Where did this come from?

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blazerb
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Where did this come from?

Post by blazerb » Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:43 am

I don't see a thread about this, yet. Have you seen Elder Ballard's comment about missionaries pressuring people to get baptized early in the teaching process: https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders-a ... inar-50222

I find his statement ridiculous, as in "worthy of ridicule." On my mission in the late 80's, we were instructed to follow the counsel in that awful pamphlet, "The Testifying and Challenging Missionary." I think it's by Alvin Dyer. At one point we were required to read it every day. We were told that people did not need to know anything about the church in order to commit to baptism. Elder Ballard has to know about this. He has to know about instructions given in old discussions, the Missionary Guide (we used this on my mission), and now in Preach My Gospel that people are to be committed as early as possible, even during the initial contact.

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Not Buying It
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Re: Where did this come from?

Post by Not Buying It » Fri Jun 28, 2019 7:32 am

blazerb wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:43 am
I don't see a thread about this, yet. Have you seen Elder Ballard's comment about missionaries pressuring people to get baptized early in the teaching process: https://www.thechurchnews.com/leaders-a ... inar-50222

I find his statement ridiculous, as in "worthy of ridicule." On my mission in the late 80's, we were instructed to follow the counsel in that awful pamphlet, "The Testifying and Challenging Missionary." I think it's by Alvin Dyer. At one point we were required to read it every day. We were told that people did not need to know anything about the church in order to commit to baptism. Elder Ballard has to know about this. He has to know about instructions given in old discussions, the Missionary Guide (we used this on my mission), and now in Preach My Gospel that people are to be committed as early as possible, even during the initial contact.
Whether by design or because he forgot, Elder Ballard simply isn’t being truthful. Tens of thousands of missionaries didn’t come up with the idea of trying to commit to baptism on the first discussion all on their own. Over on Reddit someone has posted a picture of the old first discussion manual I used where it clearly says “As prompted by the Spirit, you could now ask the investigators to be baptized”. See https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... to_invite/ .

Once again, we find the Brethren blaming the members when they are the ones at fault. Gotta love the way they scapegoat the members for their own poor judgment all the time.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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RubinHighlander
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Re: Where did this come from?

Post by RubinHighlander » Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:11 am

Looks like back peddling flip flopping to me. Could they be anymore "have it both ways" in their modus operandi? Seems like everytime they talk it's out both side of their mouths. I guess that's how you run a super rich non-profit cult.
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wtfluff
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Re: Where did this come from?

Post by wtfluff » Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:35 am

Once again, MORmONism, and the human mind amazes me.

We watch contradictions like this happen, basically in real time. We can point out to believers now these old coots blatantly lie; Yet those believers just keep on believin'.
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nibbler
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Re: Where did this come from?

Post by nibbler » Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:24 am

If you want to get extremely legalistic about it, Ballard has a few outs.
Some missionaries have felt pressure to invite people to be baptized during the first lesson or even the first contact. “These missionaries have felt that inviting people to be baptized the very first time they meet them demonstrated the missionaries’ faith and supports their thinking that inviting people to be baptized early is what is expected,” he said. “Other missionaries have felt that an invitation to be baptized early allowed them to promptly separate the wheat from the tares. In this case, some see the baptismal invitation as a sifting tool.”

Church leaders don’t know where these practices began, but “it was never our intention to invite people to be baptized before they had learned something about the gospel, felt the Holy Ghost, and had been properly prepared to accept a lifelong commitment to follow Jesus Christ,” said President Ballard. “Our retention rates will dramatically increase when people desire to be baptized because of the spiritual experiences they are having rather than feeling pressured into being baptized by our missionaries.”
Those missionary discussions included the "as prompted by the spirit" language. I guess the line is that people aren't waiting for the spirit to tell them to invite people. If the invite came minutes into a discussion, "You heard of Jesus?" "Yeah." That ticks the learned something about the gospel box. I don't think anyone is ever adequately prepared to accept the type of commitment to follow Jesus like the church wants them to follow Jesus, so there's that.

But I do agree. It seems like those no-good members are always doing something wrong. I don't know why leaders can't include themselves on these course corrections. A simple "We've given these instructions in the past, we too will have to work hard to make this change." But humility and accepting responsibility is hard to come by at the top.
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wtfluff
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Re: Where did this come from?

Post by wtfluff » Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:53 am

nibbler wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:24 am
If you want to get extremely legalistic about it, Ballard has a few outs.
Some missionaries have felt pressure to invite people to be baptized during the first lesson or even the first contact. “These missionaries have felt that inviting people to be baptized the very first time they meet them demonstrated the missionaries’ faith and supports their thinking that inviting people to be baptized early is what is expected,” he said. “Other missionaries have felt that an invitation to be baptized early allowed them to promptly separate the wheat from the tares. In this case, some see the baptismal invitation as a sifting tool.”

