still no thread on President Oak’s anti-LGBT bigotry?

Post by jfro18 » Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:07 am

Blashyrkh wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:46 pm
Look, I have no actual statistics but my guess is that the majority of church going, devoted, LDS folk would be happy if those who don't agree with church doctrine on the LGBTQ subject would just go away and leave the church alone.
Of course they would. Bernie Madoff would've been happy if those he scammed just walked away. Scientologists would love those who leave would shut up. Same with companies where people blow the whistle.

I'm really not sure what the point here is. If something is harmful or untrue, why should everyone who sees that just shut up about it in order to preserve a lie for those who haven't?

I get the point of walking away from the church once you leave, but for those who still have spouses/children/parents in it, that is just an unrealistic expectation because you can not escape it even if you personally leave. And as the church continues to teach those who leave are "spiritually broken" "snake oil salesmen" to the entire youth of the church, I don't know why those who leave *should* shut up and let their loved ones here that unanswered.

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Re: Still no thread on President Oak’s anti-LGBT bigotry?

Post by Newme » Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:16 am

Sometimes I wonder if people MUST feel belonging by joining in mob mentality in shunning others. 1st, it’s: “If you don’t believe as us Mormons - doom on you!” Then when Mormonism is no longer tenable, it then becomes, “If you don’t believe as us lgbtq - doom on you!”

This ideological throwing rocks at anyone who doesn’t go along with their illogical notions, makes some of us feel that NOM and ex-mo groups are just as mean and will “excommunicate” you from their group if you don’t tote their line. It makes me lose hope in people standing up for truth even when it isn’t popular.

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Re: Still no thread on President Oak’s anti-LGBT bigotry?

Post by jfro18 » Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:30 am

Newme wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:16 am
Sometimes I wonder if people MUST feel belonging by joining in mob mentality in shunning others. 1st, it’s: “If you don’t believe as us Mormons - doom on you!” Then when Mormonism is no longer tenable, it then becomes, “If you don’t believe as us lgbtq - doom on you!”

This ideological throwing rocks at anyone who doesn’t go along with their illogical notions, makes some of us feel that NOM and ex-mo groups are just as mean and will “excommunicate” you from their group if you don’t tote their line. It makes me lose hope in people standing up for truth even when it isn’t popular.
I think that's why I don't like ex-mo reddit as a community - it is very much an all or nothing approach and obviously when people go in there to give a faithful response they are usually voted down and flooded with replies.

And it's why I like this group because I think most in here either still have some belief in the church (although not many) or know the nuances better of having family members who do believe while they don't.

There's always a need for validation and I think that's led to so much of the tribalism on social media whether it's Mormonism, politics, or even oddball stuff like anti-vaxxers, conspiracy theorists, or people who think the ending of Lost was actually pretty good. :lol:

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Re: Still no thread on President Oak’s anti-LGBT bigotry?

Post by Not Buying It » Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:48 am

Blashyrkh wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:46 pm
w2mz wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:35 pm
jfro18 wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:04 pm
[quote=Blashyrkh post_id=60098 time=<a href="tel:1561184174">1561184174</a> user_id=6219]
Who cares what Oakes or any of the other church leaders say? If you are in the church and a faithful member then you need to evaluate their words and take it or leave it. If you are not a member, are leaving the church or believe that these guys are full of crap then why waste your time worrying about it? The church has standards. Each church/organization has standards. Why be involved with it if you disagree with them? We know what the KKK stands for. We know what ISIS stands for. We know what the Catholics, Baptists, Buddhist and Mormons believe. Take it or leave it. I finally realized that the church was a big lie so I left. Once I left I have no right to sit on the outside and try to change their beliefs and standards. Just as they nor anyone else has the right to demand that I change my beliefs, bigotrys, loves, hates, etc. Despite what they try to say the church does not like the LGBTQ community. So what? Leave the church if you don't agree. I did.
I care because my wife cares and it impacts me. Many people on here care because their wife/children/parents/whatever alter their lives based on the words of these old white dudes, so while you leave the church... you can't really escape it.

If my wife woke up one day and said "Holy crap, I just read the evidence and this church is a lie" I could stop caring about what the "prophets" say in a heartbeat, but that's not happening. So instead I look at what they say and realize how wrong it is (and harmful in many instances) and hope that people can continue to push for more change.
Ditto.

I honestly don’t personally have any “F’s” left to give about what those old curmudgeons have to say. Mentally I’m completely disassociated with their fear mongering, bigotry, and homophobia. I would leave and never look back in a heartbeat.

BUT...

