LDS church in the news

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Angel
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LDS church in the news

Post by Angel » Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:09 am

In case no one else posted it?

Nightline - ABC, last night:

https://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/ ... card_image

https://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/ ... card_image

newer document than I had seen before: https://archive.org/details/INSTANCESOF ... ESUSCHRIST


And.... in other news...

https://www.abc4.com/news/top-stories/h ... T4ki72OOQU



Led by God? hmmm....
Last edited by Angel on Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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2bizE
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Re: LDS church in the news

Post by 2bizE » Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:33 pm

It’s time they stopped that whole trek thing. It is unnecessary and puts lives at risk
~2bizE

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Hagoth
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Re: LDS church in the news

Post by Hagoth » Sun Jun 30, 2019 6:28 am

2bizE wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:33 pm
It’s time they stopped that whole trek thing. It is unnecessary and puts lives at risk
Every time our stake does it a couple of kids have to be taken to the hospital in an ambulance. Members seem to find that amusing.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

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deacon blues
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Re: LDS church in the news

Post by deacon blues » Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:15 am

I think Brother Brigham would say, “Today’s youth just need to toughen up. :roll:
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.

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Angel
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Re: LDS church in the news

Post by Angel » Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:42 pm

Hagoth wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 6:28 am
2bizE wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:33 pm
It’s time they stopped that whole trek thing. It is unnecessary and puts lives at risk
Every time our stake does it a couple of kids have to be taken to the hospital in an ambulance. Members seem to find that amusing.
:(
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/chu ... iKPM7b1aso
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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wtfluff
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Re: LDS church in the news

Post by wtfluff » Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:25 pm

Angel wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:42 pm
Hagoth wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 6:28 am
2bizE wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:33 pm
It’s time they stopped that whole trek thing. It is unnecessary and puts lives at risk
Every time our stake does it a couple of kids have to be taken to the hospital in an ambulance. Members seem to find that amusing.
:(
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/chu ... iKPM7b1aso
Yep. I've mentioned that young lady dying elsewhere.

I just don't get why they keep doing this. There MUST be someone near the top of the hierarchy making money off of these completely stupid re-enactments.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

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Corsair
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Re: LDS church in the news

Post by Corsair » Mon Jul 01, 2019 11:27 am

wtfluff wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:25 pm
I just don't get why they keep doing this. There MUST be someone near the top of the hierarchy making money off of these completely stupid re-enactments.
I will keep a reference to the Pioneer Trek heatstroke story because my stake is doing a Pioneer Trek next summer. I'm in a YM Presidency so I will be involved. And I hope to be a voice of sanity that keeps our stake out of the news in this way.

"Brother Corsair, why do you keep on insisting that we bring extra water? That's like a gallon of water per person per day that you want us to bring! That's a lot of water to transport!"

"These are city kids in the AZ summer at high elevation. Do you want to be on CNN Headline News? This is how you get on CNN Headline News."

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MoPag
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Re: LDS church in the news

Post by MoPag » Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:37 pm

wtfluff wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:25 pm

I just don't get why they keep doing this. There MUST be someone near the top of the hierarchy making money off of these completely stupid re-enactments.
I've never thought about it like this but I bet it's true!!!!! I wonder if it is Ponderize Guy? Does he have a handcart side hustle?
Corsair wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 11:27 am


"These are city kids in the AZ summer at high elevation. Do you want to be on CNN Headline News? This is how you get on CNN Headline News."
I hope you say this in Archer's voice! :lol:
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

Anon70
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Re: LDS church in the news

Post by Anon70 » Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:39 am

Corsair wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 11:27 am
wtfluff wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:25 pm
I just don't get why they keep doing this. There MUST be someone near the top of the hierarchy making money off of these completely stupid re-enactments.
I will keep a reference to the Pioneer Trek heatstroke story because my stake is doing a Pioneer Trek next summer. I'm in a YM Presidency so I will be involved. And I hope to be a voice of sanity that keeps our stake out of the news in this way.

"Brother Corsair, why do you keep on insisting that we bring extra water? That's like a gallon of water per person per day that you want us to bring! That's a lot of water to transport!"