Church leaders don’t know where these practices began, but “it was never our intention to invite people to be baptized before they had learned something about the gospel, felt the Holy Ghost, and had been properly prepared to accept a lifelong commitment to follow Jesus Christ,” said President Ballard. “Our retention rates will dramatically increase when people desire to be baptized because of the spiritual experiences they are having rather than feeling pressured into being baptized by our missionaries.”
Those missionary discussions included the "as prompted by the spirit" language. I guess the line is that people aren't waiting for the spirit to tell them to invite people. If the invite came minutes into a discussion, "You heard of Jesus?" "Yeah." That ticks the learned something about the gospel box. I don't think anyone is ever adequately prepared to accept the type of commitment to follow Jesus like the church wants them to follow Jesus, so there's that.

But I do agree. It seems like those no-good members are always doing something wrong. I don't know why leaders can't include themselves on these course corrections. A simple "We've given these instructions in the past, we too will have to work hard to make this change." But humility and accepting responsibility is hard to come by at the top.
Your legalistic apologetic response is excellent Nibbler. It's highly likely that many believers will use that "out" to justify Ballard's statements and tame their Cog-Dis.

But the "Church leaders don’t know where these practices began" statement is just a step too far. There is plenty of evidence in their missionary manuals about getting commitments as early, and as often as possible. There are also millions of stories of missionaries having those types of commitments pushed on them by "Church leaders."

Perhaps if Ballard had left out the "Church leaders don't know" statement I'd be inclined to "give him a break," but there are mountains of evidence to show him where his corporation's practices have come from.
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Sheamus Moore
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Re: Where did this come from?

Post by Sheamus Moore » Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:18 pm

“For us to see the great harvest the Lord has promised, missionaries need to move away from the ‘check-the-box’ approach of finding, teaching and extending invitations....” -Ballard

Isn’t ‘check-the-box’ the cornerstone of our religion? I distinctly remember being instructed to challenge ‘investigators’ to commit in the first discussion which invariably resulted in hemming and hawing and deer-in-the-headlights expression. It was awkward for everyone in the room.

I sense from the article that “Spirit-led invitations” will now be the new sales force catch phrase.

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Linked
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Re: Where did this come from?

Post by Linked » Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:08 pm

The image below is from the mormon church's First Twelve Weeks training book (or archived), I think it is one of the more damning items. No talk of the spirit there, just rate yourself (hint: 1 is bad, 5 is good).

Image

Thanks to this post on reddit: https://old.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... r_ballard/
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A New Name
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Re: Where did this come from?

Post by A New Name » Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:45 pm

Somebody on reddit remmebers Eldfer Ballard coming to his mission and teaching them to commit investigators to baptism on the first discussion. So he even taught it, but has no idea where it came from!

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deacon blues
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Re: Where did this come from?

Post by deacon blues » Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:10 pm

The last few months of my mission (California Arcadia 1977) we were taught a pilot program where people were baptized the the first day they met with the missionaries. We were instructed to teach at the Stake Center, and have the baptismal font ready. The last Sat. night of my mission we baptized a guy the same day we meet him. I left about 3 days later so I can’t say how long the program continues. But where was Ballard in 1977?😉
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wtfluff
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Re: Where did this come from?

Post by wtfluff » Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:32 pm

Sheamus Moore wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:18 pm
I sense from the article that “Spirit-led invitations” will now be the new sales force catch phrase.
Well that's the thing isn't it? If a 19-year-old kid is told over, and over, and over, and over that they need to "challenge" and "commit" then "I need to challenge this person to commit" is literally going to pop into their head every time they talk to someone. And when an idea like that "suddenly" pops into their head, they're going attribute it to a ghost (named Holy, or Spirit™.)

So there you have it: Every one of those "challenges" that Ballard somehow doesn't understand DID in fact come from The Ghost.

Same old, same old. Nothing ever changes.
Last edited by wtfluff on Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Phil Lurkerman
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Re: Where did this come from?

Post by Phil Lurkerman » Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:09 pm

Unbelievable - literally.

During my mission (1987-89, Winnipeg) we were challenged by a visiting GA to immediately begin boldly inviting people to be baptized as our door approach while tracting. You can imagine how well that worked. :roll:
I was once a cafeteria Mormon on a hunger strike. Have since found a buffet elsewhere.

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blazerb
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Re: Where did this come from?

