The Letter.

This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
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Newme
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Re: The Letter.

Post by Newme » Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:34 am

Every time they send you anything preachy, again affirm how you love them before and after and send them something that might help expand their view, like...

Forensic Anthropologist creation of what Christ may have looked like:
https://youtu.be/XhLtvYhvbsU

You don’t have to be perfect to be close to God (Steve Harvey after Family Feud):
https://youtu.be/9AvlvuLFZl8

Btw, Your letter sounds good.
Last edited by Newme on Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Newme
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Re: The Letter.

Post by Newme » Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:46 am

(Deleted quote)
Last edited by Newme on Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

20/20hind
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Re: The Letter.

Post by 20/20hind » Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:47 pm

WTF it really sucks you are going through this. I went through the same. What i found worked best for me was using the philosophy of stoicism. You have found what works for you and brings you happiness. People will try and take that away from you because they think their way is the only one. You can't control their actions, but you can control yours.

Can you change their mind set? In all likelihood, probably not. So seek things that you can control that bring happiness in life and ignore their behavior.

I know that it tough, but once you master it life is better! Good luck with everything.

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wtfluff
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Re: The Letter.

Post by wtfluff » Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:08 am

As elsewhere in this thread, please don't quote this post. I don't want to possibly ruffle the Flamily Fluff too much, but I also gotta talk to you, "my peeps'" so this post will likely disappear in the near future.

So... As mentioned above, My reply was sent, ...
<EDITED: Personal FLUFF removal.>


Sigh... Once again, I hate the completely crazy MORmON Flamily dynamics...
Last edited by wtfluff on Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

Brilliant.

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glass shelf
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Re: The Letter.

Post by glass shelf » Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:16 pm

What I've done in these situations is say, "I'm happy to talk about it if you want. Why don't you read (gospel essay of your choice) and get back to me?" 90% of the time, that results in crickets. The other 10% has resulted in some constructive conversations.

You're not required to share all you know about Mormonism with anyone, so just do what makes you comfortable. If you think they're really wanting answers (as opposed to a reconversion mission), then send them some information and leave the ball in their court. Good luck!

Wonderment
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Re: The Letter.

Post by Wonderment » Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:00 pm

Thanks for the reminder not to quote any part of this thread -- good idea.

I'm glad the "parental unit" did not reply with more guilt and shame. But, I'm wondering if the questions they asked are meant to be merely rhetorical and faith-promoting. For example, if they ask, "Have you thought about what will happen in the eternities?" ( a typical thought for people in their mid-80's),
you can calmly reply, "Yes, I have", and leave it that, rather than trying to explain where you differ with every nuanced belief about the afterlife. Set a boundary ( lovingly), by not allowing them any ammunition for further attacks.

Also, I think the suggestion above that you refer them to the gospel essays is a great idea ! That puts the ball in their court, which is also a way of setting a ( loving) boundary. Please let us know what happens ! I'm interested to read about how they respond. -- Wndr.

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wtfluff
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Re: The Letter.

Post by wtfluff » Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:36 pm

Wonderment wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:00 pm
Thanks for the reminder not to quote any part of this thread -- good idea.

I'm glad the "parental unit" did not reply with more guilt and shame. But, I'm wondering if the questions they asked are meant to be merely rhetorical and faith-promoting. For example, if they ask, "Have you thought about what will happen in the eternities?" ( a typical thought for people in their mid-80's),
you can calmly reply, "Yes, I have", and leave it that, rather than trying to explain where you differ with every nuanced belief about the afterlife. Set a boundary ( lovingly), by not allowing them any ammunition for further attacks.

Also, I think the suggestion above that you refer them to the gospel essays is a great idea ! That puts the ball in their court, which is also a way of setting a ( loving) boundary. Please let us know what happens ! I'm interested to read about how they respond. -- Wndr.
Good point about the "rhetorical questions." And yes, there are questions similar to that.

<EDITED for more personal FLUFF removal. Another reply will soon be on it's way.>
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

Brilliant.

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The Beast
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Re: The Letter.

Post by The Beast » Fri Jul 26, 2019 9:32 pm

Fluffster, I hope this works out OK for you. Coming out as inactive/nonbeliever is tough. All the best bro.
Are you on the square? Are you on the level?

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wtfluff
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Re: The Letter.

Post by wtfluff » Sat Jul 27, 2019 12:43 pm

The Beast wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 9:32 pm
Fluffster, I hope this works out OK for you. Coming out as inactive/nonbeliever is tough. All the best bro.
Thank you my Beastly friend. More replies have been sent off into the ether. And now the fluffy waiting game...

I'm sure everything will work out OK eventually, this time in the deep mire of things sucks though. It is nice to have everything out on the table though, and there's always the hope that better lines of communication will open up; But I also will be completely "Not Surprised" if everything returns to what was normal, and we just pretend to ignore the pink polka-dotted tapirs in the room. Now that it's all out there, the social-reject-tapir in me might have a hard time not calling family members out on the sad smile/extended hug when I see them. The future is an undiscovered country... Parts of it will be fun to watch play out.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

Brilliant.

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wtfluff
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Re: The Letter.