"These are city kids in the AZ summer at high elevation. Do you want to be on CNN Headline News? This is how you get on CNN Headline News."
I just found out we’re doing one next year too and I was the only person who said, “why? Why are we glorifying poor decisions and outcomes from our past?” No one was pleased. I shared a link to the latest article of 300 plus heat stroke victims. No comment. And then I offered to be replaced (released) by someone who could support it.

I was told to pray about it and I would come to know by the spirit that treks are true. I said “sure, until they aren’t (remember road shows, pageants, youth celebrations)”. Again, no one was pleased with my remark.

So, I’m praying...for that release.

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Not Buying It
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Re: LDS church in the news

Post by Not Buying It » Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:47 am

Anon70 wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:39 am
I just found out we’re doing one next year too and I was the only person who said, “why? Why are we glorifying poor decisions and outcomes from our past?” No one was pleased. I shared a link to the latest article of 300 plus heat stroke victims. No comment. And then I offered to be replaced (released) by someone who could support it.
You are spot on. The handcarts were an epic disaster. There were only ten handcart companies, and two of them were decimated in the Willie Martin Handcart fiasco. Fewer than 10% of the Utah pioneers made the trek with handcarts, but that’s what the Church loves to celebrate. Why? It instills in youth the idea “I hate pulling this handcart in the heat, but if people were able to do this for the Church, well, the Church must be true”. Faith in every footstep.

It’s an effective indoctrination tactic.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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Angel
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Re: LDS church in the news

Post by Angel » Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:14 am

:lol: :lol: ... only it isn't funny... but :lol: it's better to just laugh sometimes than let things get you down.

I love backpacking trips - enjoying nature - but, wow - force me to wear some horrible dress and bonnet, replace a reasonable backpack with shoddy clunky cart and.... wow... now the kids have learned to hate nature:(

Can't we have a "lessons learned" trek? I guess this is what happens when the church cannot admit a mistake ... history repeats itself until the lesson is learned ;)
“You have learned something...That always feels at first as if you have lost something.” George Bernard Shaw
When it is dark enough, you can see the stars. ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Corsair
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Re: LDS church in the news

Post by Corsair » Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:17 am

Angel wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:14 am
Can't we have a "lessons learned" trek? I guess this is what happens when the church cannot admit a mistake ... history repeats itself until the lesson is learned ;)
"Lessons Learned" would be a great direction for future lessons within the institutional church. There are plenty of instances where some really good lessons should be learned. But the instances would all not look good for the church. The Handcart disaster would be a good lesson. The Mountain Meadows Massacre should be a lesson in following good principles an understanding outsiders along with basic kindness. The Priesthood Ban should be a lesson in truly understanding history and the view that God truly has for His children.

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Just This Guy
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Re: LDS church in the news

Post by Just This Guy » Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:20 am

Angel wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:14 am
Can't we have a "lessons learned" trek? I guess this is what happens when the church cannot admit a mistake ... history repeats itself until the lesson is learned ;)

Lesson learned? Wait a could years and the rail road will make hand carts totally obsolete.

One thing that is interesting is that even after the disaster of the Willie and Martin companies, they still didn't really learn their lesson about the need of proper logistical support system. The later companies nearly turned into disasters when the supply chain system broke down. The fact that they were in the summer was probably the only thing that saved then since supplies could keep moving.

One of those companies, in 1857, was helped by US Troops who themselves were on their way out to Utah as part of the buildup to the Utah War.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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alas
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Re: LDS church in the news

Post by alas » Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:35 am

Not Buying It wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:47 am
Anon70 wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:39 am
I just found out we’re doing one next year too and I was the only person who said, “why? Why are we glorifying poor decisions and outcomes from our past?” No one was pleased. I shared a link to the latest article of 300 plus heat stroke victims. No comment. And then I offered to be replaced (released) by someone who could support it.
You are spot on. The handcarts were an epic disaster. There were only ten handcart companies, and two of them were decimated in the Willie Martin Handcart fiasco. Fewer than 10% of the Utah pioneers made the trek with handcarts, but that’s what the Church loves to celebrate. Why? It instills in youth the idea “I hate pulling this handcart in the heat, but if people were able to do this for the Church, well, the Church must be true”. Faith in every footstep.