Post by blazerb » Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:25 pm

nibbler wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:24 am
If you want to get extremely legalistic about it, Ballard has a few outs.
Some missionaries have felt pressure to invite people to be baptized during the first lesson or even the first contact. “These missionaries have felt that inviting people to be baptized the very first time they meet them demonstrated the missionaries’ faith and supports their thinking that inviting people to be baptized early is what is expected,” he said. “Other missionaries have felt that an invitation to be baptized early allowed them to promptly separate the wheat from the tares. In this case, some see the baptismal invitation as a sifting tool.”

Church leaders don’t know where these practices began, but “it was never our intention to invite people to be baptized before they had learned something about the gospel, felt the Holy Ghost, and had been properly prepared to accept a lifelong commitment to follow Jesus Christ,” said President Ballard. “Our retention rates will dramatically increase when people desire to be baptized because of the spiritual experiences they are having rather than feeling pressured into being baptized by our missionaries.”
Those missionary discussions included the "as prompted by the spirit" language. I guess the line is that people aren't waiting for the spirit to tell them to invite people. If the invite came minutes into a discussion, "You heard of Jesus?" "Yeah." That ticks the learned something about the gospel box. I don't think anyone is ever adequately prepared to accept the type of commitment to follow Jesus like the church wants them to follow Jesus, so there's that.

But I do agree. It seems like those no-good members are always doing something wrong. I don't know why leaders can't include themselves on these course corrections. A simple "We've given these instructions in the past, we too will have to work hard to make this change." But humility and accepting responsibility is hard to come by at the top.
Yes, there are outs. But they knew 30 years ago that mission presidents were telling us to commit people to baptism during the contact or in the first discussion. The second discussion was the very latest that we were to wait. If someone thought that was too early, we were told that was not the Spirit, or at least not the right one. It was nuts.

You are exactly correct. This is another instance of blaming the members for doing what the GA's told them to do. What has been blamed on members or local leaders: early baptism challenges, inappropriate sexual questions for youth, incivility to LGBT+ persons, failure to stop sexual predators, racism, parents throwing their children out of the house. Are there others I'm missing? I also wish that just once they would take a little responsibility for what they've said. I guess Uchtdorf almost did once. He seems to have been put in his place, though. I can't think of another.

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nibbler
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Re: Where did this come from?

Post by nibbler » Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:59 am

deacon blues wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:10 pm
But where was Ballard in 1977?😉
https://www.mormonwiki.com/M._Russell_B ... sus_Christ
In 1976 he was called to the First Quorum of the Seventy where he served as the Executive Director of the Curriculum Department, Executive Director of the Correlation Department, Executive Director of the Missionary Department, and as President of the International Mission.
:lol:

And yeah, I know this counsel has been around for at least the last 30 years, probably much longer. Now it's this surprising revelation. What! Someone just told me you guys are asking people to get baptized during the first contact with them? What's wrong with you?

Leadership in the church: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3xWOriHqwU&t=2m11s
We don’t see things as they are, we see them as we are.
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Hagoth
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Re: Where did this come from?

Post by Hagoth » Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:33 am

Yeah, we were doing that in the late 70s. The people who accepted were always great, devoted, stalwart members after that (SARCASM). I remember one lady who never came to church again told me she just did it because she liked going underwater.
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Random
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Re: Where did this come from?

Post by Random » Sun Jun 30, 2019 6:55 pm

This article. This article. You know, usually when I read something a church leader says or does, I can roll my eyes or shrug it off or be mildly irritated. For some reason this blatant lying makes me furious. Smoke coming out of my ears furious. More angry than the policy against babies and children (which is why I resigned).

It makes me want to barf. It makes me want to take the people who blithely accept the lie, who lived through church publications and church apostles pushing, pushing, and pushing to commit to baptism on the first discussion, it makes me want to crack their heads together to wake them up! Especially the returned missionaries of all ages. Do they not remember what a failure they were if they couldn't do this? Do they not remember the conviction that they were going to hell if they did not obey the Lord's words through his own publications and his own holy men who talked with him every Thursday in the temple? (Yes, I did believe that in the old days.)

How long will the members accept the abuse of being blamed for when the leaders screw up?
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moksha
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Re: Where did this come from?

Post by moksha » Sun Jun 30, 2019 11:21 pm

Church leaders don’t know where these practices began, but “it was never our intention to invite people to be baptized before they had learned something about the gospel, felt the Holy Ghost, and had been properly prepared to accept a lifelong commitment to follow Jesus Christ,” said President Ballard.
It's not like there is a regulation requiring top Church leaders to be honest when they speak, to do so would be like inviting them to continually indict the Church every time they opened their mouth.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
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RS Teacher
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Re: Where did this come from?

