Is NOM going the direction of some other online groups?

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Advocate
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Re: Is NOM going the direction of some other online groups?

Post by Advocate » Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:01 am

alas wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:07 pm
Blashyrkh wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:27 pm
I am not implying that politics can't be discussed here. However there is a civilized way of approaching it. When someone says "old-white men," yeah I find that offensive being an old-white man. What? Because I am old and white and a man my opinions and views are somehow negated? What if I were to refer to the mayor of SLC who has turned the city into a dump IMO as the ugly, old, rancid dyke? I wouldn't do that in normal conversation. Thats highly uncivilized and offensive. Rather, I would just refer to her as "the mayor of SLC who has turned SLC into a dump." Get it? Just because I find error with the church, which is the main focus of this sight, at least I thought so, does not mean that I have changed my political views. I am still as hard-right as I have ever been. Probably even more so as I gave up my compassionate side when I left the church. Bunch of effeminate, old, white men. 😜
Oh, so we can’t call the church leaders “old white men” but it is OK to call the “effeminate old white men.” :lol: Hey, I know I am one who probably used the “old white men” to describe church leaders. But see, the person in the whole world I love the most is an old white man, what’s worse is he is a Republican old white man. So, I am not using it at all to say that there is anything wrong with old white men as individuals. There are several old white men in my family, in my neighborhood, and on NOM that I really like. The problem with the particular old white men who run the church is that they do not comprehend their own privilege of growing up white, male, and many of them wealthy. And if they didn’t grow up well off, well they are now with all the perks the church gives them that they don’t pay tithing or taxes on lots of it. But the worst thing about them is they live in a bubble that contains a bunch of old white yes-men, and even some yes-women. They have no concept of the poor people they ask to pay tithing before buying groceries for their kids. So, “old white men is the politest thing I could call them, and I am truly sorry if I offended you by implying there is something wrong with old white men. There is nothing wrong with old white men. There is something wrong with living in the world and not respecting or really listening to the needs of people who are not in your demographic, any demographic. I also dislike some people of other demographics who disrespect anyone not in their demographic. I have run into a few blacks like this, and some Mormons, a few Catholics, and some medical doctors who disrespected anyone who wasn’t a doctor.
Cheer up Alas. Things could be worse: the person you love most could be a democrat!

On a more serious note, I'm not sure what someone's race has to do with being wealthy or not. Where I live (SE United States) there are plenty of poor people of all races, and plenty of wealthy people of all races.

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alas
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Re: Is NOM going the direction of some other online groups?

Post by alas » Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:48 am

Advocate wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:01 am
alas wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:07 pm
Blashyrkh wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:27 pm
I am not implying that politics can't be discussed here. However there is a civilized way of approaching it. When someone says "old-white men," yeah I find that offensive being an old-white man. What? Because I am old and white and a man my opinions and views are somehow negated? What if I were to refer to the mayor of SLC who has turned the city into a dump IMO as the ugly, old, rancid dyke? I wouldn't do that in normal conversation. Thats highly uncivilized and offensive. Rather, I would just refer to her as "the mayor of SLC who has turned SLC into a dump." Get it? Just because I find error with the church, which is the main focus of this sight, at least I thought so, does not mean that I have changed my political views. I am still as hard-right as I have ever been. Probably even more so as I gave up my compassionate side when I left the church. Bunch of effeminate, old, white men. 😜
Oh, so we can’t call the church leaders “old white men” but it is OK to call the “effeminate old white men.” :lol: Hey, I know I am one who probably used the “old white men” to describe church leaders. But see, the person in the whole world I love the most is an old white man, what’s worse is he is a Republican old white man. So, I am not using it at all to say that there is anything wrong with old white men as individuals. There are several old white men in my family, in my neighborhood, and on NOM that I really like. The problem with the particular old white men who run the church is that they do not comprehend their own privilege of growing up white, male, and many of them wealthy. And if they didn’t grow up well off, well they are now with all the perks the church gives them that they don’t pay tithing or taxes on lots of it. But the worst thing about them is they live in a bubble that contains a bunch of old white yes-men, and even some yes-women. They have no concept of the poor people they ask to pay tithing before buying groceries for their kids. So, “old white men is the politest thing I could call them, and I am truly sorry if I offended you by implying there is something wrong with old white men. There is nothing wrong with old white men. There is something wrong with living in the world and not respecting or really listening to the needs of people who are not in your demographic, any demographic. I also dislike some people of other demographics who disrespect anyone not in their demographic. I have run into a few blacks like this, and some Mormons, a few Catholics, and some medical doctors who disrespected anyone who wasn’t a doctor.
Cheer up Alas. Things could be worse: the person you love most could be a democrat!