Post by wtfluff » Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:45 am

Just an FYI: Be careful what you wish for...
NotPolite.jpg
NotPolite.jpg (82.84 KiB) Viewed 243 times
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

Brilliant.

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Palerider
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Re: The Letter.

Post by Palerider » Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:22 am

WTFluff, this probably doesn't apply in your situation, but for others who might be in a similar situation with younger parents/siblings:

Tell them this:

The highly respected Stephen R. Covey used to say that if an individual can't fully and empathetically understand the other person's point of view and verbalize it to them, there will never be enough trust to create the foundation for an edifying relationship.

After 50 years spent in the church studying the doctrine, working, accepting callings, paying tithing, attending meetings, supporting the brethren and their organization, I feel like I have an excellent understanding of where Mormons are coming from. I understand them very, very well.

So to those who wish to engage me on why I have left the church, here is a list of reading material for those who sincerely want to see things from my current point of view and understand where I'm coming from now.

Please read the material.....

I'll know how sincere and serious you are about my welfare by the effort you make to truly educate yourself in these matters so that we can be fully prepared to have an honest and open discussion about the church rather than my choice of how to live my life.

Then when we have had that conversation and if it goes well, we can then talk about our lives and the choices that we all make during our time here. I look forward with great anticipation to that time.

Hope to hear back from you soon dear loved one. ♥️
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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Red Ryder
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Re: The Letter.

Post by Red Ryder » Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:34 am

I like that approach Palerider.

I’m stealing it.

I have two nephews whose parents are too narrow minded to see the pain they are in as they navigate young adulthood choosing other alternatives to the Mormon expectation.

They say “I love you unconditionally” yet they won’t try to understand why the church doesn’t work for them. Instead they continue to pressure against lifetime Mormon expectations which squeeze and push the child away.

I can see it happening. My nephews can feel it happening. Yet the parents (and the church) have no idea.
Those who do not move do not notice their chains. —Rosa Luxemburg

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wtfluff
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Re: The Letter.

Post by wtfluff » Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:39 am

Thanks Pale.

The following paragraph definitely helps... Adding it to my notes. :D
Palerider wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:22 am
I'll know how sincere and serious you are about my welfare by the effort you make to truly educate yourself in these matters so that we can be fully prepared to have an honest and open discussion about the church rather than my choice of how to live my life.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus

Keep the company of those who seek the truth - run from those who have found it -Václav Havel

Brilliant.

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jfro18
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Re: The Letter.

Post by jfro18 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:42 pm

Palerider wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:22 am

I'll know how sincere and serious you are about my welfare by the effort you make to truly educate yourself in these matters so that we can be fully prepared to have an honest and open discussion about the church rather than my choice of how to live my life.
This is really good, although most members just flat out refuse to read anything that they know will force them into some uncomfortable spots.

But as you said... it's a good line in the sand to let them know that you've been on their side so you *can* understand them, but until they are willing to read just a little bit they have no ability to understand or judge where you are.

I like it... simple and really clear.

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græy
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Re: The Letter.

Post by græy » Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:55 pm

Palerider wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:22 am
The highly respected Stephen R. Covey used to say that if an individual can't fully and empathetically understand the other person's point of view and verbalize it to them, there will never be enough trust to create the foundation for an edifying relationship.

After 50 years spent in the church studying the doctrine, working, accepting callings, paying tithing, attending meetings, supporting the brethren and their organization, I feel like I have an excellent understanding of where Mormons are coming from. I understand them very, very well.

So to those who wish to engage me on why I have left the church, here is a list of reading material for those who sincerely want to see things from my current point of view and understand where I'm coming from now.

Please read the material.....

I'll know how sincere and serious you are about my welfare by the effort you make to truly educate yourself in these matters so that we can be fully prepared to have an honest and open discussion about the church rather than my choice of how to live my life.
This is good. I have found it difficult for most people to separate "the church" and "how to live life." To most TBMs, there is no difference. The church dictates how you live, and you simply cannot discuss life choices without the church being the main factor in those choices. Further, any choices that weren't a direct result of church direction and authority are immediately invalidated.
I'm better than dirt... well most dirt. Not that fancy store bought stuff, I can't compete with that... full of nutrients and everything. -Moe Sizlack

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Palerider
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Re: The Letter.

Post by Palerider » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:55 pm

græy wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:55 pm

This is good. I have found it difficult for most people to separate "the church" and "how to live life." To most TBMs, there is no difference. The church dictates how you live, and you simply cannot discuss life choices without the church being the main factor in those choices. Further, any choices that weren't a direct result of church direction and authority are immediately invalidated.
And here is one of the lies that the church promotes without compunction or logic.

A member's life choices are completely and utterly irrelevant to the truthfulness of the LDS church. Period.

Whether Joseph Smith actually saw God and Jesus Christ on a spring morning has absolutely nothing to do with whether a given member is an adulterer, drug abuser, spouse abuser or heaven forbid....a heretic or an apostate.

Joseph Smith in his time, created a culture to illogically link the rejection of Smith's witness with the moral worthiness of anyone rejecting or critically questioning that story.

In other words, only a moral reprobate would reject or seriously question Joseph's story.

Totally illogical.....and very convenient.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."

"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."

George Washington

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