Post by RS Teacher » Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:42 am

I served a mission in Northern Europe in the late 80's, and I remember Ballard's visit to my mission very clearly. I remember him standing at the pulpit of our little chapel telling us that if someone wasn't baptized within 6 weeks, we needed to cut them loose and move on, also that we needed to challenge them to baptism during the first discussion.He was very adamant about that. I thought it was ridiculous.

I have to say that Ballard is a despicable person. We were teaching a family that had been investigating the church for nearly a year. They had a severely handicapped daughter who was in a wheelchair. We invited them to meet with Elder Ballard prior to his session with the missionaries. I remember him giving their daughter a blessing, which I hoped was going to be beautiful and inspired--you know, coming from a real life Apostle of the Lord and all. Instead he put his hands on her head and said that if her parents were baptized, she would be healed and would walk again. But if they failed to be baptized, the Lord would not be able to bless them (Satan's power, blah blah blah), and their daughter would remain in her wheel chair for life. I wanted to spit in his face. I thanked Heaven that the family's English didn't seem up to the task of really understanding what he said. Some months later, they were baptized, and lo and behold, 30 years later, their lovely daughter is still in her wheelchair. I never would have predicted that. Wait . . . maybe it was my lack of faith!

Later that evening, my companion and I were in a bike accident on our way home from the church. My companion was injured and unconscious. We were still very near the church, so Ballard came by and gave her a blessing. Later he and the Mission Pres swung by the hospital. I was uninjured, but quite shaken. My comp was recovering and we were set to go home later that evening. Problem was, we were on the other side of the city, it was getting late and dark, and I didn't know how we were going to get home. Then a thought hit me--the Elders chauffeuring Ballard could drive us home. Surely Elder Ballard wouldn't leave two sister missionaries stranded on the wrong side of a large, foreign city in the middle of the night, with no way to get home. But, without a glance my way, he told the Elders that he needed to get back to his hotel, so off they went. And at about midnight, we had to start calling ward members to see if anyone could drive us home. What kind of a jerk would do something like that?!

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Corsair
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Re: Where did this come from?

Post by Corsair » Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:59 am

It's quite an uproar over on Reddit/r/exmormon over these comments. A lot of missionaries were strongly pressured to invite for baptism in the first lesson. I certainly got this direction after visiting Seventies like Loren C. Dunn and Phillip Sontag visited my mission. My mission presidents were entirely supportive of this idea and the Zone and District Leaders held us to this standard in our regular meetings.

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alas
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Re: Where did this come from?

Post by alas » Mon Jul 01, 2019 11:40 am

After the reversal of the unpopular POX, we are surprised by a sudden reversal of the unpopular “challenge them to baptism on the first lesson”? Nope, the church is good at reversing things that the members find unChristlike, it just takes them 5 through 50 years to catch on that it is an unChristlike, bad idea, and is causing them to lose members.

See, the missionaries, at least the ones with common sense, knew this was a bad idea 50 years ago. My husband says that on his mission back in 68-70 that they were pressured to challenge that investigators set a baptism date on the first discussion. This has been pushed for over 50 years now. My DH says, “Did I challenge them to be baptized during the first discussion?....No! I could see as a 19 year old that investigators needed to actually learn more about the church or they would drop out faster than they joined.”

My brother (mission 70-72) also had a big problem with this rule. I remember my brother coming home from his mission to Austria and sticking his garments in the attic. He complained about several mission rules that were “stupid”. One was the “challenge them to be baptized during the first discussion” rule. He got chewed out because he didn’t feel his investigator was ready for baptism, but the comp saw the investigator as “Golden” and wanted to push them to baptism. So, comp complained to AP, and mission prez chewed out this “reluctant” missionary. The comp did push, and the investigator balked and wouldn’t see them again. Another “stupid rule” was that as someone who left a successful, money earning, soft rock music, boy band to go on his mission, he was forbidden to use his Spanish guitar to attract young people to the church. The missionaries were pushed to find “young people, especially male young people,” instead of the 80 year old widows who were the only people interested in the church. His guitar, with modern American rock music attracted young men like flies to honey. One week he sat on a street corner in Vienna and played and his comp passed out flyers and they actually made good contacts with young people, young *male* people. (Most of the female young people just swooned over the good looking American) And as soon as the mission president found out HOW he had attracted several investigators under the age of 80 to hear the discussions, with his evil rock music of Elvis, Beach Boys, and hymns on guitar, he was ordered to box the guitar until he was home. No more investigators under 80. We can’t have investigators who like popular music, because anything young people like is evil, but bring us young people.

So, my first introduction to this rule was in 1970 by two returned missionaries that I respected who thought the rule was stupid and refused to follow it.

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