On a more serious note, I'm not sure what someone's race has to do with being wealthy or not. Where I live (SE United States) there are plenty of poor people of all races, and plenty of wealthy people of all races.

Never said race had anything to do with wealth. You must have read your own bias into my comments. I said wealth had to do with becoming a GA. I grew up poorer than the kids down the street who were on welfare, so, yeah, I know there are poor whites and I really don’t see where you think I said anything about race and wealth as any generality. OTHER THAN the general authorities. I said the church leader mostly grew up wealthy, and they all happen to be Caucasian (top 15) if not wealthy, at least middle class and are currently wealthy. I said they live in a bubble surrounded by like minded folk. The only thing that has do do with race is that they exclude anyone who is different than they are.

This is where people are getting criticism of church leaders and taking it as a personal insult. Good grief. You read in what you expected to hear from a liberal. YOUR bias.

Wonderment
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Re: Is NOM going the direction of some other online groups?

Post by Wonderment » Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:48 pm

Just wanted to add -- I'm so grateful for all of our regular posters who take time frequently to post new, interesting, thought-provoking topics for this board. I know it takes time to think of an idea, then write it down here and monitor the responses. You all write so well, with empathy, humor, and understanding. :) :)
I In addition, I want to thank Mocksha the penguin ( Moshka? sp? ) for his funny insights, which are I think are a real day brightener.
We never know when a new NOMie, going through a faith transition, or trying to live authentically in a mixed-faith family, will be cheered and encouraged by our words. THANKS SO MUCH EVERYBODY. :) - Wndr.

Kishkumen
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Re: Is NOM going the direction of some other online groups?

Post by Kishkumen » Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:22 am

My interest/activity on NOM continually reduces with each passing day.

This site was all consuming for me when I first broke my shelf. It served a purpose that I will always be grateful.

But it's purpose has faded from my life now. I mourn losing it from my life, but I can not progress with it.

I am not going to " Bid you adieu". However, I'm just not here as I once was.

Mackman
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Re: Is NOM going the direction of some other online groups?

Post by Mackman » Mon Jul 29, 2019 6:13 pm

I too am very grateful for this site. It has helped me through some really dark times while going through my faith crisis. Some days I think I am done going through it and other days it seems like my crisis is starting all over again so I turn to NOM for support, Love all the Nomies

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MoPag
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Re: Is NOM going the direction of some other online groups?

Post by MoPag » Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:06 pm

jfro18 wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:47 am
Wonderment wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:56 am
Old, white guys are the spawn of Satan and if you don't bow down at the LGBTQ alter then you are an ignorant piece of crap not even worthy of the wasted air you breathe.
What does this mean, and who here has ever attacked white people? I'm not seeing what you're seeing here. Could you give an example of a time when white people were under attack here?

"If you don't bow down at the LGBTQ"......What does this mean? Can you give an example of this happening?
If a NOM speaks up for equal rights of LGBT people, is that bowing down to them?
I can't remember the specific threads, but I know there have been a lot of references made to how all top church leaders are old, white men when we're discussing church policy/doctrine.
*raises arm to the square* It was me! :D
jfro18 wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:47 am
And so I think that comes with it the implication that they can't see the world around them when they're completely surrounded by old, white dudes confirming their world view. It's not bashing white people, but it is bashing that the church has been a white male dominated institution since it was created by Joseph... which does play a big role in many areas such as the ban on backs, women in the church, and LGBT issues.
And this^^^ is what I was going for.

Let's try something that might help--or might turn into another major clusterf@#k

One of my POC (person of color) activist friends explained it like this:

There are "white people" and there are "people who happen to be white."

"White people" think that being white makes them better than non-whites. "People who happen to be white" know that the color of their skin doesn't make them better than anyone else. (I would guess that the vast majority of NOMs fall into the "people who happen to be white.") Try to remember which group you belong to when you read comments where "white" is being used as an adjective.
Let's say you're scrolling along a comments section and see something like this:
Ugh, those white guys...
If you DO NOT believe that your white skin makes you better than non whites--this comment doesn't refer to you. THEY ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT YOU!!!! They are talking about a group of people who may look like you, but don't think like you. The word "white" refers to a way of thinking, not an actual skin color.