My TBM DW is about as devout as a person can be. So the repetitious bile that spills from the grills of those old white bastards DOES unfortunately impact me and my family. So any forward progress is good for me.
So maybe you need to work on your wife, husband, son or daughter rather than the entire church. Look, I have no actual statistics but my guess is that the majority of church going, devoted, LDS folk would be happy if those who don't agree with church doctrine on the LGBTQ subject would just go away and leave the church alone. My sister-in-law is as devout as can be yet she won't rest until her gay son can get married in the temple. Um, doesn't she realize that this goes against church doctrine? Any religion is harmful to the individual. Christianity teaches you that you suck as a human and are a failure and that only some magical sky fairy can save your soul. Should we revamp the entire structure of Christianity so that there is no reference to any sin? That everyone is perfect and you can do whatever you like because commandments and standards make people feel sad inside? I for one applaude the LDS church for somewhat sticking to their beliefs even though I believe that these beliefs are ridiculous. The core beliefs of any group should never change to appease society even if those who go against these beliefs may feel sad or rejected by the group.
Are you sure you want to stand by your statement that “The core beliefs of any group should never change to appease society even if those who go against these beliefs may feel sad or rejected by the group.”? I just finished reading Gilbert King’s “Devil in the Grove: Thurgood Marshall, the Groveland Boys, and the Dawn of a New America”. The core beliefs of the citizens of Lake County, Florida in the 1950s included the belief that whites were better than blacks, and law enforcement on several documented occasions murdered black people with impunity to enforce that belief and terrorize blacks into submission. The entire social structure of that county was rigged to keep whites in power and blacks as a source of cheap labor, and the law enforcement and the justice system enforced it ruthlessly and violently. The Groveland Boys were innocent of the rape they were accused of, three of the four of them were murdered by law enforcement and no one ever had to account for it. We can’t even grasp what life was like for blacks in that area at the time.

Yes, this is an extreme example, but Lake County Florida would still be murdering and exploiting blacks if those on the outside hadn’t forced change (and I rather suspect even today there isn’t as much change as there needs to be). When the core beliefs of a group are wrong, harmful, toxic, and oppressive to some of those it has power over, I think it is wrong to turn a blind eye to it. The Church has many good qualities - but it is also incredibly damaging to women, to our LGBT brothers and sisters, to any young person forced to talk about private sexual behaviors in a closed door meeting with a middle aged man, etc. We can turn a blind eye to it and blame those who are enmeshed in it for not leaving, or we can try and pressure the organization to be more humane. Not everyone in the Church has the option of leaving, and I don’t think we should just turn away from them.

In summary, I strongly disagree that “the core beliefs of any group” are untouchable - some core beliefs of some groups are egregiously wrong, and those acquainted with those wrongs should use their influence to change them.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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Re: Still no thread on President Oak’s anti-LGBT bigotry?

Post by Newme » Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:11 pm

NotBuyingIt,
I agree that some laws or cultural norms ought to be questioned and sometimes overthrown, as MLK Jr., eloquently pointed out. Many seem to have been deceived into believing propaganda like “The Overhauling of Straight America” and “After the Ball” that explains how media needs to hide the ugly facts about homosexuality and pretend it’s “gay happy rainbows.” They even encourage lying about statistical facts of AIDs and STDs, and medical consequences of anal sex, telling supporters to keep lying and eventually enough people will believe despite evidence showing it to be incorrect. It’s like religious dogma - unquestioned lies that hurt people.

A couple good friends have died of AIDS. Many more are suffering with it and STDs, yet you rarely hear about the dangers. And if you try to warn people - they, like cult members call you names, when really, it seems quite hateful to go along with harmful lies.

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Re: Still no thread on President Oak’s anti-LGBT bigotry?

Post by Not Buying It » Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:26 am

Newme wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:11 pm
NotBuyingIt,
I agree that some laws or cultural norms ought to be questioned and sometimes overthrown, as MLK Jr., eloquently pointed out. Many seem to have been deceived into believing propaganda like “The Overhauling of Straight America” and “After the Ball” that explains how media needs to hide the ugly facts about homosexuality and pretend it’s “gay happy rainbows.” They even encourage lying about statistical facts of AIDs and STDs, and medical consequences of anal sex, telling supporters to keep lying and eventually enough people will believe despite evidence showing it to be incorrect. It’s like religious dogma - unquestioned lies that hurt people.

A couple good friends have died of AIDS. Many more are suffering with it and STDs, yet you rarely hear about the dangers. And if you try to warn people - they, like cult members call you names, when really, it seems quite hateful to go along with harmful lies.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and shouldn’t feel like you aren’t welcome here or aren’t free to express an opinion that might be different than a lot of others here. I’ve said in another thread this place is too much of an echo chamber, and if we pile on anyone with a different opinion, it’s going to stay that way. So I don’t want what I am about to say to come across as attacking you, and I certainly don’t want to make you feel unwelcome.