It’s an effective indoctrination tactic.
It is worse than that two of the ten handcart companies were disasters. Three out of the ten were caught in the snow and out of food. My ancestors and my husband’s ancestors were with #8, one week ahead of Martin and two weeks ahead of Willie. Both my ancestor and my husbands were keeping journals, so there *IS* documentation in case some idiot wants to argue with me that only the two hand cart companies got snowed on. (It has happened frequently, that someone tries to call my grandpa a liar because church history white washed them out of existence) They had more deaths in that handcart company than all the previous ones, they got snow, had toes amputated because of frostbite, ran out of food and basically the same disasters as Martin and Willie, but they are neglected in the history because by comparison, their disaster was so much less. That additional week of snow slowed Martin and Willie even further and what was one week behind became more. And, hey, Fort Laramie had no food to sell when my ancestors got there and Laramie to Salt Lake City is a hell of a long walk across the high plains of Wyoming, some of it in the snow with no food. The idea that they were depending on Fort Laramie selling them food is also seldom mentioned. Of course, Fort Laramie had no idea that several hundred people were coming planning on buying food from them.

My sister in law, and her husband are trek missionaries for the last 4 years and they love it. They trail just behind the trekkers, on ATVs, carrying extra water and food and medical supplies. They make sure the groups they lead are safe, and have had few problems. They work on the church’s ranch in Wyoming, up just south of Evanston.

They read every night from my g g grandpa’s journal. Funny, but their first year, they asked me, “Is Joseph (my maiden name) related to you?” His journal tells about the snow, the people they buried, and being out of food, and remember, he was not with Martin or Willie, but in the company ahead of them. But they use his journal to describe what the people were dealing with who were in Martin and Willie.

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Not Buying It
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Re: LDS church in the news

Post by Not Buying It » Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:55 am

alas wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:35 am
Not Buying It wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:47 am
Anon70 wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:39 am
I just found out we’re doing one next year too and I was the only person who said, “why? Why are we glorifying poor decisions and outcomes from our past?” No one was pleased. I shared a link to the latest article of 300 plus heat stroke victims. No comment. And then I offered to be replaced (released) by someone who could support it.
You are spot on. The handcarts were an epic disaster. There were only ten handcart companies, and two of them were decimated in the Willie Martin Handcart fiasco. Fewer than 10% of the Utah pioneers made the trek with handcarts, but that’s what the Church loves to celebrate. Why? It instills in youth the idea “I hate pulling this handcart in the heat, but if people were able to do this for the Church, well, the Church must be true”. Faith in every footstep.

It’s an effective indoctrination tactic.
It is worse than that two of the ten handcart companies were disasters. Three out of the ten were caught in the snow and out of food. My ancestors and my husband’s ancestors were with #8, one week ahead of Martin and two weeks ahead of Willie. Both my ancestor and my husbands were keeping journals, so there *IS* documentation in case some idiot wants to argue with me that only the two hand cart companies got snowed on. (It has happened frequently, that someone tries to call my grandpa a liar because church history white washed them out of existence) They had more deaths in that handcart company than all the previous ones, they got snow, had toes amputated because of frostbite, ran out of food and basically the same disasters as Martin and Willie, but they are neglected in the history because by comparison, their disaster was so much less. That additional week of snow slowed Martin and Willie even further and what was one week behind became more. And, hey, Fort Laramie had no food to sell when my ancestors got there and Laramie to Salt Lake City is a hell of a long walk across the high plains of Wyoming, some of it in the snow with no food. The idea that they were depending on Fort Laramie selling them food is also seldom mentioned. Of course, Fort Laramie had no idea that several hundred people were coming planning on buying food from them.

My sister in law, and her husband are trek missionaries for the last 4 years and they love it. They trail just behind the trekkers, on ATVs, carrying extra water and food and medical supplies. They make sure the groups they lead are safe, and have had few problems. They work on the church’s ranch in Wyoming, up just south of Evanston.

They read every night from my g g grandpa’s journal. Funny, but their first year, they asked me, “Is Joseph (my maiden name) related to you?” His journal tells about the snow, the people they buried, and being out of food, and remember, he was not with Martin or Willie, but in the company ahead of them. But they use his journal to describe what the people were dealing with who were in Martin and Willie.
I had no idea there was a third company involved in that fatal mess. You are lucky your g g grandpa survived so you could be born.