If you DO believe that your white skin makes you better than everyone else-- then yes, they are taking about you. Feel free to get offended.

*Disclaimer* As I stated above, this is something my friend told me. He doesn't speak for all POC. Hopefully this might make sense to some of you too.
...walked eye-deep in hell
believing in old men’s lies...--Ezra Pound

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Raylan Givens
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Re: Is NOM going the direction of some other online groups?

Post by Raylan Givens » Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:36 pm

RubinHighlander wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:06 am
This feels akin to the other recent trend we were having a discussion on, the one about if the Youth are actually leaving in droves. Could the slow down on NOM, the fact that most all of us that may have started off on the early days of NOM, have now evolved our faith transitions to the end of the spectrum. Could this be a sign of the slow down in the separation of wheat and tare? Now that the information on the historical facts has been widespread and available for several years now, maybe the spike is over and we are entering an era of flat line for TSCC and it's former members/believers? As NoMos and NOMs, are we running out of things to talk about for TSCC? It's down to their mundane changes now. Unless they do something drastic, like allow gays to marry in the temple, or show their finances, or get rid of garments or the WOW, the rest seems pretty nit picky?

There will always be a percentage of TBMs moving to NOMs but perhaps the surge is over?
You have me thinking. I think there is/will be a serious dip in attendance with millennials, but will remain steady with the generation after (Gen Z, I think?). They now have better materials and many have leaders with a more sympathetic ear, and parents that are more willing to teach and live with nuance.
I also think the upcoming generation of young adults will be less willing to do the mundane silly things and more willing to say no to extra work and callings. They are active but less "dedicated."

I think in 40 years the Mormon church will look like a more progressive version of evangelicalism.

I like this site, don't come much. I guess after NOM 1.0 "burnt down" I found other outlets for Mormon things (podcasts, Reddit, and the occasional D News article). My hubby is out as of last year, and I don't need the support. So if things are slow, perhaps that means this site has success stories? If you consider moving on a success. Thanks all ya'll for the success in supporting others until they feel they can leave.
"Ah, you know, I think you use the Bible to do whatever the hell you like" - Raylan Givens

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Hagoth
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Re: Is NOM going the direction of some other online groups?

Post by Hagoth » Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:35 am

As an old(ish) white man, I just want to say that I think it is perfectly appropriate to refer to the leaders as old white men. Because they are. And because it's merely a way of pointing out that they aren't any kind of special more-than-us beings. They're just old white men like you and me who have no actual authority to make demands about the lives and freedoms of people they make no real effort to understand or sympathize with, or to proclaim ultimate "truths" for the entire planet. There are a lot of great things about being an old white man. Maybe they should just be that. I think my opinion is as valid as anyone's but it doesn't grant me the power to control others, and I happen to believe that those old white men don't have any more actual authority than this old white man. I can express my opinion but I don't demand that anybody accepts it. I believe they should be treated exactly the same.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain

Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."

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SIWL
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Re: Is NOM going the direction of some other online groups?

Post by SIWL » Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:43 pm

This isn't necessarily my goodbye, but my experience is similar to what others have stated. In 2014-2015 I found this place really helpful (almost lifesaving) since I was the only one in my family leaving. So I really miss lots of what was posted before we lost the NOM from that time, and I haven't posted nearly as much since. It probably says something about why that it just took me 20 minutes to get my password reset since I couldn't remember it. I still check in once in a while to see what my old "ward" is up to though.

I really don't think that much about Mormonism anymore. I went through the phases, grieved, studied my arse off, got angry, and now have pretty much just let it be. My family accepts me and my nonbelief as it is and we love each other and life is good. Honestly - the hard part for me was coming to terms with the fact that they may always be part of the Corporation and my teaching and indoctrination of my kids when they were young had lots to do with it - but I'm trying to make peace with that and move on. I find plenty to do on Sundays and I try not to get to worked up over what the church is doing - but I do point out matter of factly the good and bad that I see in it.

So - yes, I miss lots of you people and I still enjoy reading your posts once in a while, but I really don't have anything to add that hasn't already been said (and I originally quit posting because I was taught when you didn't have something good to say, say nothing - haha)

Anyway - hope the place sticks around - still feels like home. So glad NOM was there and I found it when I did.
Through our eyes, the universe is perceiving itself.

For me, it is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. ~ Carl Sagan

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Flaming Meaux
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Re: Is NOM going the direction of some other online groups?