I think you have a point about the media downplaying risks associated with homosexual sexual behavior, but I would quickly add it also downplays the risks of heterosexual sexual behavior. Heterosexuals also run the risk of getting diseases, but few sexually promiscuous characters in movies and TV ever seem to get them. Until relatively recently, any woman who engaged in sex literally took her life in her hands due to the high rate of death during childbirth, and even today it still happens sometimes.

Sex carries risks. It always has, it always will. But it is such a powerful drive most people - homosexual and heterosexual alike - are willing to live with those risks. We could be more honest and upfront as a society as to what those risks are both for the homosexual and heterosexual population.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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Re: Still no thread on President Oak’s anti-LGBT bigotry?

Post by Hagoth » Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:04 pm

It seems to me that we create unnecessary problems when we think of homosexuals as people with certain sexual behaviors rather than as a segment of the human family. Imagine being heterosexual and knowing that you are primarily thought of as one of those people who goes around sticking penises in vaginas. Of course, this is exactly the kind over oversimplification and categorization that organizations like the church seek to proliferate.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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Newme
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Re: Still no thread on President Oak’s anti-LGBT bigotry?

Post by Newme » Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:46 am

The difference is significant. Pardon bluntness but it’s central to this issue. An anus is anatomically the exit point of the digestive system for poop. It’s not a vagina. Anal sex (& this applies to all anuses ;) ) involves risks of anal fissures, colon rupture, bacterial infection and sometimes anal cancer. This is an ugly fact many want to ignore.

And yes, STDs and AIDs are among people of various sexual preferences, but the rates among men with homosexual lifestyles are - or should be - alarming. From nation-wide health reports gathered by the United States Center for Disease Control...
  • “Sexually Transmitted Diseases (STDs) have been rising among gay and bisexual men, with increases in syphilis being seen across the country. In 2014, gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men accounted for 83% of primary and secondary syphilis cases where sex of sex partner was known in the United States. Gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men often get other STDs, including chlamydia and gonorrhea infections. HPV (Human papillomavirus), the most common STD in the United States, is also a concern for gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men. Some types of HPV can cause genital and anal warts and some can lead to the development of anal and oral cancers. Gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men are 17 times more likely to get anal cancer than heterosexual men. Men who are HIV-positive are even more likely than those who do not have HIV to get anal cancer.”
    https://www.cdc.gov/msmhealth/STD.htm
  • “Gay and bisexual mena are the population most affected by HIV in the United States. In 2016, gay and bisexual men accounted for 67% of the 40,324 new HIV diagnosesb in the United States and 6 dependent areas.c Approximately 492,000 sexually active gay and bisexual men are at high risk for HIV; however, we have more tools to prevent HIV than ever before...
    In 2015, there were 6,531 deaths among gay and bisexual men with diagnosed HIV in the United States and 6 dependent areas.”
    https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/group/msm/index.html
Though for statistical gathering like the above, categorizing people to understand behavioral affects can be helpful, I also believe labeling people by their sexual disorders is inappropriate and demeaning. People are complex - with unique temperaments, personalities, families, beliefs, opportunitie$, education, culture, religion or lack of, strengths and weaknesses. And we’re all works in progress. An old friend of mine used to be very focused on her talent of singing - whenever you talked to her, she manager to turn it to her singing... it left the impression that she used that to feel better about herself but it made her seem unbalanced and obsessed. It was as if that was her sole sense of identity and self esteem. When my niece proudly and obsessively identified herself as lesbian, I got a similar impression. And she ignored the fact that she had been sexually abused by men - as if that had nothing to do with her not being attracted to men.

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Re: Still no thread on President Oak’s anti-LGBT bigotry?

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:36 am

As soon as I saw Newme posted I thought, oh no, is she going to bring up anal fissures again?

Geez!

If your anal fissures are flaring up again and bothering you then go see a fricken doctor.

Why bring up anal fissures every time there’s a post about homosexuality.

Nobody else but you brings up these risk factors. You don’t bring up vaginal fissures or penile chaffing when posting about heterosexual sex.

What’s your fascination with anal fissures?

Are you a butt doctor in real life?

Jesus H. Christ this is getting old.

Edited for language violation of NOM board rule #1
Last edited by Red Ryder on Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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Re: Still no thread on President Oak’s anti-LGBT bigotry?

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:41 am

“Newme” wrote: An old friend of mine used to be very focused on her talent of singing - whenever you talked to her, she manager to turn it to her singing... it left the impression that she used that to feel better about herself but it made her seem unbalanced and obsessed. It was as if that was her sole sense of identity and self esteem.
Replace singing with “anal fissures” and you’ve just described yourself.

Shut the fetch up about it!

Edited for language violation of NOM board rule #1
Last edited by Red Ryder on Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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