Tell you what, it takes one hell of a messed up organization to take that amount of needless suffering and that level of galactically incompetent leadership and spin it into a faith promoting experience. They are using it to indoctrinate young members with the EXACT OPPOSITE of the lessons that should have been learned from it.
"The truth is elegantly simple. The lie needs complex apologia. 4 simple words: Joe made it up. It answers everything with the perfect simplicity of Occam's Razor. Every convoluted excuse withers." - Some guy on Reddit called disposazelph

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wtfluff
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Re: LDS church in the news

Post by wtfluff » Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:46 am

Not Buying It wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:55 am
Tell you what, it takes one hell of a messed up organization to take that amount of needless suffering and that level of galactically incompetent leadership and spin it into a faith promoting experience. They are using it to indoctrinate young members with the EXACT OPPOSITE of the lessons that should have been learned from it.
I always like to ask the question: Why don't surviving relatives of the Donner Party celebrate that disaster constantly? Why don't they get their children to reenact the disaster as often as possible? Why don't they use the disaster as a constant guilt trip and tell folks today that they should be more like the Donner Party?

(Maybe Donner relatives do all of the crazy stuff that MORmONs do and I don't know about it?)
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

IDKSAF -RubinHighlander

You can surrender without a prayer...

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Red Ryder
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Re: LDS church in the news

Post by Red Ryder » Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:12 am

Sometimes we forget the early saints weren’t exactly the best and brightest with a plethora of opportunities. Mormonism provided a community and support system for a lot of immigrants who had no better options available.

The faith of these saints we look to today as faithful examples may have been based on something as simple as “we ain’t got nutting no betta to go.... we ain’t ganna starve.

Joseph became a leader of the poor, downtrodden, immigrants who gave their hearts and souls to building up the Kingdom of God’s future real estate corporation.
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy

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Just This Guy
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Re: LDS church in the news

Post by Just This Guy » Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:24 pm

alas wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:35 am
Not Buying It wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:47 am
Anon70 wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:39 am
I just found out we’re doing one next year too and I was the only person who said, “why? Why are we glorifying poor decisions and outcomes from our past?” No one was pleased. I shared a link to the latest article of 300 plus heat stroke victims. No comment. And then I offered to be replaced (released) by someone who could support it.
You are spot on. The handcarts were an epic disaster. There were only ten handcart companies, and two of them were decimated in the Willie Martin Handcart fiasco. Fewer than 10% of the Utah pioneers made the trek with handcarts, but that’s what the Church loves to celebrate. Why? It instills in youth the idea “I hate pulling this handcart in the heat, but if people were able to do this for the Church, well, the Church must be true”. Faith in every footstep.

It’s an effective indoctrination tactic.
It is worse than that two of the ten handcart companies were disasters. Three out of the ten were caught in the snow and out of food. My ancestors and my husband’s ancestors were with #8, one week ahead of Martin and two weeks ahead of Willie. Both my ancestor and my husbands were keeping journals, so there *IS* documentation in case some idiot wants to argue with me that only the two hand cart companies got snowed on. (It has happened frequently, that someone tries to call my grandpa a liar because church history white washed them out of existence) They had more deaths in that handcart company than all the previous ones, they got snow, had toes amputated because of frostbite, ran out of food and basically the same disasters as Martin and Willie, but they are neglected in the history because by comparison, their disaster was so much less. That additional week of snow slowed Martin and Willie even further and what was one week behind became more. And, hey, Fort Laramie had no food to sell when my ancestors got there and Laramie to Salt Lake City is a hell of a long walk across the high plains of Wyoming, some of it in the snow with no food. The idea that they were depending on Fort Laramie selling them food is also seldom mentioned. Of course, Fort Laramie had no idea that several hundred people were coming planning on buying food from them.

I think that many people don't realize just how brutal that part of the country can be. To reference a different thread: (viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4384) In the high Rockies, most of the year there is still snow on the ground. Even in early June. Heck, when I lived in Utah, there were some years where you could go skiing on the 4th of July. If they have snow in early summer, Fall is going to be worse. You have a very narrow window of warm weather to get through (3-4 months on average). BY tried to push through as many people as possible, but not fund the logistics chain needed to make it work.
"The story so far: In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

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