Post by Flaming Meaux » Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:26 pm

After around 13 years, I'm grateful to say that I've largely moved on from Mormonism. I'm just not passionate about the subject matter anymore.

NOM 1.0 was really helpful when I first disaffected in 2006ish. I had the same host of issues with deconstructing my entire worldview and the collateral effects that had on a believing spouse that is common to so many stories here. I spent a number of years obsessing over Mormon doctrine, Mormon history, and Mormon cultural and political hangups almost to the exclusion of other worthwhile things in life. Ultimately, I decided that I couldn't truly 'walk the middle path' (which largely would have been for the benefit of others) and still feel true to myself. Had I gotten more personally out of the middle path or if I had different personal circumstances then maybe I would've lingered longer...

My spouse has become a more liberal Mormon over the years--still believes it to some degree or another, attends church to the extent convenient, but understands where I'm at and doesn't try to convert me any more than I try to deconvert her--even kind enough to request that members visiting my home don't try to reconvert me (not that I particularly mind, it just ends up being really awkward for them). Parents were upset that I left, but then again, most of the rest of my siblings have left now too, so they can either deal with it and maintain a relationship on other common grounds like mature adults (in the case of my Dad) or basically sever any type of relationship other than the most superficial (in the case of my Mom). Not sure that I would've gotten to this generally more positive place by slow-walking my departure from the church. Maybe... but when I was going along with the program everyone around me seemed to just take the perspective of 'this is a phase,' and 'he'll come around,' and 'just keep being an even more religious example to him.' No one wanted to deal with the reality of 'what I was going through' until they had to honestly confront the reality that I just didn't think like they did. Upshot was that after everyone went through all of that when me and one of my older siblings left, the path was well trod when three other siblings decided they'd had enough of Mormonism, too.

Anyway, life moves on. Mormonism was something that was part of my past, but I've come to terms with not believing any of it, and have got past it. I make about a bi-monthly trip around the boards (really only NOM 2.0 and MormonDiscussions now, I think FLAK is fully defunct although it was largely there by 2009ish or so anyway), sometimes not even that frequently, to see if there is anything of interest. Sometimes there is, and in a way reading stuff here is a bit like reading an old journal of my past experiences, but it really does feel like a different time. I don't get worked up enough by the issues anymore to get sufficient passion to post (even on this particular thread, I've stopped in the middle of a post a few times already and got the feeling of 'meh, what's the point of even posting this?), even though I still use the 'message board medium' to communicate on other things I actually still find interest in (which still happens to include religion and politics, just in a forum broader than just disaffected Mormons).

Anyway, hope everyone is well and I'll post this now so I don't just delete it. I wish everyone a pleasant (or if not entirely pleasant, at least a productive) journey along their individual path. If anyone happens to be around Detroit metro and ever wants to chat in person, shoot me a PM because then I will at least get the email notification of it. All the best!
"The truth knocks on the door and you say, 'Go away, I'm looking for the truth,' and so it goes away. Puzzling." -- Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance

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DPRoberts
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Re: Is NOM going the direction of some other online groups?

Post by DPRoberts » Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:56 pm

It may be, alas, but that is not necessarily a bad thing.

It probably means that a lot of us are beyond the obsessive tendencies of early stage 4 faith transition and have moved on to something more healthy. I remember how some of the posters on the old board were driven by their newfound discoveries to the point of being very prolific posters. With the essays plus the many sources of uncorrelated information being more a simple fact of life these days, there may be fewer now who enter such a state of shock as leads to that kind of activity. The news events that drove a lot of posting are probably not as common as they were during the golden age of NOM.

But I am okay with a slightly slower pace here, so long as we maintain the quality. I hold your posts up, alas, as some of the best examples but there are plenty more. NOM is where I learned about stages of faith, for example. I also learned about the undercurrent of abuse in the organization. And from the ladies of NOM I came to grips with the impact of patriarchy and sexism. And I'm only naming a few things.
I still think there are others who will look for a safe place to process their faith transition even if it's not with the same level of activity we have seen before.

Even if we have moved on to a place where we do not devote the kind of time we used to here, I am still grateful to see some good new material most every week. I am grateful to the oldy moldies, as well as the new folks who have caught on to and contributed to the culture and vibe of this particular forum.
When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease to be mistaken or cease to be honest. -anon
The belief that there is only one truth, and that oneself is in possession of it, is the root of all evil in the world. -Max Born

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